BREXIT

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05 Feb 2016 18:00 by Jarvi Star rating in Halifax UK. 446 posts Send private message

MickyFinn

You know absolutely nothing about me, nothing about what I do or do not know about the EU. What we signed up to around 40 years ago is not what we have now..BTW I voted Conservative at the last election as I believed that was the best option for our country. I have never or would never vote for UKIP. Iceland, Norway and Liechtenstein are not in the EU but are in the EEA which have reciprocal agreements for healthcare. Switzerland is in neither the EU or EEA but the same applies.  I suggest you stop scaremongering and get your facts right.





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05 Feb 2016 18:24 by Mickyfinn Star rating. 1314 posts Send private message

No personal slight intended Javi. If you felt that it was I apologise. Your post was one I have heard many times, even from politicians. I wanted to illustrate that your views are held by a large section of the UK population.

I actually believe the UK will vote to leave. OK by a small margin. I also think as a consequence business investment and UK economic growth will stall at least in the short term. I'm not scaremongering just pointing out some realities as I see them.





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05 Feb 2016 19:47 by Roberto Star rating in Torremolinos. 4074 posts Send private message

Roberto´s avatar

Interesting discussion, and one that I'm trying to simply enjoy following without getting drawn into! Particularly enjoyed the comparison of the EU to the Eurovision laugh

Micky, could you clarify this: "Pensioners beyond retirement age living within the EU will be hurt the most. I simply don’t believe EU states will allow their free universal healthcare to continue if it's then not reciprocated in the UK. Will the British government allow EU migrants free healthcare if they move outside the EU? I don’t think so."

Apart from perhaps Portugal (and of course the UK), which EU countries currently offer "universal free healthcare"? Why would British pensioners in Spain not get free healthcare? It's paid for by the UK now anyway. Why would the UK not "reciprocate"? It currently already guarantees free NHS to anyone who is resident, EU citizen or otherwise. Why would the UK offer free healthcare to "EU migrants....if they move outside the EU"? It doesn't now.

Not questioning the veracity of your statements - just struggling to understand them. 

Personally (damn, I said I wasn't going to get drawn into this!) I think this is all fairly academic, since as someone else pointed out, regardless of the result of a referendum, UK will be staying in the EU because that's what the Powers That Be want. It's not really up to the electorate. If they vote to leave, the figures will either be fiddled, or there'll just be another one after much campaigning and lying, in order to achieve the desired result.



_______________________

 

"First get your facts; then you can distort them at your leisure"

Mark Twain

 

 

 




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05 Feb 2016 20:05 by Roberto Star rating in Torremolinos. 4074 posts Send private message

Roberto´s avatar

The issue really boils down to each member country being obliged to give the same to all EU citizens living within their borders.

Tadd's comment seems like one of the more sensible I've read. "Another way to stop non British EU citizens getting over generous UK benefits is to overhaul the UK benefits system". Can anyone explain to me child benefits anyway? If the idea of it is to encourage people to have kids to counter our ever-ageing population (to produce more young taxpayers to fund their retirement), then stopping payments (or reducing them) to UK migrants with kids in other countries will surely only touch the tip of the iceberg? What about all the UK born & bred sperm banks living on benefits who churn out illegitimate brats purely to get more benefits? These are hardly likely to ever become productive (tax paying) members of society; rather, they will simply replicate their mother's lifestyle of living on benefits, adding to the problem, not helping solve it. Scrap child benefit altogether, and Cameron can save himself a lot of time and effort negotiating in Brussels. Job done!



_______________________

 

"First get your facts; then you can distort them at your leisure"

Mark Twain

 

 

 




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05 Feb 2016 20:17 by Mickyfinn Star rating. 1314 posts Send private message

If the British vote to leave the EU then that’s what will happen. It’s a legally binding obligation for government and could not be changed save a revolution.

All healthcare concessions in the EU exist because of treaties signed between member states. Treaties arrived at because of membership of the club. If that membership is withdrawn by the British all existing treaties will cease and need to be renegotiated.

In other  words the British concessions cease on exit but so do the other EU states advantages within the UK. There then becomes a new European order.

Of course it may well be the case that existing arrangements may be readopted in new concession negotiations and then new treaties signed but there are no guarantees.





