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30 Nov 2016 8:54 AM by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message

Bigal

If there is a job to be done that can be done by the present UK population, then that job should be offered to the present UK population first.

Sorry but what nonsense – where do you stop. What about jobs for Londoners before northerner, what about jobs for Scottish before English etc etc This is pure discrimination and heading down the road of elitism, preferential treatment call it what you want but it is simply wrong on every count

Then you get the UK citizens who prefer to stay on benefits and won’t take any job or are you saying we should go back the old labour exchange and force people into work (not a bad thought though)

** EDITED - Against forum rules **

The UK 'standard of living' was built up by generations of hard working UK residents for the benefit of UK residents'

Yes by many residents and not 100% citizens you need to look back in history again. I am sure my ancestors did not work hard just to have a "fund" to support lazy benefit scroungers - many will be turning in their graves  

 

Hugh_man

So you agree with moving parliament from Brussels to Strasbourg every month at a cost of 150mill euros a time because they say so.

Not really - it is being changed and questioned in a democratic way you are clutching at straws and blaming the EU for everything is not the best way forward

This was done democratically although in favour of the French who have a veto (same as UK but the UK will lose it soon). What about the cost of teh wlesh assembly, the scottish assembly and NI assemblies etc to the UK tax payer (how many scottish / Wlesh & NI MP's get to vote and work  in both parlaiments and have to pay to have accomodation offices transfers etc in all funded by the UK tax payer) - why does the UK need 4 what next Cornwall, Durham, Norfolk etc

There is also a history why see link

https://www.quora.com/Why-does-the-European-parliament-move-from-Brussels-to-Strasbourg-once-a-month

Nobody is denying or stopping skills coming to the UK IF required but exactly how many skilled EU citizens do we need driving for DHL, Yodel or Uber?

So who will actually do these jobs the dole scroungers – you really are having a laugh now

 


This message was last edited by eos_moderators on 12/1/2016 11:04:00 AM.

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30 Nov 2016 10:03 AM by bobaol Star rating. 2253 posts Send private message

bobaol´s avatar

You no doubt took the figures for the whole of the UK which include the unpopulated parts of the Scottish highlands. To make any sort of comparison you have to compare the populated areas

Ha, ha! Nothing like giving me a laugh first thing in the morning by spouting things that probably made sense in your head when you typed them. OK, to fit in with your warped version, Torrevieja beach is one of the most densely populated areas in Europe during August? Happy now? 

So you can't build on top of Ben Nevis. Neither can you build on the Jungfrau, the Matterhorn or even in many parts of the mountainous regions of Spain. You made it up but, like the whole of this campaign, you have either repeated as true the lies the leave campaign have come out with or made up your own. I probably should feel sorry for you as you believe them (like the density of the Dutch population overtaking UK in 2008 when the figures I looked as were from 2014 and looked further into 2016. Nope, The Netherlands still more densely populated). Or are you saying we should only include cities in population density? Like London doesn't even make the top 10 of densely populated cities in Europe. 

Just stop making things up or repeating half truths, downright lies and things that only fit your agenda. This thread has become a joke and it's why I haven't even bothered to look in for a long time. But when I do, the same-o same-o usual suspects are still spouting any kind of rubbish they can to try and prove their point. Just take a break for a while, please.

 

 


This message was last edited by bobaol on 30/11/2016.



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30 Nov 2016 11:21 AM by BigAl2015 Star rating. 194 posts Send private message

Tadd

You said Bigal

If there is a job to be done that can be done by the present UK population, then that job should be offered to the present UK population first.

Sorry but what nonsense – where do you stop. What about jobs for Londoners before northerner, what about jobs for Scottish before English etc etc This is pure discrimination and heading down the road of elitism, preferential treatment call it what you want but it is simply wrong on every count.

What part of my statement is nonsense?

If you give the job to a EU immigrant, who pays for the UK person who did not get that job?

There are also other associated costs with your method: The EU immigrant:

a) Will need housing

b) Will need to be added to a doctor's list.

c) May need to put his / her child / children in an already overcrowded school.

d) When using the NHS may need to have an interpreter provided at the expense of the NHS.

e) May need to drive to work and therefore add another car to our already overcrowded motorways.

