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06 Feb 2016 20:05 by Hephaestus Star rating in The Peak District Na.... 1260 posts Send private message

Mickyfinn,

Cameron could not possibly give his fellow MP's permission to vote as they wish, what he did do is to give them his blessing to campaign openly for 'IN' or 'Out', according to their beliefs.

 


 


This message was last edited by Hephaestus on 06/02/2016.

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I'm Spartacus, well why not?




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07 Feb 2016 10:28 by GB45 Star rating in Wiltshire and holida.... 131 posts Send private message

Tadd, calling people "thickos" for contemplating voting out in the referendem doesn't help. Also saying the UK will cause more misery and poverty than even the EU by leaving is a ridiculous statement. Do you really think that all the members of the EU work together for the common good? Most joined for what they could get out of it not for humanitarian reasons.Most people will vote for what they think will be best for themselves and then the UK. Is that any different from what you are contemplating? You live in Spain and think that it would be best for YOU if the UK votes to stay.





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07 Feb 2016 10:56 by Mickyfinn Star rating. 1336 posts Send private message

Hephaestus wote:

Cameron could not possibly give his fellow MP's permission to vote as they wish, what he did do is to give them his blessing to campaign openly for 'IN' or 'Out', according to their beliefs.

I have read that more than twice and I'm still struggling to understand it.smiley Presumably if the Tory MP's campaign for IN or OUT they will also vote the same way in the referendum.

What I actually meant was that the referendum policy was a concession given  to Tory backbenchers to appease their opposition to his government and to try and get UKIP voters and his own side to vote conservative. There is an estimate of 90 Tories on the back benches who will support the OUT campaign. If you consider these MP's vote out of self-interest  (ie: Keeping their seats) then that's a large section of the conservative voting public in Britain who are against the EU.

If you drill deep into those views you will find immigration is at the heart of the matter. Little else. I know the politicos dress it up a little to make their campaign more politically acceptable but be in no doubt it's immigration, immigration and immigration that's their motor to exit the EU.

Since we living in Europe are immigrants ourselves we have a different perspective on that subject. Also dare I say it, er… a more rounded and wider view of the world than they who have never strayed outside the Home Counties.





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07 Feb 2016 11:30 by Hephaestus Star rating in The Peak District Na.... 1260 posts Send private message

Mickyfinn,

I think that you are confusing the ballot box in the Palace of Westminster with that of the ones in the voting stations around the constituancies, where MP's will cast their votes in the EU referendum. 

 

 

 



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I'm Spartacus, well why not?




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07 Feb 2016 11:47 by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1773 posts Send private message

GB45

Tadd, calling people "thickos" for contemplating voting out in the referendem doesn't help. Also saying the UK will cause more misery and poverty than even the EU by leaving is a ridiculous statement. Do you really think that all the members of the EU work together for the common good? Most joined for what they could get out of it not for humanitarian reasons.Most people will vote for what they think will be best for themselves and then the UK. Is that any different from what you are contemplating? You live in Spain and think that it would be best for YOU if the UK votes to stay.

I make no apology for the thickos comment becasue that is a fact simple really they will follwo the dailyu rags and Tony down the pub

A UK exit will destroy the UK economy, so many companies will leave the UK (plans are already afoot even more so than during the Scottish vote) many contracts will be moved out of UK for many reasons and there are a lot of countries with lower labour costs ready to open their doors and eventually the rich areas of the UK will also want their own local  independance as they will not like supporting the poorer areas as they currently do

I agree with your comment as to why many joined the EU but that is what needs to change for the benefit of every citizen which teh UK should support that and not run away and throw dummies out the cot (the dummies will break)

Yes I live in Spain but I have quite a few business interests in the UK and staying in the EU is a priorty for one of them

 



_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”



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07 Feb 2016 11:59 by Roberto Star rating in Torremolinos. 4129 posts Send private message

Roberto´s avatar

ads: "Voters need to be provided with far more facts from both camps (in or out) rather than base their decision on false assumptions."

Amen to that!

Micky: "The unregistered Brits who wish to become residents will possibly have to apply for a visa". If this discussion is meant to be about the possible impact of a Brexit on UK nationals living in Spain, why are "unregistered" Brits relevant? If they haven't registered as residents in Spain when it's legal and easy for them to do so, why on earth would they give a fig about doing so when it's not? If they are unregistered now, how will they be affected? They currently can't access the Spanish healthcare system, can't claim benefits here, can't work legally....what will change?

