| The Comments |
Mickyfinn well said - this shoudl be the target for all across teh world but leaders, religions and stupid brainwashed idiots who believe the politcians, media, religion nationlastic pride, arrogance, greed, selfishness etc. simply do not have the mental capacity to get it
In fact the world is really a global village. If you travel widely you realise people are the same everywhere. They have the same emotions and the same aspirations.
Windtalker added
the French don't like us the Spanish tolerate us and everywhere else in the EU Hate's.
If even half true I wonder why - maybe the arrogance of the Brits
But for me this type of statement is typical of the media, politicians and brainwashed Brits it is purely a figment fo many peoples imagination. Simple minded brainwhased brits making any excuse to inflate their ego, for their behaviours and selfish attitudes
Or even worse a stereotype image produced, promoted and advertised by a few
Having worked and lived across Europe I never experinced any negative towards me, my familr or colleagues but many questions regarding the attitudes of a few mad Brits abroad (eveything from language skills, arrogance, binge drinking etc) and the UK Govt.
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Mariedav if the pole is 51% in and 49% out if the (ins) win something will have to be put right with the current situation after all 49% are voting for (out) change if Cameron does not take this in and demand some changes the conservative party will loose the next general election.
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Why would tories lose when all other parties are fully 'In'. You really think that UKIP is going to soar to power if there is an 'in' vote?
Outs, you offer nothing.
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Yes I do think UKIP will get more votes .as I said if the vote is in by a 2% majority any party that holds the keys of number 10 has got a big problem to put right thay will to give the out voters that amount to half the population something to keep them quite the problem doesn't go away it will get worse.
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Let’s play devil’s advocate:
Consider for a moment the entire political establishment of the UK, minus about one third of the Conservative parliamentary party are 'IN''s. Then look closely at that one third remaining and imagine them governing a Britain out of the EU?
Boris as PM, IDS as Foreign Secretary, Gove as Chancellor. Nigel Farage as Home secretary. Then Nigel Lawson as Environment Secretary and Priti Patel at education.
What chance of that lot being elected against the remaining entire political class? If you think that unlikely why listen to them now over an issue far greater than a general election. That’s only five years or less. The EU referendum is for life.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Mickyfinn
It could be worse the cabinet could be made up of some on here
recommendations?
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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The turnout will probably be about 60%.
So 50/50 equates to 30 in and 30 out with 40% not voting.
I recon with 29% in 31% out and 40% not voting the establishment would say that there had not been an adequate vote to leave.
That would lead to trouble!
.............
I do not beleive that Boris will ever be leader of the Conservatives whatever the vote. Let alone PM. However I once thought that Blair was a shallow fantasist and could not possibly become PM!
I was wrong about the last part.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 13/03/2016.
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Why should a future independant government of the UK be composed of 'outers'?
I can quite easily envisage a situation where the UK is out of the EU but the Government is composed almost enirely of those who proposed we stayed in.
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You missed my purpose tteedd. I don't think for a moment my fantasy cabinet would come to pass. I was making the point that the 'out' group are to me a bunch of either failed or unconvincing politicians.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Then there is no point in your post!
However I think I agree on Boris.
IDS had no charisma for leader but was/is an adequate minister.
Gove was moved because Cameron lost his bottle.
Farage kept a good job down in the city but is unproven in government (but has much more experience than many that have been in government including Cameron and nearly all the opposition front bench).
Apart from the ERM debacle Lawson was a good chancelor.
And the jury is still out on Priti Patel
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My prediction. Based on statistical analysis.
Turnout 68.35%
Remain in reformed EU: 55.135% (of total eligble voters 37.69%)
Leave EU: 43.756% (of total eligble voters 29.91%)
Spoiled votes: 1.11%
Remember, you heard it here first!
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What reformed EU who is going to reform certainly not the (ins ). They will have to wait in line to bend down and pick the soap up in the EU comunity showers and they will still come home w.with nothing just like Cameron.
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If it's lashing it down with rain then the turnout will be lower than it would be on a fine day, however weather quality has never stood in the way of the totally commited. On the subject of commitment, the only people that I have spoken to on the subject in the UK who were definate voters were 'OUT's'. It's no good looking at what UK expats residing in Spain are likely to do, they will hardly make the swingometer (showing my age there) twitch, let alone move.
The sink council estate dwellers usually manage a circa 25% turn out for general elections, these are usually older residents who can remember what their estate was like prior to left wing councils housing druggies, dolers and immigrants on it, they are hardly likely to vote for more of the same. The rural vote is a strange one, there are a hell of a lot of folk employed on the land by virtue of EU grants, the public sector (whoops) will have received their thinking instructions, if they come out to vote en mass, along with the student population then the 'IN's' will have it, but there are a lot of if's between IN or OUT. 
This message was last edited by Hephaestus on 13/03/2016.
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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Wow WT, you really hate the EU don't you? I had no idea your distaste was so strong.
Oh well, you will get used to it. It is here to stay.
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Perrypower1 who is going to reform the EU and what is going to change and how will Reformation benefit the UK do you know something that Cameron has not told us yet if so let's have it.
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Windy, because you asked; The reforms we have been offered at this stage:
1. A seven-year freeze on in-work benefits for EU citizens working in the UK.
We wanted 13, they offered 5 we settled on seven. Not bad but I think we should have settled on nine or ten. I would say this was only a partial win. Better than a draw but short of a full win.