All these associated costs are not needed if the job goes to a UK citizen.

Then you get the UK citizens who prefer to stay on benefits and won’t take any job or are you saying we should go back the old labour exchange and force people into work (not a bad thought though).

You may be correct that SOME UK citizens prefer to stay on benefits, but I can assure this is not the majority and so you should not 'tar all with the same brush'.

** EDITED - Against forum rules **

The UK 'standard of living' was built up by generations of hard working UK residents for the benefit of UK residents'

Yes by many residents and not 100% citizens you need to look back in history again. I am sure my ancestors did not work hard just to have a "fund" to support lazy benefit scroungers - many will be turning in their graves  

Again you are 'tarring all with the same brush', I am happy to have discussions with people who have a fair point of view and don't resort to putting the citizens of the UK down to further their cause.

Why should preference be given to EU migrants over UK citizens? ** EDITED - Against forum rules **

 

 


This message was last edited by eos_moderators on 12/1/2016 10:59:00 AM.



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30 Nov 2016 11:50 AM by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message

** EDITED - Against forum rules **

 


This message was last edited by eos_moderators on 12/1/2016 10:54:00 AM.

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30 Nov 2016 11:59 AM by bobaol Star rating. 2253 posts Send private message

bobaol´s avatar

Deutschland uber alice 

Germany over Alice? Is that even legal? 





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30 Nov 2016 12:04 PM by tteedd Star rating in Hertfordshire & Punt.... 990 posts Send private message

First resource googled:

The figures were obtained in a parliamentary answer from the Office of National Statistics.

In 2008 the average number of people per square kilometre in Britain was 253, rising to 395 in England.

Latest figures from Holland show that its population density was 395 a square kilometre in 2002 and 393 in 2005. It is estimated that English population density will rise to 464 people for every square kilometre by 2031.

The population density in England is already almost double the level in Germany and quadruple that in France.

 


This message was last edited by tteedd on 30/11/2016.



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30 Nov 2016 12:21 PM by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message

Deutschland uber alice 

Germany over Alice? Is that even legal? smiley

Woops senior moment.

"Über Alles" is a German phrase meaning "above all else." It was part of the German national anthem until the end of World War II, and is closely associated with the Nazis.

 



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30 Nov 2016 12:21 PM by tteedd Star rating in Hertfordshire & Punt.... 990 posts Send private message

Take care you cannot just call someone ' .......ist' because you do not like them or their views.

I have no time for UKIP but there is nothing in their programme that says they are anything other than democrats.

Likewise Farron called Farrage '......ist' on question time last Sunday. It is disgraceful to hand out these insults rather than indulge in debating the issues. It just raises the temperature of the debate and causes intemperance on all sides.

 

 





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30 Nov 2016 12:28 PM by tenerife Star rating. 130 posts Send private message

A few on here see themselves as very much 'European'.  I can't see what's wrong with advertising a job vacancy in the UK first: if not filled, open it to the world.





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30 Nov 2016 1:37 PM by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message

Ukip is part of the group Europe of Freedom and Democracy (EFD). The group includes representatives of the Danish People’s Party, the True Finns Party, the Dutch SGP and the infamous Italian Lega Nord – all of them far-right. Nigel Farage is co-President of the group along with Lega Nord’s Francesco Speroni, who described multiple murderer Anders Breivik as someone whose “ideas are in defence of western civilisation."

New Statesman November 2016

 



_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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30 Nov 2016 1:57 PM by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message

Bigal

Where do I start??

What part of my statement is nonsense?

If you give the job to a EU immigrant, who pays for the UK person who did not get that job?

Why should anyone get any preferential treatment based on their nationality?  Jobs are given based on many things such as capability, experience, price, attitude, personality, presentation etc etc and decision on giving a job to anyone should NEVER be based on nationality that is discrimination and illegal

There are also other associated costs with your method: The EU immigrant:

a) Will need housing

So UK citizens don’t need housing everyone does so whjat we ne dto build mor which wil create more jobs

b) Will need to be added to a doctor's list.