The most entertaining post so far has to be Jontymellor's, almost none of which I can make sense of!

"do not reside in Spain full time...have a property in Spain...I spend no more than 6 months here". So, non-resident in Spain?
"fell foul of the new NHS rule for S1 healthcare for early retirees". So...non-resident in the UK, otherwise what would you be applying for an S1 for anyway?
"I'm also registered disabled". Err...where UK? Spain?
"I have a Spanish reg car...to drive in EU countries uk included". So definitely NOT UK resident then, as it would be illegal to drive a Spanish registered car there?
"100,000 reduction of imergrants per year will be far out wade"..(seriously?)..."by unregistered EU expats retuning to the UK". Same question as to Micky: why would "unregistered" expats be bothered? And "up to 1 million returning expats". Why?



_______________________

 

"First get your facts; then you can distort them at your leisure"

Mark Twain

 

 

 




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07 Feb 2016 12:06 by Mickyfinn Star rating. 1336 posts Send private message

Nope Hephaestus no confusion but lets not be perdantic. I like this by Peter Hitchins.

Referendums are held for the benefit of politicians, not for the good of the country. Like the super-oily Harold Wilson 40 years ago, the eel-like David Cameron is trying to slither out of an internal party crisis.

He hopes to neutralise for ever the annoying faction of Tory MPs called 'Eurosceptics'. I personally don't know why he bothers.

If these people haven't the guts to leave the Tory Party, the most pro-EU organisation in Britain, then why should we believe that they have the guts to leave the EU itself? Yappity-yap, they have gone for years, occasionally sinking their boneless gums harmlessly into the trousers of one Tory leader or another.

Maybe you are right. They will campagin one way and vote in an altogether opposite direction. That's politicians.

Roberto.

What may, and I stress the 'may' could be the Spanish governments attitude to illegal Brits if they are no longer members of the EU. I visted by local doctors surgery last week in Spain I saw with my own eyes the medical staff refusing to treat a Brit who was flashing the EHIC. That is one small example. With so many illegal Brits in Spain now a crackdown is surely long overdue.



 

 


This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 07/02/2016.



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07 Feb 2016 12:28 by Roberto Star rating in Torremolinos. 4129 posts Send private message

Roberto´s avatar

Tadd: "I make no apology for the thickos comment becasue that is a fact simple really they will follow the daily rags and Tony down the pub". Delighted to see "Our Tony" enterring into EOS folklore!!! laugh

"...many companies will leave the UK....and there are a lot of countries with lower labour costs ready to open their doors". Interesting point, and maybe true, but why aren't companies already moving to where the labour costs are lower then? Why is it that the workers from the poorer countries are all moving to the UK (among others)?

I like the Peter Hitchins quote. And as Baz said, "Why aren't the ministers who still want in not scare-mongering of the possibility that the EU freedom of movement would be stopped along with many other stoppages". Why indeed? Most of the voting public are indeed "thickos" who don't know what they're voting for, albeit through no fault of their own.

And Micky, once again, you throw in a red herring: "..doctors surgery last week in Spain I saw with my own eyes the medical staff refusing to treat a Brit who was flashing the EHIC". Why would they "treat" him? The EHIC is for emergency treatment only. This Brit should have gone to A&E, he was in the wrong place. Thicko! 

 



_______________________

 

"First get your facts; then you can distort them at your leisure"

Mark Twain

 

 

 




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07 Feb 2016 13:04 by ads Star rating. 3069 posts Send private message

Surely among undecided voters there are many who are distrustful of the status quo, horrified by the mismanagement and major waste of funds and fraudulent actvities that remain unregulated within the EU, disillusioned by the failure to address compromising issues relating to the rule of law, and more importantly frustrated by the impotence to influence necessary reform given the current structure of the EU.

Therefore, until the "in" campaign are prepared to face these major issues and identify realistic future strategies to resolve these problems if Britain were to remain in the EU, wont the tendency be to conclude that these issues are unresolvable?