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05 Feb 2016 20:30 by ads Star rating. 2987 posts Send private message

BigA12015,

I understand and can relate to your cynicism but getting politicians to place their clarification on record is one step towards accountability and it's for others thereafter to reflect, debate and take issue where applicable.

Isn't this better than debating on surmise, which in itself is a form of falsehood?

 


This message was last edited by ads on 05/02/2016.



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05 Feb 2016 23:18 by randolph Star rating. 168 posts Send private message

06 Feb 2016 01:30 by ads Star rating. 2987 posts Send private message

Voters need to be provided with far more facts from both camps (in or out) rather than base their decision on false assumptions.





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06 Feb 2016 09:19 by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1778 posts Send private message

Mickyfinn

All healthcare concessions in the EU exist because of treaties signed between member states. Treaties arrived at because of membership of the club. If that membership is withdrawn by the British all existing treaties will cease and need to be renegotiated.

This is not true as the EEA countries have signed similar treaties also UK has soem 14,000 treaties across the globe

You may also want to look a this  

http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Healthcareabroad/countryguide/NonEEAcountries/Pages/Non-EEAcountries.aspx

ads has it spot on

Voters need to be provided with far more facts from both camps (in or out) rather than base their decision on false assumptions.

Roberto

It is not just about child benefit which used to be called family allowance  (I also think the Spanish have a similar system but linked to tax allowances not 100% sure). In the UK CB is payable to any depedant children under the age of 18 subject to income being less than £60K pa or where they live for example a father working in UK (commuting) and his family living in Spain would be entitled to CB as long as he does not earn more than £60K per year. See link for rates

https://www.gov.uk/child-benefit-rates

There are many other over generous benefits (tax credits, housing alowances etc) which shoudlbe culled across teh board and get these lazy benefit scrounging brits to get on ther bike and get to work

 

 



_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”



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06 Feb 2016 10:24 by Mickyfinn Star rating. 1314 posts Send private message

Yes Tadd I realise EEA treaties exist in the same way that provide memebership of the single market. However what we are facing in Britain is an exit from full EU membership. Nothing has yet been said about the UK signing up for EEA treaties. I'm sure the UK will try to do that in the event of a Brixit. However agreement to that is up to the rest of Europe. They could in theory at least say no. 'You voted to leave so on your bike.'

In any case EEA membership involves agreeing to exactly the same legal terms of EU full membership but without the same representation or voting power. No power but full obligatory responsibility.

Why would British voters choose to reject first class membership and then agree to a second class status? The only advantage to that involves making fewer contributions to the EU budget. 

Here is an interesting article on the EEA and the consequences of Brixit.

fortune.com/2015/10/07/what-will-happen-in-a-brexit/

I agree the UK has similar treaties in other parts of the world for healthcare emergencies. That is not the same thing as full medical treatment for retirees on the basis of citizenship as with current agreements with the EU.

 


This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 06/02/2016.


This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 06/02/2016.



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06 Feb 2016 11:11 by Mickyfinn Star rating. 1314 posts Send private message

Read what other expats in the EU think of Brexit. Further down the page is relevant to Spain.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/17/brexit-british-seeking-second-passport-europe-eu-referendum





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06 Feb 2016 12:33 by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1778 posts Send private message

mickyfinn

you have some good points and I do not know the details of all trerties but what I do understand is that the reciprocal healh care and double tax treaties between UK and Spain are between 2 states who happen to be members of the EU - yes the EU may support and encourage the treaties but at the end of the day they are betwen 2 separate nations and they will  remian post any exit unless either Spain and / or the UK wish to renegotiate and either way the EU wil have no say the same way the EU has no say with the treaties between UK and other non EU / EEA countries or Spains treaties with  EU / EEA and non EU / EEA countries which Spain also have many

I have read many articles on what expats and UK residents think and at best it is guess work and at worst scaremongering. Nobody seems to know for sure as to what we are going to vote for or against which is the real worry as far too many people will be making a decision based on what the daily rags and other scaremongers say about immigration, EU funding, benefits, the £ , the pint, the mile, sovereignty, the stupid nationalistic selfish, brainwashed and arrogant attitude that the brits have and think they are better than anyone else etc etc