2. Child benefit payments will be indexed to the cost of living for children living outside the UK, under new EU legislation. This will apply to new arrivals to the UK, once legislation has been passed, and to all workers from 1 January 2020.
We started off saying we did not want to pay any child benefits where EU Parents' children lived abroad but changed our view to the indexation issue. This got down to what would you do about UK Parents' with children living abroad. The amount of money involved is teeny-tiny but it was one of the hardest items to get settlement on. Personally I am not sure I even would score a partial win on this one, but it also cannot be called a total loss. Better than a loss but not quite a draw.
3. A surprising win for Cameron, only one euro ‘out’ will be able to force a debate among EU leaders about ‘problem’ eurozone laws. Other EU leaders agreed to this because neither the UK, nor any other country, would have a veto.
Major win on this one.
4. UK is not on the road to deeper integration. “It is recognised that the United Kingdom ... is not committed to further political integration in the EU. References to ever-closer union do not apply to the United Kingdom.”
Another major win as the language accepted was much stronger than we originally proposed.
If I had to score it, I would give three points out of four maybe as high as 3.5 out of four.
I've heard the reforms the 'outs' are seeking but they are not realistic. They just want out. Ain't gonna happen, so get used to being in the EU becasue the 'out' campaign offers the people in the UK nothing. That is why they cannot articulate it.
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Well, Cameron did get a pledge on UK not being involved in ever closer federation, a pledge on not joining the single currency and for the EU to recognise there are other currencies, a pledge on not joining Schengen and retaining border controls.
Also a limiting of benefits to EU citizens. Now, as all those points are directly against the ethos of the EU then I'd hardly say he got nothing.
And the referendum is just like the Scottish one, just half a percent either side will sway. The government cannot say it was not conclusive either way. 49.5% in and 50.5% out means it's out. Don't let that stop the conspiracy theorists, though.
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Can anyone identify how, given the current structure of the MEP political camps, we can effect reform of the EU from within please, without being overridden by those with completely different agendas (since there is constant reference to reform of the EU from those strongly advocating to remain)?
What further reform are they seeking and which other political "camps" within the EU are seeking the same form of reform as the UK?
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The European Conservatives and Reform (ECR) party are an anti-federalist party consisting of the UK Conservative MEPs, the Law and Justice Party of Poland, the Ulster Unionist Party, the New Majority and Freedom and Solidarity parties of Slovakia, the National Alliance of Lithuania, the Conservative and Reformists of Italy, the Finns Party of Finland, the Civic Democratic Party of the Czech Republic and the Croation Conservative Party.
It is, therefore, not the UK only who is asking for these reforms.
They have, as a manifesto, what is known as the Prague Declaration which has as its aims (excuse the cut and paste)
- Free enterprise, free and fair trade and competition, minimal regulation, lower taxation, and small government as the ultimate catalysts for individual freedom and personal and national prosperity.
- Freedom of the individual, more personal responsibility and greater democratic accountability.
- Sustainable, clean energy supply with an emphasis on energy security.
- The importance of the family as the bedrock of society.
- The sovereign integrity of the nation state, opposition to EU federalism and a renewed respect for true subsidiarity.
- The overriding value of the transatlantic security relationship in a revitalised NATO, and support for young democracies across Europe.
- Effectively controlled immigration and an end to abuse of asylum procedures
- Efficient and modern public services and sensitivity to the needs of both rural and urban communities.
- An end to waste and excessive bureaucracy and a commitment to greater transparency and probity in the EU institutions and use of EU funds.
- Respect and equitable treatment for all EU countries, new and old, large and small.
Prior to this, up until 2009, the Conservatives were in the Movement for European Reform which included others from, for example, Bulgaria as well as Poland.
Other parties, like the European People's Party which includes the Spanish People's Party (PP) and there manifesto is for closer European integration.
The Party of European Socialists (PES) includes members from every EU country including the British Labour Party and the Spanish PSOE. Their aim is not anti-federalist and are not pushing for reforms.
Podemos, the left wing anti-austerity party in Spain and joined the Euro United Left/Nordic Green Left Party which is left wing/communist group with, among others, Sinn Fein. This group is committed to integration but wants a reform of the political structure and to withdraw from NATO.
All that is to show it is pointless asking about the UK in the EU parliament because it just doesn't exist. It is not UK pushing or asking for certain reforms, just the Conservative MEPs along with other nations.
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Thank you mariedav that is well layed out and presented. It also highlights the difficulties we will face in trying to obtain agreements with other countries. As a nation we are divided on political views. Nothing surprising there but it makes it hard to determine what people feel is best for the Kingdom.
Comments have suggested that if there was a close finish for the "in" campaign the government would have to give concessions to the "out" voters or face revolt. Of course that is an impossible ask. Just as a close finish for the out campaign means we are out not just part way out.
It strikes me that a lot of "outers" don't actually want to be out they just want to threaten the rest of the EU with the idea that if the UK can't have our own way (albeit the outers don't know what that is yet) then we are going to take our ball home.
there is no plausible alternative to the EU. They have offered reforms that we asked for. They have made it clear that we are a valued part of the EU. The best thing that could happen is for the referendum to be scrapped. It is a waste of time and money and will result in a 55% in vote anyway. Undecided voters are not going to go with anything other than the status quo. They never have. That is why the vote is taking place so soon.
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