| The Comments |
Bobaol who were you aiming your response to?
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Not you, ads. Looks like you posted at the same time as I was replying to the forum clown wag.
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Phew! ;) Thanks for clarifying!
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The one thing I think is dishonest in this referendum debate is the suggestion Britain can control immigration better if it left the EU.
I don't hear or read any proposals from the brexiteers on exactly how that would be achieved.
If after a vote to leave Britain blocked all migration and required visas from all EU nationals there would be a massive backlash. The EU would impose a quid pro quo system on all British migration and bilateral treaties especially with France would be torn up. Britain would also be ejected from the single market. Why? Because free movement and right of residence in any EU state is a precondition of membership both of the EU and EFTA.
In truth immigration from the EU goes hand in hand with the single market. You cannot have one without the other.
Brexiteers would have you believe Britain can have their cake and eat it too. What brexit actually means is excommunication from the largest single trading block on the planet. I see no other alternative if the country has to control migration from Europe because of this vote.
How can that be a sensible move for a country whose economic life blood is trade?
The Italian finance minister made a valid comment yesterday. He said once the EU and Britain starts a de-entaglement process after an out vote, nobody can predict how it will end or the damage it will do to everyone involved.
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 12/05/2016.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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This referendum is about how UK voters living in the UK perceive EU membership, not about the protection of the rights of EU expats living in Spain. Every time I visit Spain I witness the results of EU initiatives, where I live there is no sign of any such initiatives, hotels and grade 2 listed pubs are closing at 20 to the dozen, farmers are selling up to wealthy folk who wish to sample the good life, the main road to the historic village of Eyam slid down the hill circa two years ago, without any sign of the EU cavalry coming to it's assistance.
The city of my birth was the centre of UK steel production, was being the operative word, it's demise also signed the death warrant of the associated engineering industry, I also recall the UK having fishing, car building, ship building and aerospace industries, we have a terminal shortage of housing, and have to pay through the nose in respect of EU benefits tourists, are we supposed to be happy with our lot?
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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Mickeyfinn,
If all these facts are true then why have the EU Commission and Parliamentarians been so reticent to adequately address the need for reform to date and be willing to strive for solutions to mitigate ongoing concerns of those with so many grievances against the status quo?
Isn't this also a form of dishonesty by the remain campaigners without any proposals on the scope of required reform and how this can be realistically achieved given the status quo?
My point being that aren't there important issues from BOTH camps that still need to be openly addressed so that voters can be sufficiently informed prior to voting?
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Yes but I hear everywhere the principle beef with the EU people British people have is immigration and how it's changing their society.
I would argue immigrants compliments and inproves it but that's just my view. My point is you cannot change immigration without exit from the single market. Its dishonest to argue otherwise.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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I well recall that on the 23rd October 1983 I drove on Dore Road, just a few hundred yards from where Arthur Hutchinson had on that day murdered solicitor Basil Laitner, his wife Dr Averil Laitner along with their son Richard and raped their 18 year old daughter Nichola, this happened following the wedding reception of their daughter Suzanne in their home.
I mention this because those clowns in The Hague felt it against Hutchinson's human rights to keep him incarcerated for the remainder of his life, they also asked for Peter Sutcliffe (The Yorkshire Ripper) to be treat similarly, the mind boggles.
Stuff this EU idiocy.
This message was last edited by Hephaestus on 12/05/2016.
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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European human rights judges have upheld the right of British courts to impose “whole life” prison sentences in the most heinous cases of murder. (3rd February 2015)
http://www.theguardian.com/law/2015/feb/03/european-human-rights-whole-life-tariff-hutchinson
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Here we go again. Hep, totally and absurdly wrong. The European Court of Human Rights said that whole life sentences at the beginning were wrong. The guilty person had a right to have the case reviewed not stuck in prison for the rest of their life. The judge could give, say, 20 years after which the case would be reviewed. They could then give another 20 years and so on.
Plus, where does the "Stuff this EU idiocy" come from? The ECHR was founded (and UK was a founder member) long before the EU came into existence. The ECHR is not an EU institution so don't confuse the fact it has European in it's name as being part of the European Union. The UK Human Rights Act of 1998 confirmed the UK membership of the ECHR. Until that HRA 1998 is repealed then we would still be bound by the ECHR regardless of being in the EU or not. And the ECHR is located in Strasbourg, not the Hague which is the International Court of Justice (not even European in that title).
Again, blaming the EU on everything when it has nothing to do with it. I hired a car from Europcar a while back. I suppose if something had gone wrong with it I could have blamed the EU because it says Europ. And if I'd used European Removals to shift my furniture and they lost something I could claim against the EU, after all, it's called European.
