BREXIT

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13 Nov 2016 6:10 PM by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message

Well said the Mods.

I only take part in forums to try and extend my understanding of other people’s views and opinions. I live a rather sheltered life these days and forums do often give you another perspective. However when posters take what you write and twist it to illustrate an entirely different point that suites their own agenda and which you did not intend it's rather annoying. Then if you take issue with it, off sparks all manner of idiocy and wasted time.

I understand contributors all have differing motives for taking part in forums some of them spurious but let’s keep to the subject matter and not attack contributors personally.

Who or what they are does not matter, it's their constructive ideas that do. The rest you can easily ignore.

Brexit is the single most important political and economic dynamic that will impact peoples lives for years to come. It deserves at least decent intelligent debate.



_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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13 Nov 2016 7:16 PM by hugh_man Star rating in Kent/Roda . 1593 posts Send private message

hugh_man´s avatar

I don't understand how it can be classed as misrepresentation when some posters suggest that the EU model is not and indeed has not worked for a great majority of its people.

Surely being brave enough to leave and try another way, is to be applauded and encouraged even if it will take some time to sort out the arrangements to appeal to both sides, both of whom will lose some advantages but gain others.

Europe does need to change, perhaps Greece would be on the road to recovery had they left earlier.

The bureaucrats running it, don't want change, they cannot see what their policies have done to Southern countries and their intransigence will eventually be their do fall.

Communication and listening to its people and States would have been the intelligent option but no they continue with their policies that caused the rifts in the first place.

 

Perhaps the US voters have also got it wrong but they are trying to tell the powers that be that change is necessary.

Only hope is that the various houses in Washington can reign in Trumps mad ideas.

It will be interesting to see Republicans voting against their President just as they have against Obama for too long.

 





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13 Nov 2016 7:19 PM by windtalker Star rating. 1934 posts Send private message

This thread must hold the world record for repeated answers and questions over and over and over again and again their is nothing more to add or ask that has not been ask a thousand times before .unless you know how to stop mass emigration in to the UK then Brexit is the answer.

 


This message was last edited by windtalker on 13/11/2016.



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13 Nov 2016 8:40 PM by ads Star rating. 4122 posts Send private message

Good posting Hugh man. 

One aspect that I would be interested to hear are constructive  thoughts by those who voted to remain re what they would like to see reformed, both in the UK and EU post Brexit, and honest observations how this could be achieved, at the same as ensuring tolerance and respect for one another, migrants and nationals alike.





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13 Nov 2016 11:00 PM by tteedd Star rating in Hertfordshire & Punt.... 990 posts Send private message

Brexit is the single most important political and economic dynamic

Hey, lets have a bit of proportion. Brexit is just an adjustment in our political arrangements. To put it as the No 1 issue is a little parochial. As a democrat I feel it is a very important issue but it certainly comes second after religeous fundamentalism, the behavour of Putin's Russia and global warming.

Further down the list there is N korea and chinese expansionism to consider. Many would consider these also to be more important than Brexit.





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13 Nov 2016 11:15 PM by hugh_man Star rating in Kent/Roda . 1593 posts Send private message

hugh_man´s avatar

Totally agree Tteedd

Some very worrying global concerns.

Thanks Ads, your very factual postings are also appreciated.

Not sure we will ever see positive suggestions from our Remoaners friends until they can get it out if their heads that we are NOT all racists opposed to immigration.

The facts given so far are why leave a union that is working so well?

Working for who?

Nuff said.





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14 Nov 2016 7:39 AM by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message

You can only reform a club if you are a member of it.

'Bureaucrats' did not cause the economic recession. Bankers did. It was the recession that damaged the economies of southern Europes states.

Greece was bankrupt because they spent money they did not have. The EU bailed them out.

What EU politics causes rifts between states? Policies are agreed by qualified majority voting.

Single nations cannot solve the world’s problems. Their influence and authority is diminished.

I would like to see the EU reform itself into a European federal state. With elected heads of government, a central tax system a central bureaucracy and institutions, with a military structure as one entity inside NATO. It is the only way to keep the concept of political and social union alive.

There is a strange concept today that seems to believe that every organisation has to be just perfect and function flawlessly. The EU is not a perfect union, far from it but it's better than no union at all. With every separate state in Europe then becoming a potential rival and putting their own self interests first.

“There is a crack in everything, that’s how the light gets in” Leonard Cohen.

 


This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 14/11/2016.

_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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14 Nov 2016 9:47 AM by tteedd Star rating in Hertfordshire & Punt.... 990 posts Send private message

I would like to see the EU reform itself into a European federal state. With elected heads of government, a central tax system a central bureaucracy and institutions, with a military structure as one entity inside NATO.