More detailed information is required I'm afraid as to which other countries within the EU appear commited and willing to work alongside Britain and whether this is sufficient a majority to gain necessary reform and adress these uncomfortable realities. There is much ignorance in this regard which will influence voter's decision making.





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07 Feb 2016 14:03 by baz1946 Star rating. 1838 posts Send private message

 If it's the thickos who follow the daily rag and media section who are going to vote out......

Where are the bright sparks getting the correct information that the UK will be so much worse of if it leaves?

After all the bright spark blair got it wrong on Iraq...Brown got it wrong on gold sales...Osbourne has got it wrong on pensions...Cameron does a U turn every chance he can....And these are just the latest few and a couple of "Got it wrongs".

Are these the "Bright Sparks" we must listen to?

 Or is it all those who have decided they alone, and only them know what will happen, becaues I for one would really love to know how they know....For sure...That is.

 

 





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07 Feb 2016 14:52 by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1773 posts Send private message

Roberto

 but why aren't companies already moving to where the labour costs are lower then? Why is it that the workers from the poorer countries are all moving to the UK (among others)?

It is happneing but there are also benefits of using the UK as a member of the EU Including return on UK invetsments, access to EU for none EU countries (import export), requirements for a lot of contracts to be performed in EU, political influence - yes it does happen and supports UK industry, once you are not a member these beneifts and influences will decline also due to the freedom of movement UK can still get cheaper labour from EU and people come to the UK for the additonal state benefits support low paid workers get - the brist won't do these low paid jobs as we all know

ads

Surely among undecided voters there are many who are distrustful of the status quo, horrified by the mismanagement and major waste of funds and fraudulent actvities that remain unregulated within the EU, disillusioned by the failure to address compromising issues relating to the rule of law, and more importantly frustrated by the impotence to influence necessary reform given the current structure of the EU.

do you really think the UK govt, the current UK structure and any future structures are /will be any different or better?? They have been doing this and messing it up for years long before the EU and IMO brexit will make it far worse and more suffering for the majority especially the poor and working classes in the UK

baz1946

one can only hope that the bright sparks can actually think for themselves, work it out a better, balance all views, question the scaremongering, do a bit more research and see the bigger picture ultimatley helping them make a more reasoned choice other than immigration which BTW will  not go away especially for the asylum seekers and persecuted refugees etc.  - do you really think that brexit woud stop the issues at Calais etc. and these trying to get into the UK?

 

 



_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”



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07 Feb 2016 15:00 by Jarvi Star rating in Halifax UK. 454 posts Send private message

Tadd keep going, the only person you are going to convince to stay in is yourself....

Signed Thicko,

"who doesn't follow what the media says but makes a decision based on what is best for the UK based on the last 40 years of experience" and doesn't know Tony.





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07 Feb 2016 15:17 by ads Star rating. 3069 posts Send private message

Many need reassurances that future reform of the EU is possible, so why dont the in campaign provide strategic plans as to how necessary reform could be realistically achieved, to alleviate peoples' insecurities and criticisms?

If the EU doesn't have a strategic plan then that hardly inspires confidence or demonstrates a willingness to reform. This is not a judgemental observation, moreover its meant to be constructive, and yet again a request for further information......

p.s. I'd also like to know how the EU plan to make large corporations more accountable and pay their fair share of tax, and whilst we are about it, how they plan to enforce Banks to be more compliant and ethical in their business practices .

 

This message was last edited by ads on 07/02/2016.


This message was last edited by ads on 07/02/2016.



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07 Feb 2016 15:29 by Roberto Star rating in Torremolinos. 4129 posts Send private message

Roberto´s avatar

Very true, ads. Seems to me Cameron has kind of shot himself in the foot, because many un-decided's are probably now erring towards OUT since all the non-information is, as you say, feeding their insecurities. People's attention is being drawn to problems that they were probably blissfully unaware of before. 

Tadd, maybe I misunderstood you. I was, and assumed you were, referring to companies leaving the UK for other EU countries. In the context of Brexit, I thought Brits were concerned about imergrants (!!) from countries such as Romania & Bulgaria - not Syria & Afghanistan, who would keep arriving in the UK regardless. So, as I said, why would companies, who want to be IN the EU, but are attracted by cheap labour, be more likely to leave and set up in, say, Romania, after a Brexit. Why don't they do so now? There must be other reasons/advantages to being located in the UK?