An example of this stupidity and arrogance is that celebration plans are being made with movies, interviews, re runs, documentaries, sepcial edition coins and stamps, statues etc etc for the 50th aniverssary of the 1966 world cup success - how pathetic a nation that will make us (yes it is only England but the rest of the UK will be mocked just as much and tarred with the same brush ) the brits mentality simply cannot look forward and they have to look backwards all the time and use history to increase boost arrogance ego



_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”



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06 Feb 2016 12:50 by Jarvi Star rating in Halifax UK. 446 posts Send private message

The Prime Minister and others think that we should stay in the EU as inside it we will have more influence.What influence?  I wonder how many times the UK has managed to influence all the others to vote for something that might be in the interest of the UK, not many I think? Compare that to how many times we have been out-voted by the rest for their self-interests. If the EU want to enforce something they do it, no matter what people want.

Also remember when Gordon Brown gave up our rebate with a promise from the EU that they would "look at" the common agricultural policy, what happened? Are they still "looking at" it as promised? I very much doubt it.

 





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06 Feb 2016 14:00 by Mickyfinn Star rating. 1314 posts Send private message

Tadd. I think you may find existing treaties between Spain, UK and other EU states are because of mutual EU membership, it being a requirement so to do.

Here is some good news!

Under The Vienna Convention 1969 there are legal articles that are based on ‘acquired rights’, which individuals build up over time and hold despite any changes in future treaties enacted by their nation. 

Therefore, the EU’s freedom of movement rights would be honored for all those citizens who reside in other EEA nations prior to any treaty changes. This works both ways, and the UK’s Vienna Convention obligations would prevent any government from deporting migrants who came to the UK under the old system. These acquired rights extend to free entry into the states healthcare for existing retired expats ALREADY REGISTERED AS RESIDENTS. The NHS would continue to be responsible for the costs involved.

So all those Brits living in Spain under the radar and unregistered may well have a problem if Brexit succeeds.

 


This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 06/02/2016.



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06 Feb 2016 15:45 by Roberto Star rating in Torremolinos. 4074 posts Send private message

Roberto´s avatar

There are some very interesting points being made here by people who clearly know far more about the whole thing than I do - but Micky, I am still really struggling to understand what the hell you're saying in some of your posts: "So all those Brits living in Spain under the radar and unregistered may well have a problem if Brexit succeeds." What does this mean? Brits living in Spain but not registered as residents either have private health care, or already have a problem in the event of serious illness. If they are still capable, they can of course high-tail it back to Blighty for treatment on the NHS. What would change if the UK left the EU? To all intents and purposes, these people you mention are effectively UK residents on long term holiday in Spain. Am I missing something?



_______________________

 

"First get your facts; then you can distort them at your leisure"

Mark Twain

 

 

 




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06 Feb 2016 17:29 by jontymellor Star rating in Warrington & Cabo R.... 144 posts Send private message

I'm one of the many that do not reside in Spain full time but take advantage of the EU freedom of movement, I have a property in Spain I spend no more than 6 months here, or around Europe, I'm 60 and took early retirement, I have a Spanish reg car and use EU insurance for it because of the unlimited time to drive in EU countries uk included on this, I fell foul of the new NHS rule for S1 healthcare for early retirees, so I use long term holiday insurance, I spend time in all EU countries, as it is a cheap way of life, and enjoyable, I'm also registered disabled.

if we leave the EU, I will have to return to theUK housing market, as full time living with my children is not possible, so as many in sin I would have to return to the uk, each year less people would move away from the UK, so do the papers that are driving the leaving of the EU, realise the possible 100,000 reduction of imergrants per year will be far out wade by the unregistered EU expats retuning to the UK, a lot in retirement and state dependant, people like myself who will need to stay in the uk, and would need to return to the state system, I need housing and then mobility again all that brings, you may say I and others have assets, which are around 40-50% of what we bought them for, and with all the above happening, selling our properties will be harder and at a lower cost than now!

up to 1 million returning expats plus the annual amount that may have left, that maybe 100,000 is nothing!