Add to that the protection of our legal system and democratic heritage (two things that were promised when we joined the EEC) and I suspect many Brexiteers would be with you. It is certainly what I hoped for between 72 and 93. But it became increasing clear that it was never going to happen, Politicians and functionaries will not give up what they have and much of Europe has different ideas on corruption, democracy and the rule of law to ourselves. There comes a time when you have to make a decision and stop gettng deeper into the mire. A time when our proud heritage is getting erroded and the future we hoped for is shown to be a mirage. The 23 June 2016 was that time.





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14 Nov 2016 9:59 AM by Destry Star rating in MYOB . 289 posts Send private message

Micky,

To quote Voltaire 'I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it'. I'm not so sure about the 'death' bit am sure that you believe what you post. However some are here just to hurl the insults and abuse, because they can't get physically hurt on line, and when they are challenged their toys fly out of their respective prams.

Brexit is the most important thing to happen to Europe since WW11, even Churchil was a believer in an EU state, albeit I reckoned that he thought it would be run in a sense of service and not as a gravy train. I look forward to reading posts of both in and out flavours.  



_______________________
IF YOU WISH TO QUOTE ANY OF MY POSTS PLEASE DO SO IN THEIR ENTIRETY AND NOT JUST A FEW SELECTED WORDS TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT. THANK YOU.



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14 Nov 2016 10:32 AM by perrypower1 Star rating in Derbyshire/Fuerteven.... 647 posts Send private message

perrypower1´s avatar

Once again we see the leavers asking the remainers how to fix the EU.  The answer is simple remain in it.

it is up to the leavers to propose how leaving should be structured and what we should put in its place.   Then it is up to Parliament to accept or send it back by voting on it.  

It is so very clear that the leavers do not know what to do.  That they have no idea and hence no plan.  And quoting Mao, Voltaire and Twain is not going to change that. So come on leavers.  Tell us what you plan or dream of doing.





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14 Nov 2016 10:46 AM by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message

Actually one of the major obstacles to a federal Europe was Britain itself. With Brexit everything may now change. At the heart of the British attitude to Europe is a misconception. The British know that their own political system is highly centralised, and they often assume that any European system must inevitably go the same way.

This is not likely to be the case. If the European Union continues to develop in a federalist direction, democracy will be strengthened and over-centralisation prevented, not the reverse. I have always believed true integration of European states could never happen without equal political accountability. By accountability I mean elected representatives and head of state to administer those factors granted to it in an agreed constitution. .

EU states would still remain sovereign with their own elected parliaments under a new EU constitution, along the lines of the USA. All US states retain sovereignty.

“The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.” The Constitution delegated few, enumerated powers to the Federal Government, reserving all remaining powers to the States and the people. (The Constitution Party).

The existing Lisbon Treaty is in effect the EU constitution under another name and could be easily upgraded to fit a federalist agenda. The actual constitution ratification process was rejected by French and Dutch voters in a referendum 2005 mainly on the principle that you cannot have a constitution without elected representation. It is in practice putting the cart before the horse. What we actually have currently in the EU is a deeply flawed half way house.

The European Union does have to reform to deal with the challenges Europe and the world faces. Federalism it seems to me and many others is the only possible future direction. I am simply sad Britain will not be a part of it.

 



_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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14 Nov 2016 11:30 AM by tteedd Star rating in Hertfordshire & Punt.... 990 posts Send private message

All US states retain sovereignty.

Although I would certainly have favoured the North in the Civil War, had I been around, the war showed in fact that secession from the union would not be allowed.

Further the supreme court can and does over-rule state legislatures.

 





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14 Nov 2016 11:44 AM by ads Star rating. 4122 posts Send private message

Thanks Mickeyfinn.

I was asking for thoughts on reform of the EU for those remaining states post Brexit but  I understand your EU aspirations from the outset and your observations re the EU not being"perfect and flawless". I don't think anyone expects that to be honest. But that is quite different to being intransigent to reform,  being blind to uncomfortable realities, to adequately forward plan.

Taking your point about Greece and the Banks and the impact from the recession, here's another perspective.

You are right of course the Banks had a major impact on the global economy re the recession, with their hidden complex products that were further manipulated by those who "bet" on the system to fail etc ( and still not one has been made truly accountable). Highly complex but built upon greed and lack of effective regulatory structures.

But where we disagree, ( born out by facts ) the situation for Greece became further exacerbated following recession, when they were incentivised to join the European Union, which correctly but ironically had checks and balances in place to rightly retain the stability of the EU.

But, these stability mechanisms, in particular accession criteria, was in effect ignored by the EU who turned a blind eye to the true financial realities with regard to Greece where financial  malpractices "fiddled the figures" to gain accession ( a repeat of malpractice which had also occurred in the case of Italy, but Greece was far worse).