So do UK citizens especially if they move for work (which many won’t!) as do anyone who comes to reside in UK EU or non EU. Again a govt issue to plan for growth

c) May need to put his / her child / children in an already overcrowded school.

Again a govt issue to plan for growth and bad planning

d) When using the NHS may need to have an interpreter provided at the expense of the NHS.

Again a govt issue – don’t see many other EU countries doing this. Remeberthey do contribute to teh system when working

e) May need to drive to work and therefore add another car to our already overcrowded motorways.

Again a govt issue to plan for growth – new cars economic growth or maybe the Brit who did not get the job a can sell then his car!!!

All these associated costs are not needed if the job goes to a UK citizen.

SO a UK citizen will not move house, buy a new car, change doctors etc etc

Then you get the UK citizens who prefer to stay on benefits and won’t take any job or are you saying we should go back the old labour exchange and force people into work (not a bad thought though).

You may be correct that SOME UK citizens prefer to stay on benefits, but I can assure this is not the majority and so you should not 'tar all with the same brush'.

The numbers far outweigh the numbers coming into the UK just take a walk round some estates in the UK and it is very clear or look at how much benefits are being paid especially to long termers  and multi generation scroungers. There are also far more “locals” getting health care who have never contributed

** EDITED - Against forum rules **

The UK 'standard of living' was built up by generations of hard working UK residents for the benefit of UK residents'

Yes by many residents and not 100% citizens you need to look back in history again. I am sure my ancestors did not work hard just to have a "fund" to support lazy benefit scroungers - many will be turning in their graves  

Again you are 'tarring all with the same brush', I am happy to have discussions with people who have a fair point of view and don't resort to putting the citizens of the UK down to further their cause.

Not all but a lot

the UK has welcomed people from outside he UK for decades if not centuries who have added to the quality of life, economy and way of life that the UK has now and as a result in the main a huge respect and regard for people of difrnent nationalites, religions and culutres then you get the minroity who want to discriminate in favour of UK citiznes - THAT STINKS

** EDITED - Against forum rules **

I am not suggesting people coming to the UK get preferential treatment just to be treat with equality as per the laws of the UK and the morality of decent human beings not like you who think UK citizens should get preferential treatment and as I said that attitude is discrimination and STINKS

 


This message was last edited by eos_moderators on 12/1/2016 11:01:00 AM.

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30 Nov 2016 2:18 PM by tenerife Star rating. 130 posts Send private message

Why shouldn't things be biased towards UK citizens? I would expect the Germans and the French etc. to do the same for their people. I'd hardly call it racist!





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30 Nov 2016 2:22 PM by BigAl2015 Star rating. 194 posts Send private message

** EDITED - Against forum rules **

 


This message was last edited by eos_moderators on 11/30/2016 3:24:00 PM.



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30 Nov 2016 2:40 PM by bobaol Star rating. 2253 posts Send private message

bobaol´s avatar

tenerife

Why shouldn't things be biased towards UK citizens? I would expect the Germans and the French etc. to do the same for their people. I'd hardly call it racist!

But they don't. They can discriminate against EU and non-EU citizens but, under EU rules, they cannot discriminate against someone from another EU country. That's what freedom of movement and work is all about. If they employ someone from outside the EU they have to show that the job could not be done by another EU citizen, not another French or German citizen. That's why you don't need to have a work permit, for example, to work in Spain but you would have to if you came from, say, the USA. 

Over 100,000 British people live in Germany and it's been estimated some 70,000 are working there, my nephew amongst them. He takes on IT contracts for banks and regularly works in Germany for up to a years contract. No problems, off he goes and doesn't need a work permit and the bank hasn't got to prove it's a job that can't be done by a German. On the other hand, he sometimes does the same thing in the USA and the bank has to go through considerable hoops to get him there including limiting the amount of time he can stay. The same when the bank in Germany employs people from the USA on short contracts and have to prove no other EU citizen (not German) has the knowledge to carry out the same work.

