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There is currently much ignorance with regard to how in reality the EU functions and how it impacts citizens and upholds their democratic rights.
The irony to much of this is that the UK has been seen as one of the most moral countries in terms of regulation and protection of rights ( not perfect by any means I hasten to add) and many member states have expressed pleasure from their influence in this regard.
And yet when it comes to realities and impact on how the EU functions and the failures that have directly negatively impacted citizens that have been brought to light in these recent fraught years that desperately required reform and flexibility, they have turned a blind eye.
This message was last edited by ads on 23/10/2016.
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Hugh, I just can't understand your thinking process so I gofogled Jaywick Sands hoping for insight...Top Response:
"How Jaywick Sands became the most deprived area in the UK. New documentary Jaywick Escapes casts light on a part of Essex that has changed from a holiday retreat to a rundown refuge for troubled Londoners."
I think I understand you better now and why you always seem so disappointed.
ads, the EU did not accept CETA without scrutiny, there was years of it. But if small groups are left to their own devices they are likely to resist anything that smacks of change (ie the Walloons). Trade Treaties aerr always give and take...that is why they involve negotiations. Not everyone can be a winner, some people don't gain very much. It is rare that people lose out. In the case of the Belgium Region, they don't see themselves as winners so they are happy to blocvk it for everyone else. They however are also not losers in the package...they just have not got as much as they wanted.
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Very true ads, we have a reputation for obeying rules, I recall an American friend joking that one brit is fine, but with two you have the makings of a queue. The problem with the EU is that they never spotted the warning signs, they treat the UK like a glorified money pit, and obviously forgot Margaret Thatcher's actions and words when they did the same during her tenure. Our exit is of their makings, Germany, Italy and France will have to make up the financial shortfall that the UK's absence with cause.
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IF YOU WISH TO QUOTE ANY OF MY POSTS PLEASE DO SO IN THEIR ENTIRETY AND NOT JUST A FEW SELECTED WORDS TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT.
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Perrypower again generalisations that in reality do not apply.
There is a great difference to being obstructive vs highlighting incredibly important aspects that in their making have the potential to affect a large majority of EU citizens, not least the proliferation of division and intolerance and the protection of citizens rights with due adherence to the rule of law.
These are fundamental issues that affect us all.
The EU fails in that there is such diversity within member states, each at different stages in their development, that without in built due flexibility to comprehend and avert division and intolerance, (by not compromising those in advanced stages and placing them at risk of undermining all that they have achieved in terms of their rights, infrastructure, social structures etc) they are doing a grave disservice to their citizens
. One size does not at this stage in the development of the EU fit all and they need to respect this reality via a far more flexible approach which includes the need for adequate preplanning and realistic timeframes in the interim.
P.s. have you examined the EU scrutiny with regard to CETA and the outstanding issues that place member states at risk from large corporate legal challenge in its current form?
This message was last edited by ads on 23/10/2016.
This message was last edited by ads on 23/10/2016.
This message was last edited by ads on 23/10/2016.
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Perry/Micky very BRITISH of you to JUDGE someone by where they LIVE
None of my posts contain DISSAPOINTMENT only OPTIMISM
I AM the only BRIT on here that has seen ALL THREE SIDES of life OVERSEAS
AS I say this FORUM was designed to help EXPATS and all your POSTS are doing is worrying nice NORMAL FOLK
Wheres the GOOD in that
Love Hugh xxx
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Done the Spain thing Happier in the UK
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http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brexit-fears-prompt-britains-biggest-banks-to-prepare-to-leave-uk_uk_580c628de4b0fce107d0e564?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D734279128_uk
The banks are moving - good news or bad news or more scaremongering
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Mr Jardon.
Please don't alledge Perry and I are the same person. It is a very silly claim simply because we have similar views on Brexit and our posts cut across your own and if I may say so slightly bizarre comments. The mods of this forum could confirm if they so wish to please.
Tadd.