But worse still was to come  by yet further financial manipulation which led to Greece's downfall.  The terms agreed with the IMF etc in effect placed Greece into a straight jacket, rightly many may say, to correct their imbalances re unrealistic spending and social structure. But where this went terribly wrong was in the equally unrealistic financial terms agreed by the " lenders" and speed at which they expected the Greek economy to reform and recover.

In effect and unforgiveably IMHO, this straight jacket and, I have to repeat SPEED at which this was done, was completely mismanaged by the financiers and bureaucrats alike, with yet a repeat of turning blind eyes to the crippling effects upon a nation of people, and placed them so inextricably dependent on their "lenders" as to lose any control of their fate in that unrealistic and mismanaged process.

What was intended as a exercise to control unrealistic spending patterns and unrealistic social patterns and bring them into line ( early retirement, lack of financial management etc) turned out to be far worse, and in that far too hasty a timetable with ridiculously unrealistic financial terms placed upon them, which inhibited any possibility of growth, left citizens having to beg on the streets, with little hope for their futures. Without any possibility to grow themselves out of the mire. And all at the hands of financiers and intransigent bureaucrats who refused to accept any responsibility for their failings. 

An ideological experiment gone wrong but at the total expense of a generation ( or maybe two generations) of citizens who deserved far better from those controlling their fate.

Speed and intransigence being the operative words here.

So moving on to Brexit. The EU, IMHO, once again through their ideological aspirations allowed a similar pattern of events to occur ( albeit on a completely different scale), in so much as their mismanagement of unemployment across member states and speed of accession by Eastern European states, where they appeared content to far too SPEEDILY allow economic migrants to move across member states without any forethought or flexibility to forward plan and rationally comprehend the impact on those recipient member states. To give them opportunity to adequately prepare. Or without any realistic plan to incentivise growth in those member states stripped of their labour. ( Recognise a pattern of events occurring here?)

The difference of course in this instance as opposed to Greece, was the scale and it could be argued better ability to "cope". But sadly in this process this has only reaffirmed the concerns and doubts in citizen's minds as to the failings and intransigence of the EU bureaucrats, who seemed again content to turn a blind eye to uncomfortable realities that were worryingly starting to impact upon the cohesive nature of British citizens, leading some to wrongly conclude and generalise that the British who voted to leave were in effect becoming anti - immigrant.

In reality in the main they were just the opposite.... screaming out to regain control, to stop the downward spiral, to demand better management, to listen to their cries for greater flexibility and forward planning both by their own Govt but also the EU bureaucrats. 

Stability mechanisms were also ignored by Germany conversely allowing them to grow beyond what was originally considered " balanced",  but that is another debate entirely. 

IMHO your observation Mickeyfinn  re member states rivalry, has in effect been exacerbated by EU policies and their bureaucratic mismanagement and lack of forward planning to effect growth, by their inability to reform and respond to genuine citizen concerns, by the failure to adhere to stability mechanisms in place to protect. And that is without examining the failures re the eurozone as highlighted in a previous article.

It's a sad but highly concerning sequence of events that we all should learn from as we move forward to find solutions where we can live and trade in relative stability and harmony across Europe.

 


This message was last edited by ads on 14/11/2016.


This message was last edited by ads on 14/11/2016.



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14 Nov 2016 1:04 PM by Destry Star rating in MYOB . 289 posts Send private message

tteedd,

          You will find that Texas is the only state that had it's right to secede from the Union written into it's membership when it gained indepencence from Mexico in 1836, so could not be classed as a rebel state when it joined the Confederacy. However when it was readmitted to the Union post Civil War in 1870, it was on the basis that it could not secede from the Union.    



_______________________
IF YOU WISH TO QUOTE ANY OF MY POSTS PLEASE DO SO IN THEIR ENTIRETY AND NOT JUST A FEW SELECTED WORDS TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT. THANK YOU.



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14 Nov 2016 4:27 PM by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message

ads wrote.

An ideological experiment gone wrong but at the total expense of a generation ( or maybe two generations) of citizens who deserved far better from those controlling their fate.

I disagree entirely. Although the EU has many problems and has needs for reform it has not failed generations. Quite the au-contraire in fact. Look at the benefits Spain has derived from its membership. Prosperity and progress in Germany, Holland and France post war has been considerable. Many other states have enjoyed improvement in agriculture, education, infrastructure and industrial production. Improvement that would not have taken place outside the community. Which is why despite its difficulties so many nations still want to be members.

The EU has kept the peace in Europe for over seventy years and developed social cohesion between peoples of member states. A lasting peace unthinkable in the last century when rampant nationalism created so much death and destruction.