However, if the job entailed meeting and speaking to the public, he would have to prove he could speak German to carry out the job. Same in Spain where many Brits apply for jobs like dental receptionists and can't speak Spanish (for example). Imagine phoning your dentist in UK and finding the lady answering the phone can't speak English.

 

 

 





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30 Nov 2016 2:41 PM by ads Star rating. 4122 posts Send private message

We all have to recognise many uncomfortable realities from both sides of the debate, don't we, and there is obviously a lack of trust building up here whenever evidence is provided? But surely  it does neither side any good to be unwilling to address uncomfortable realities and defend, without retaining an open mind and accept  and try to address failures from wherever they arise?


This is exactly what happened from both leave and remain camps during the referendum, which is why many did their own research from as wide a perspective as possible. Many that I know didn't just rely on a right or left wing agenda, but the majority listened to live debates in a desperate attempt to gain information, where many opinions and concerns were voiced and independently chaired by those who were tasked with gaining a balance of views and "evidence".


Where these TV debates took place in differing regions of the UK ( such as "Question Time" just as one example) it proved quite an education, as many citizens in the audience ( from a wide and diverse mix that changed each week) were making their observations from their own first hand experiences, and there were patterns of concerns occurring depending on the region, the nature of local work and study, the social mix, the prevalence of migrants in their region, and those who were once migrants but had settled and successfully integrated into their communities having become residents after many years....

 

It proved quite an eye opener to be honest, but appeared to reinforce the need not to generalise and try to retain an open mind wherever possible, as each region had its own impact ( whether positive or negative). But these live debates proved to be a means of gaining a far better appreciation at both regional and national level, since they provided a valid picture of first hand  observations and where applicable, concerns, under open debate.


One of the aspects that hasn't been discussed here is that many people who have permanently settled in the UK appear to have been equally concerned by the impacts and strain put upon their local  communities by the free movement policy,  and how " generalisations" by those unwilling to look to the wider perspective and impacts from EU policy were affecting their lives.

 

The same applies with those who for whatever reason were out of work, who were seeking work in their neighbourhoods, where the thought of moving away from family and friends was proving of grave concern to them. Family and friends proving of high priority to their everyday lives. ( We are all different in this regard but many who have lived and worked in close knit communities all their working lives have felt threatened by this policy re freedom of movement….where work and social structure are interlinked, I.e.  close knit communities tend to place great emphasis on retaining close links with their family and friends and appear keen to retain a tolerance and cohesion to ALL within their communities).

 

Many seasonal unskilled resident workers have previously been able to move from one area of work to another within nearby commutable regions, depending on the season, and whereas this was possible in the past, they were finding that not only were there diminishing opportunities but also diminishing rates of pay, proliferation of zero hours contracts etc... Those residents seeking work are not “ scroungers “ but ordinary citizens that were witnessing growing insecurities to their everyday lives, and strains within their regions that did not exist to the same degree prior to this free movement policy.


Over the last 40 years and beyond ( post war) the UK has changed significantly, but in the main it has become well integrated, more compassionate to those who for whatever reason are disadvantaged, out of work. etc, and yes there will always be some who abuse the system.  But in the main it has proved a far more civilised system with focus on a caring but fair approach. The Govt are currently reviewing the welfare state but given the British psyche and caring many want this to be achieved in a timely manner but also in a manner that does not lose sight of those most vulnerable within our society, or create greater poverty in that process. It's a complex and sensitive area….. Maybe this is also why, where required, much greater emphasis is placed on regulatory structures in the UK... So as to counter abuse of a fair system that has taken years to develop.  


So to many, to suggest that we have to swiftly abandon such progressive structures to accommodate an uncontrolled EU policy appears one step too far to many in the UK.


UK citizens want to democratically address the problems that have arisen from Govt, which have been highlighted within this thread, but many have found it frustratingly nigh on impossible over this last decade and beyond to address the problems that have arisen as a consequence of EU policy, Therein lies the problem.