_______________________

 

"First get your facts; then you can distort them at your leisure"

Mark Twain

 

 

 




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07 Feb 2016 15:37 by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1773 posts Send private message

ads

p.s. I'd also like to know how the EU plan to make large corporations more accountable and pay their fair share of tax, and whilst we are about it, how they plan to enforce Banks to be more compliant and ethical in their business practices .

pps i would like to know how a UK govt outside (or inside)  the EU will do the same or in fact how the RoW is going to do the same?

jarvo

I don't need convincing my mind is made up, I am not trying to convince anyone else just my opinions and if you do not like what I say / post then get over it - reallly no need for your comment but I suppose you are entilted to your viewcheeky



_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”



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07 Feb 2016 16:59 by Mickyfinn Star rating. 1336 posts Send private message

The principle downside risks of a Brexit for UK multinational business according to CMC Capital Markets..

1.Brexit could lead to burdensome changes of regulations and restrictions on how the company could move money and staff around the world.

2. A significant proportion of the regulatory regime applicable to corporate companies in the UK and anticipated regulatory reform is derived from EU directives and regulations. A vote in favour of the UK exiting the EU could materially change the regulatory framework applicable to these group’s operations.

3. Multinational corporations based in the UK could be required to become re-authorised in multiple European jurisdictions. In addition, a UK exit could result in restrictions on the movement of capital and the mobility of personnel. Any of these risks could result in higher operating costs and have a material adverse effect on business, prospects, financial condition and results of operations.





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07 Feb 2016 20:02 by ads Star rating. 3069 posts Send private message

Very few of those points re "downside risks" will be understood by the general voting public unless the direct impact on them as individuals is identified. Financial jargon and hidden ramifications is part of the reason why Jo Public has become so distrusting of large corporations and financial institutions and traders (CMC Markets is apparently a UK based financial derivatives dealer, is this correct?).

So in the interest of keeping this simple (ish!) here’s a few questions for the "in" campaign that may be of relevance to the voting public:-

Is there a strategic plan and commitment in place by the EU to negotiate alongside other countries (RoW?) to achieve a global agreement re a fair tax regime with large corporations, and has any realistic timeframe been identified?

Is there a strategic plan in place to ensure European Banks adhere to the Rule of Law and Banking compliance/ethical practice?

Is there a strategic plan in place to reform the mismanagement and major waste of funds and fraudulent activities that remain unregulated within the EU?

Is there any plan to provide annual EU audited accounts with full transparency?

These are just a few questions, but reassurances and comprehensible factual detail on these major concerns, together with other "insecurities", as previously identified within this thread would act as incentive for the “in” campaign would it not?

p.s. CMC Markets appears to be a UK based financial derivatives dealer offering online trading in spread betting, contracts for difference (CFD’s) and foreign exchange (forex) across the world markets.

CFD’s and spread bets are derivative products, which allow clients to engage in trading the financial markets without owning the underlying instruments.

Question: Wasn’t it toxic derivatives that needed bailouts from Governments and Write-Downs to solve the problems (global financial crisis)? Banks were able to play “hard and fast” with rules and devise their own rules for derivative trading outside the purview of the regulatos. Excessive risk taking by derivative trading resulted in the crash of 2008…. Hardly inspires confidence with Jo Public, does it?

 


This message was last edited by ads on 07/02/2016.



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07 Feb 2016 21:20 by baz1946 Star rating. 1838 posts Send private message

Immigration and all that keep coming here are the least of the worries that the UK people have, this alone has nothing to do with why many people in the UK want out, sure it's mentioned nearly all the time when you chat about the general state of the country as it is.

Every one I speak with knows full well in no way will we be ever able to throw out whats here now, but their has to be a cap on the amount that comes in, the UK has to have full control over it's borders something it has not got now. 

Government ministers cut back on everything they can yet expect all the services to spend on accommodating the millions who would come here, and its wise to remember that many who are arriving in the various countries have messed up the country they were brought up in and want to leave, and you don't have to believe the media to know they will do this to any host country, ask Germany for one.

Most of the issue's spoken about leaving are the way the EU wants to take over with its stupid rules, never ending waste of ever rising costs, almost everyday something new comes out that in reality has no use in the real world and puts so much strain and more money problems on business that they struggle to keep up with it.