Britain has benefited hugely from its membership. The single market has increased prosperity undreamed of in the sixties and seventies when the nation was all but bankrupt. The problem is half of the electorate has forgotten it or never experienced it.

The current UK government believes in free trade but is leaving the very source of that trade which seems bizarre to me.

I believe all that we are witnessing today in the western developed world is discontent with politics because ordinary people’s expectations are out of sync with what is actually possible.

The bombardment of social media, consumer advertising, life style examples and yes politicians themselves who make promises they know they cannot keep. It all adds up to a form of mass hysteria of expectation. When those expectations prove not to have been delivered the voters then look for something new that they believe will.

Any economy cannot deliver the life styles everyone wants. Trump and Brexit will not make any difference except perhaps the latter which will cause hardship in Britain eventually. The EU will grow and recover from its difficulties, especially if embraces reforms. The British will learn that they actually need immigration of labour, free movement and the single market and the country will struggle without it.

Britain needs Europe but Europe can find new markets more easily and can ignore the UK without the same consequence.



_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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14 Nov 2016 4:58 PM by tteedd Star rating in Hertfordshire & Punt.... 990 posts Send private message

Same old canards.

 

Peace - Has been kept through fear of Russia and the counterballance of NATO.

Single market/EU - has nothing to do with our prosperity. The first years of membership were dismal. Our prosperity stems from the restructuring of the Thatcher era.

Free trade - EU external tarriffs are a severe block on Free trade.

 


This message was last edited by tteedd on 14/11/2016.



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14 Nov 2016 5:30 PM by ads Star rating. 4122 posts Send private message

Mickeyfinn 

You took that comment out of context, as that reference, as you know, was in relation to the way the EU and the financial institutions handled the Greek crisis. Despicably I might add and IMHO too little attention is given to the plight of the Greek citizens at the hands of those who have significantly compromised their futures. So much for caring for citizens future  wellbeing which in reality sadly appears as hypocrisy.

But now similar patterns are developing re lack of forward planning and unrealistic haste with regard to expansion of the EU, which is compromising other EU nations NOT  just the UK.

You appear to imply that this is solely a UK problem with regard to citizen's disaffection with the EU. This is not the case, hence the concerns re other states following the UK leaving the EU....not Europe but the EU. How many other EU citizens have stated they were pleased that the UK were bringing these failures to listen to citizen concerns to the attention of the bureaucrats.....many that you make little reference to.

Mass hysteria of expectation? Interesting observation as those who have the current expectations are those from Eastern European States, given they haven't experienced the same levels of unemployment as the southern states, but are seeking a different standard of living , ( wage differentials) so are you suggesting they need to temper their aspirations and  re-evaluate how quickly this can be achieved and how this impacts their own member states in the interim without forward planning to encourage strategies to gain growth from within?

As for Spain....agreed they have benefited from funding infrastructure and migration that has improved their economy through the migrants spending power and settlements, but this cannot be compared to the UKs position which is a completely different set of circumstances already debated to date, hence their dissatisfaction leading to Brexit. 

The social cohesion you refer to is being sadly undermined by intransigence and unwillingness to reform and  the flexibility required to address very real issues.

Re your observation about finding other markets, isn't this exactly the same as the UK seeking a more global approach to trade?

We have very different perspectives Mickeyfinn.

 





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14 Nov 2016 5:35 PM by Jarvi Star rating in Halifax UK and Sucin.... 757 posts Send private message

Hasn't anyone got anything new to contribute to this? Some people have been repeating the same thing over and over again since February of this year, trying to convince the rest of us how great the EUSSR is when in reality as everyone knows it is a great bloated dictactorship. It will never change whether a country is a part of it or not, and that is why it is doomed. The sooner the better I say so that the ordinary citizens who have been shafted can claim back their freedom and their countries of birth. Some people seem to be hoping and praying that Brexit will fail, well I for one cannot wait for the EU to fail, maybe then the bureaucrats and liberals will stop thinking that they are better than the rest of us and stop telling us what's in our best interests, when clearly we know they are feathering their own nests in their pursuit for more and more power. The only chance of survival for the EUSSR is if they start listening, but no chance of that.

 





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14 Nov 2016 6:23 PM by Destry Star rating in MYOB . 289 posts Send private message

Marine Le Pen as leader of France and Frauke Petry her opposite in Germany is a very realistic possibility, what would the chances of the EU surviving be if this happened, based on the UK having triggered Article 50?  



_______________________
IF YOU WISH TO QUOTE ANY OF MY POSTS PLEASE DO SO IN THEIR ENTIRETY AND NOT JUST A FEW SELECTED WORDS TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT. THANK YOU.



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14 Nov 2016 6:39 PM by ads Star rating. 4122 posts Send private message

How do you perceive the underlying cause and effect with regard to contagion Destry?





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