It's been fashionable since the credit crash to knock the banking industry because US investment funds created mayhem in the world. Actually the banks play a leading role in the economy of the British nation and it's GDP. I have never seen them as villains, only greedy perhaps but even greed was good in the eighties.
If the banks leave the City who will be next? The insurance giants are also considering moving to Ireland I hear. Many companies have shelved investment until the process of Brexit becomes clearer.
If you were the CEO of a major corporation dependent on the single market for a substantial portion of your profit and to keep your stockholders content, would you not be at least scanning the capitals of Europe for opportunity?
I think there may be some truth in that article if only as far at this stage perhaps is what we all should do and that’s consider our options, make a plan and then wait and see.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Investment decisions?
If you were a manager in a large firm and had been working towards either buying an acquisition target, building a factory, or making some other kind of large investment that facilitated trade within the EU, how do you think the current economic climate might affect decisions?
Quite frankly, all this discussion about banks to me seems spot on the money. They have business streams of revenue that they are responsible to for their shareholders (not to mention their own fat bonus cheques). Even the possibility that passporting rights will go (decided by the EU, not by the hopes, dreams, and aspirations of some people who seem to be living in cloud cuckoo land), would make any responsible manager at least want to consider contingencies.
More to the point, these same managers would now need to defer any investment that might be wasted, if passporting were, in fact, removed.
The result would seem to be a lot of investment being put on hold.
I come back to a previous poster making mention of negotiations in terms of a boxer. I find it more than a little bizarre that that exact phrase would be used, of all the infinite possibilities to express an opinion. It would suggest to me, that this is, indeed, being looked at, in a gladiatorial manner. Why? Why on earth would someone want to view these critical negotiations in just such a confrontational mannner? These are quite possibly the most important negotiations that will occur for this country for the next decade or two. Surely it is in everyones interests to try and have positive, win-win outcomes, rather than all-or-nothing "boxing" style outcomes?
Perhaps the view is formed in the belief that our "boxer" has knockout power, or can somehow beat the opposition to a pulp? This kind of thinking seems to me to be dangerous, or at the very least, bordering on unwise.
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Well written Rob; the problem is some posters don't understand how negotiations work. They are not adversarial; if they are then they end in failure for at least one party.
Negotiations are not like a game of poker either. People say you must keep your cards close to your chest which is also not true. You put forward your case and the other side does theirs. What you agree on is left to one side (but not agreed to avoid cherry picking). What is not agreed is focused on and the parties try to find common ground or offer each other trade-offs in a non-commital manner until a unified solution is found. It takes a long time to discuss and longer to document and longer still to scrutinise and finalise.
The suggestion that somehow we can blindside the EU and trick them into an agreement they cannot live with is naive. The longer that approach is used the longer it is before the eral negotiations can begin. Remember this is not a contest. It is a serious business and social arrangement where all parties have to come away as winners.
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Hugh, I am really not trying to be hurtful or spiteful about where you live, just trying to understand your viewpoint which I find very unrealistic at times. You are also not the only expat that has seen all three sides of life overseas. I've been an expat on four continents and live in the UK.
People, including expats are worried. You can't make things up to placate their fears if they are not true or can't be justified. The only help any of us can offer expats who have potential Brexit issues is knowledge. Knowledge is always preferable to ignorance. It really is not right that people should have to just hope for the best. They/we should and are entitled to know the truth before it slaps us in the face.
Ads, our own government is the biggest threat to our rights. They want to bin them without reference to Parliament. Yes I've reviewed the issue you speak of in CETA and the proposed method is preferable to the legal process that is currently available. Governments cannot be above the laws they enact or we are all doomed.
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The only help any of us can offer expats who have potential Brexit issues is knowledge.
Better nor look here then.
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How about the regular posters stating where they think we will be in 3 years time?
Could be instructional.
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Ads. That is why it will be so hard for the UK to negotiate a trade deal with the EU. That is why the very notion of a Hard Brexit has shown up at the table. All the talk of getting a great deal is vanishing into thin air as reality bites.