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I Live in Warrington & Cabo Roig



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06 Feb 2016 17:37 by Mickyfinn Star rating. 1314 posts Send private message

Roberto - I guess they won't have a problem if they continue to live illegally in Spain after Brexit until they have a problem if you can grasp my meaning.wink

Long ago I used to live in Turkey and had to renew my visa every three months or face fines when I tried to leave...In theory that's a possibility in Spain for unregistered Brits but probably unlikely..The Spanish tend not to bother too much with such legal niceties. It will depend on what arrangements are put in place after Brexit.

The point about the Vienna Convention is it gives existing legal residents assurance that the same advantages as being in the EU if Britain leaves. The unregistered Brits who wish to become residents will possibly have to apply for a visa along the lines of say someone in Thailand.

It’s all speculation I admit that but the possibility of difficulties after Brexit are real.

Exploring potential solutions is an interesting academic exercise until it actually takes place.





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06 Feb 2016 18:14 by baz1946 Star rating. 1801 posts Send private message

Why aren't the ministers who still want in not scare-mongering of the possibility that the EU freedom of movement would be stopped along with many other stoppages, after all these could be a real vote winner for the stay in bunch, or maybe the truth is they haven't a clue what would happen in reality, guess work at best?

When Cameron gets up to speak about leaving he loves the 'We will be safer in then out" how does that work then? does he honestly believe that terrorist threats wont be exchanged with the remaining in crowd, what does he mean by safer, does he mean the EU will support us like it hasn't so far, Cameron has hardly any logical answer or reason to stay because most of the electorate know full well that he wants in to meet his own needs in the long run.

I have said we wont leave and I firmly believe this, when Blair was campaigning for yet another term who met anyone that was going to vote him in, yet he won, they will no doubt however hard it seems to believe, fix the figures to stay.

It's also well to remember that when any bank starts to give the "It's" knowledgeable information of the forth coming doomsday scenario connected to leaving, someone should make mention they never saw what would happen due to the balls up they were involved in and are still in.

Sadly we have to believe we are in a democratic free speech society, we are, provided we do as they say, which is whats best for us.

I am out....But I accept I will be in.

 





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06 Feb 2016 19:10 by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1778 posts Send private message

mickyfinn

Tadd. I think you may find existing treaties between Spain, UK and other EU states are because of mutual EU membership, it being a requirement so to do.

It may be a requirement for EU members but that does not mean it will be removed if any party decdies to leaveth EU and can be just as valid as long as both countires agree in the same way treaties exist between EU countreis and none EU / EEA countries

I would guess the one thing that Brits could lose is the EHIC card

As for the comments on visas again prior to the EU visa's were not a requirement based on treaties and visa waivers the first time I came to Spain on holiday we were not in the EU and we did not need a visa to enter and if i recall temp 1 year passorts from the PO were the norm - maybe we would require residencias to live in Spain though as non EU / EEA citizens currently do

People are really grasping at straws and very doom and gloom without thinking and remembering where we were before EU

Cameron truly has in won agenda to line his and his croneis pockets as most poilticians

Too many questions niot enoigh answers

Too much guessing and scaremongering

I want to stay but fear the thickos in the UK will vote to leave for teh wrong reasons

As I have said before what is teh dfiffenrce between a 4 state union teh UK (or teh union in teh Netherlands) to a 30 plus EU, working toghethr and helping those less fortunate than ourselves.

How different is the EU supporting a poorer nation to a wealthy area of the UK supporting a poorer area or even teh welahty areas of a city supporting a porrer area of the same city?

devolution is a backward step for humanity and if we leave the EU we will continue on a downward spiral of greed and selfishness and will cause many more problems, poverty and suffering for many more people than even the EU in its current state does



_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”



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06 Feb 2016 19:52 by Mickyfinn Star rating. 1314 posts Send private message

I agree with most of your post Tadd. I cannot see any advantage for the UK outside the union. It is significant if you consider who the supporters for leaving actually are. Basically reconstituted flag waving Thatcherites and they who are against immigration from anywhere. Their arguments for leaving have little intellectual rigour or  real understanding of the issues at stake.

Main stream political parties, business leaders and crucially international investors all want the UK to remain in the UK.

Cameron is a hostage to fortune in that he had little choice to give his back benchers the vote. At least if the UK votes to remain in the EU, like the Scottish vote it will be killed off for a generation.  It’s a risk worth taking in pure political terms.





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