Anyway, just as another option to consider, here's a youtube video from a Select Committee that were cross questioning  the economist Patrick Minford back in May, where he explained his rationale re tariffs and free trade etc.

https://youtu.be/5IHMdbG9GuM


 

Also another YouTube footage from a conference held earlier this month (November) that he was asked to attend

https://youtu.be/T_IcL5bsAOY



Just some thoughts and different perspectives to consider ( and don't shoot the messenger please ;) ! 





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30 Nov 2016 3:23 PM by tenerife Star rating. 130 posts Send private message

Bob,

        Thanks for the long winded reply (not). I still hold by what i said, despite the EU rules that you and some other 'Europeans' hold so dear. By the way, i'm not anti  Europe.

 


This message was last edited by tenerife on 30/11/2016.



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30 Nov 2016 3:40 PM by hughjardon Star rating in Jaywick Sands. 418 posts Send private message

hughjardon´s avatar

** EDITED - Against forum rules - Inciting **

 


This message was last edited by eos_moderators on 12/1/2016 11:03:00 AM.

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30 Nov 2016 5:03 PM by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message

Ads. You churn out links to Minford and Migration Watch as if they hold balanced and reasonable independent views and ideas. What in fact both are are just vessels of the political right. 

Anyway, just as another option to consider, here's a youtube video from a Select Committee that were cross questioning  the economist Patrick Minford back in May, where he explained his rationale re tariffs and free trade etc.

A few facts about Patrick Minford the Brexiteers favorite economist.

He is a follower of Milton Friedman the monetarist and Margaret Thatcher’s favorite economist. 

He is on the political right.

He advised Thatcher and is thought to have invented the idea of the poll tax.

He is a lifelong opponent of the European Union and monetary union.

He opposed Nigel Lawson’s decision for Britain’s entry into the exchange rate mechanism.

He designed the Liverpool Economic Model which was the first model to develop a ‘supply side’ designed to explain the underlying trend or ‘natural’ unemployment rate.

Academics to retain their credibility should have the ability to balance both arguments with a rational. Minford sees only his own views entirely, was used for political ends in the referendum campaign and in doing so lost any academic standing he may have had as an independent thinker.



_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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01 Dec 2016 11:14 AM by eos_moderators Star rating in España. 173 posts Send private message

eos_moderators´s avatar

I think we have been down this road before. Please refrain from making references to WW2 politics, that will not be tolerated. Immigration as mentioned before can be discussed without racial descrimination. If someone is against immigration please don't turn them into racists either. There are many arguments in favour and against and here we do support free speech.... to an extent!  Please be civil and if you have nothing to contirbute, once again, don't post for the sake of it.  We understand that this is a delicate subject but please think about what you post before posting it.



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01 Dec 2016 12:33 PM by ads Star rating. 4122 posts Send private message

Mickeyfinn 

You are obviously supporting a political agenda which of course is anyone's right, but where we differ significantly is the refusal to remove the " political hat" and look to a greater balance. To reflect upon the real practicalities and best interests of citizens and business, rather than follow political agendas , and remain willing to review all transient options to obtain a mutual successful outcome. 

In terms of credibility, most economic observers now acknowledge that the economic model followed by the remain camp was flawed in so much as it was far too pessimistic, a pattern that appears to be repeating once again. Likewise the IMF and financial institutions also have lost credibility in terms of their forecasting models.

What is worrying in this intransigent political stance with regard to the EU, is the failure to consider a mix of policy where required, and retain flexibility to  better respond to significant swift negative impacts on citizens that has the potential to disrupt cohesion and in that process create a downward spiral of economic turmoil.

Many citizens appear to want politicians to move more towards practical solutions rather than follow party lines or political dogma for the sake of it, dogma that fails to recognise all too many uncomfortable realities. 

IMHO generalisations  that  constantly make reference to " the right" or " the left" appear to limit the need for a more flexible approach  in order to attain good practical workable solutions. Decisions that where required remove the political hat, retain a more open mind  and where required  cross political boundaries in order to gain realistic solutions.

 

 


This message was last edited by ads on 01/12/2016.


This message was last edited by ads on 01/12/2016.



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