The only question is how far the government will go before Brexit becomes too hard to carry out. Is the government really going to put a million people out of work and lose 20% of the tax base to appease those who voted leave. Or will they cheat. Say we are out even though for all intents and purposes we are in.
The referendum does not bind the government to do anything...what if they do nothing?
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With regard to your observation " our Govt want to bin our rights without reference to Parliament "....it appears they are already referencing Parliament with many hours being dedicated to debate as we speak.
Surely you are not suggesting that your rights include the right to ignore the majority vote of the British public?
You are not addressing any of the concerns with regard to the current EU intransigent system and failures by the EU bureaucrats which are proliferating division and intolerance across Europe. Why is that? Are you not equally concerned by these failures that have the potential to destroy civilised society?
Would you honestly prefer to be ruled by such a system than our own system which is renowned for its moral adherence to the rule of law and respect for democratic rights and regulatory structure, where the voice of the people is openly debated with transparency and far greater accountability than currently exists in the EU?
This message was last edited by ads on 24/10/2016.
This message was last edited by ads on 24/10/2016.
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rob_j1
you wrote:
I come back to a previous poster making mention of negotiations in terms of a boxer. I find it more than a little bizarre that that exact phrase would be used, of all the infinite possibilities to express an opinion. It would suggest to me, that this is, indeed, being looked at, in a gladiatorial manner. Why? Why on earth would someone want to view these critical negotiations in just such a confrontational mannner? These are quite possibly the most important negotiations that will occur for this country for the next decade or two. Surely it is in everyones interests to try and have positive, win-win outcomes, rather than all-or-nothing "boxing" style outcomes?
I don't view this in a 'gladatoria mannerl', it was an analogy.... get a life,
You do not show the opposition your cards when you are playing poker, you do not go to the bazaar and offer the amount you want to pay, you do not in business set your prices at the lowest you can survive on, you leave a little back to barter with... the EU negotiaitons will follow the same principles..... Now this may upset you Perry / Micky that the government of the day have not said hold all the negotiations and plans, we need to consult Rob / Micky / Perry first.... pick any one of the analogies above that does not offend you.
Perhaps the view is formed in the belief that our "boxer" has knockout power, or can somehow beat the opposition to a pulp? This kind of thinking seems to me to be dangerous, or at the very least, bordering on unwise.
We do not need 'knockout power', we just need the oppostion to belive we have the 'knockout power'
And yes, before you get all excited about the term 'opposition', I am afraid that is what they will be at the time of negotiations.
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Hi Brando55
You said:
From the people point of view the first big issue and litmus test is how Japanese investment in the Nissan plant will carry forward. If this is scaled down over the next weeks announcements and plants are thought to be taken into the main body of Europe then the very regions that voted hardest for the leave vote will have an almighty shock.
I read 2 weeks ago that Nissan had a meeting with Theresa May, when leaving the meeting he said 'after this meeting I am re-assured that the UK will be the right palce to do business after Brexit'.
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/22/gibraltar-brexit-vote-new-eu-relationship
Interesting piece in today's Guardian regarding the difficult situation Gribraltar now finds inself in with Spain after the vote to leave. 96% of Gibs voters voted to remain.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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BigAl, you could not be more wrong on how negotiations work.
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Ads, my rights are set out in the 1972 Community Act that the government intends to repeal without reference to Parliament or the electorate. And my existing rights trump any rights that the public may think they have granted themselves by voting in a non-binding, advisory referendum.
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Perrypower,
Your arguments are beginning to sound like a form of dictatorship where the majority voice of the people is to count for nothing, and the apparent refusal to address major failings in the EU system that sadly appears to be proliferating division and intolerance through their intransigence to reform and address the need for flexibilty to adequately respond to ongoing compromising circumstances, begs many questions.
Their unwillingness to address clauses in a trade agreement (CETA) that places corporations interests above the interests of the people and for whom the bureaucrats are supposed to defend, also appears very questionable.
This message was last edited by ads on 24/10/2016.
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