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So all is well Micky, it will have cost a few hundred grand in legal costs to over rule something that should never have even been mentioned in the first place. 
_______________________
I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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To clarify one post about the UK going into recession again, it's not yet, but things here are changing slightly for the worse and it could look like it's coming, we have been to a couple of large shopping centres lately and to be honest the large car parks were close to being empty, the shops were not busy at all, those that were buying seemed to use the card more then not.
BT is putting up it's prices next month, Sky is putting up it's prices this month, TV licence is going up, Got I-player need a TV licence now, Fuel is rising quicker then it ever dropped, Council tax has gone up, BHS is very uncertain, I know of one care home that has put up it's prices by £80,00 per person a month, another one is closing down, just in one small area and all this seems to have come about since the minimum wage has risen, coincidence or not but as one boss told me "I cant put up my prices as my customers wont buy, but I can sack some to cover extra costs" and he did, 2 people, not my idea of tackling the problem.
These are no doubt nothing to do with the EU in any big way.
The general feeling in the UK right now is that when anything goes wrong the EU is to blame, and can you blame the people, for years past now all we hear about is the EU says this, that, and the other, cant do this because it's against EU rules, over the top ex's being paid out while workers wages have decreased, never no mind it might not be the fault of the EU, but it can seem that way.
The immigration problem here is at the front of everything, forget all the rubbish about we need a diverse population, for the most they are scroungers who have been told England will pay them in gold, and it does, yet cuts benefits to the genuine UK born people.
If you couple everything together that is wrong with the UK right now is it any wonder no one cares about the EU....So long as they can get out and try it the other way.
This message was last edited by baz1946 on 12/05/2016.
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If you watched Mark Carny, b of e governor on Bloomberg TV today you will be left in no doubt the UK economy is slowing already due to uncertainty with Brexit. He almost said a recession would be inevitable after a brexit vote but danced around the question saying the shock would cause major problems going forward. Sterling would dive sharply and growth decline. He said a ‘vote to leave the EU would cost jobs and raise prices’.
Now you can say he’s not now independent of any campaign. Or he saying it as he sees it and giving the public his honest opinion. You can choose.
Do turkeys vote for Christmas? Perhaps they might if enough dodgy propaganda is swallowed. The last recession brought untold misery to millions. Why risk that happening again? Just as the country and its people have slowly emerged battered and scarred from the greatest slump since the nineteen thirties.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Micky, what did you expect him to say?
The Pope believes in god, it sort of goes with the job. 
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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Yes that cynicism is what I would expect. However the Governor role is independent of government and politics. If the numbers crunchers who advise him get it wrong Carney will be ridiculed. Ask yourself is he going to risk that simply to side with a particular point of view?
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Of course he is, it's the smart move, however smart often comes second, also I'm a realist not a cynic, just because I disagree with you.
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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However the Governor role is independent of government and politics.
If you beleive that then if you were a turkey you would certainly vote for Christmas.
Gordon Brown made the Bank of England responsible for setting interest rates independantly (one of his two good moves) this does not by any stretch of the imagination make the B of E independant.
Cameron promised a fair campaign with both sides allowed to spend the same amount. He has spent lots of government money promoting in and has leaned on everyone he can to support his position. Many that he has leaned on have been strictly politically neutral in all other political campaigns. The process is flawed and democracy as a whole will suffer if the prime minister minister behaves like he is running a banana republic and expects every government apointee to toe his line.
Tony Blair started the rot by appointing his accolites instead of using the civil service. Governments of both types in the UK have been erroding the principals of good government.
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Mark Carney is one of the most intelligent people I have ever meant. His integrity in my view is unquestionable. I liked Mervyn King and he was a real nice guy but Carney is in a separate league.
I am surprised he has made the statement he has about the risk of Brexit. I am sure that he would not have made it unless he saw it as a real risk that we all needed to take into account.
Leave campaign will not like it. Rather than argue the comments down that dope Mogg says he should resign. Basically if you say something that the leave campaign can't attack with nonsense they start calling for resignations. I hope the British public remembers all the politicians who supported "leave" at the next election and send them packing.
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'Mark Carney is one of the most intelligent people I have ever meant'.
I'm fairly certain that this sentiment isn't reciprocal.
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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There are certain risks Mark Carney must have considered. His position is undermined if after a Brexit vote his predictions don't come to pass.
You can see this in two ways. Either he is very confident of a remain vote so his predictions are never tested. Or he is very certain he is right. If it's the latter, vote leave are risking hard times for the British economy.
I doubt history has ever known a population actually voting for an economic recession. Consider also the futures of the politicians shouting to leave. If Britain as expected in plunged into a long recession then their personal careers will be toast. The electorate have long memories. The words 'I told you so' will ring loud in their ears from Mr Carney.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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