Don't anyone even try to believe any company will leave the UK if the vote is out, some might but they were probably on the point of leaving anyway due to the EU crap they have to put up with here, how many times has it been said by so many celebrities, ministers, and anyone with an opinion that they will leave the UK if this and that happens, still here though.

Most likely some companies could come here due to the noose being removed from the EU.

For the life of me I cannot understand if an elected Prime Minister who will not protect and be loyal to the UK, and he's not, thats plain to see, why on earth are people so ready to believe him when he says we would all be better of in, and that its good for England.

 

 





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07 Feb 2016 22:15 by bobaol Star rating. 2262 posts Send private message

bobaol´s avatar

So that's it then, the EU is to blame for everything. Ads and others don't want the big, all consuming EU to control everything and then asks why they don't regulate national taxes. They don't have anything to do with taxes except VAT. That big firms get around paying taxes is down to tax rules in individual countries, not EU rules. Rant against our own elected representatives first.

Same with bank regulations. The USA followed by the UK are the ones that deregulated the banks, not the EU. Gordon Brown in our case. Other things are pointless answering again because people listen to some of the hysterical press and, no matter how much it's disproved, refuse to believe otherwise. EU audit of accounts, for example. They have been audited and signed off for many years despite what some would have you believe. Look it up. The last accounts were signed off by the auditors albeit with a 4.8% margin of error. To put that in context, the USA accounts were signed off with a 5% margin of error and the UK welfare budget was signed off with a 5.8% error of accounting and fraud. But it's the nasty, corrupt EU so they must be doing it on purpose.

Baz1946 says immigration is the least of worries and then goes on at length about immigration. It IS one of the biggest topics which is why, with all the boat people coming in from Syria and other countries, is why the vote for out is going up all the time. Read the papers, it's the main topic.

Yes, the EU has many problems but making things up simply muddies the waters. It needs changing, and more changing than Cameron has claimed. Following the EU rules on residency like other countries do would help for a start. Even one of the NHS bosses said the other day that people arriving in UK can be deemed normal resident on day 1 simply by giving a friend's address so can acces the NHS straight away. Yet returning expats who may have paid into the system have to wait 6 months. Ludicrous! There isn't even a register of people entering the country, let alone one of people leaving.

H&S, working times and holidays for workers have greatly improved due to EU regulation so it's not all bad.  Deregulation of airlines making travel easier and cheaper, deregulation of telecomms, freedom of movement and goods, inter bank transfers and many other things have come about because of the EU regardless of what some rant and rave about.

As someone who lives in Spain, I like walking through airports as a EU citizen, not waiting at borders in my car, not being searched by customs to see if I'm over the 1l of spirits and 200 limit. I like having healthcare for free, my pension rises, the dual taxation system and many other things that I enjoy as a right.

Now, just waiting for this post to be twisted and taken out of context like my previous one was. The EU is a big market for UK. Immigration to UK will not stop overnight (it was going on long before the EU).

I also don't believe we'd need visas nor do I believe firms will up and leave UK.  On the other hand, the pound has gone from 1.43 to below 1.3 since the out campaign gained ground.

Please vote whichever way you want, in or out. But please don't present hearsay, rumours, scaremongering or what someone told you up the pub as actual, irrefutable facts. Because the truth is, nobody knows what will happen. I've been asking for over a year, on social media sites and to my MP as was in UK to lay out exactly what it will mean to those of us living in an EU country  as well as those in UK.  I have received what one MP stated was "male bovine poo".

Guesses, rumours, Armageddon both ways. No help or true facts either way.

 





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07 Feb 2016 23:25 by ads Star rating. 3069 posts Send private message

In the interest of fairness and transparency I came across this article and was just about to post this Bobaol but your posting came through first.

http://www.britishinfluence.org/it_s_the_british_media_that_needs_auditing

This doesn't inspire confidence either, in which case, if this does prove to be factual (do the EU use independent auditors?), might this further the argument for effective independent press regulation and in the interim seek out alternative independent trusted reporting sources?

I and many others just want facts. But with regards to the Banks and the EU, they have failed miserably to protect citizens from Banking abuse and property rights issues even when presented with a myriad of facts.

 

 


This message was last edited by ads on 08/02/2016.



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