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So 3 eminent judges listen to both sides deliberate discuss and come to an agreement yet some think they might be wrong amazing
As the judges may be wrong further shows what a mess has been created by the govt all over a failed publicity stunt gone wrong
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I suppose some people on here and elsewhere will claim that parliament is not sovereign. As well as saying the law lords have no right or power to arrive at the decision they have and a referendum gives the people a sovereign decision. Sorry folks you are wrong.
I suggest these read up on UK constitutional law and procedure. The right wing press can huff and puff all they like but it’s the law that matters and governments, prime ministers and the people have to follow it. There is only one person who is legally above the law and that is the monarch.
The Queen has constitutional power only. It is parliament that makes laws and judges who interpret what parliament intended when the law was passed. In the case of the referendum law which created the 2016 plebiscite the result was legally none binding on the government to implement the result.
Politically desirable is another matter entirely and that is also a matter for MP's to decide. If the government is able, using its ancient prerogative powers, to manage the whole EU withdrawal process without any significant parliamentary involvement. That would be extremely undemocratic – and democracy is what we are told the EU referendum was about.
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 06/11/2016.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Tteedd
As there is no precedent, statute or case law it is a bit difficult to see how they could be right or wrong.
Perhaps they would have been more honest had they found themselves unable to give judgement.
As it is, people are certain to argue that they followed their personal preferences.
So Tteedd, are you saying the judges were dishonest? And would that opinion then come from your own decades of experience on the bench?
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Why try and make the whole thing so complicated?
We could argue 'till the cows come home about the UK constitution because we do not have one. We say that the queen is a constitutional monarch but her representitve can and has called for new elections in other countries where she is head of state and it is stll regarded as her perogative to call the leader who commands a majority (or even the largest faction) in parliament. This monarch has not interferred in matters of government, but the settlement in the UK has not changed since we had monarchs who did.
But now I am complicating things as well.
The whole thing is very simple. The electorate has voted to leave the EU.
We leave the EU.
Everything else is a side issue, and if we believe in democracy then we enact the will of the People.
Economic factors dictate that it is better to do it as quickly as possible.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 06/11/2016.
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So Tteedd, are you saying
You reprinted exactly what I said, so why put words in my mouth?
But I will go further if you wish. Many Judges had already shown their partisanship by their reaction to Michael Gove's speech at the Law Society. Such a reaction shows those who made it unfit to sit on the matter. A Jurer who expressed an opinion on the guilt of a suspect in or before trial would rightly be thrown out.
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The whole thing is complicated because in simple terms noddy knows what brexit really means and the electorate was mis informed and lied to
More clarity of the process and a sound exit plan prior to 23 June would have made it less complicated
It is clear to me and many more that the black and white vote was wrong
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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tteedd
The 'side issue' as you call it is the way the UK leaves the EU. It is crucial to the future prosperity of the nation. The legal process is not about if the UK leaves, that's decided, it's about the how.
It's about the elected representatives of the same people who indicated their preference in the referendum deciding that 'how' and that is a role parliament must have under the constitution. In a parliamentary democracy one person does not have the right to dictate the future direction of a nation for generations to come. Thank God.
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 06/11/2016.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Baz
So the judges are wrong
I have no idea Tadd, I did a copy and paste of something that a group of lawyers had posted. But I will say this, many judges are so far apart from reality they think that what the law states is only as good as whats written in the books, and not to be taken notice of unless they can work them to their own needs. Fact that has been proven many times when a criminal goes to court and the judge cares more about the criminals well being, then the victims pain.
I will however say again, and I did ask on here but got no answers, which just goes to show the one's who think they know all about this business, don't, (I am also one of them) this vote was decided that it would take place by Cameron three plus years ago, and it cost in the region of £9.5 millions of tax payers money to set up, unless the law was different back then, doubtful, why wasn't the legal implications sorted out in 2013, then this mess would never had occurred, to me it would / could have been a simple straight forward question from the government of the time, like as in....... 'Is this vote 100% legal' and or 'Can we do this'.
The answer is simple, Cameron thought, in his own wisdom, that the public would stick with the lies he told, and the 'Other' 17.5 million would never vote out, in short he thought he couldn't lose, now that is a measure of the man in charge who for years had taken no notice of what the people wanted from him and the country.
Like her or loath her Mrs May was one who wanted to stay, we voted out, she is now doing what the mass vote wanted, probable even now she still might think it's the wrong decision, but she is going with what the people of this country wanted, that in its self tells me she could be a good leader.....
But of course as we all know thats an opinion.
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The 'side issue' as you call it is the way the UK leaves the EU. It is crucial to the future prosperity of the nation. The legal process is not about if the UK leaves, that's decided, it's about the how.
I'm assured by the fact that you and most parliamentarians say that 'it's decided'. It is those that somehow think it is not that I have the real issue with.
But on your comment I would say that the government of Mr Heath (many would say without mandate) negociated what it believed was the best terms for our entry (they were pretty lousey and whipped through parliament). We should trust Mrs May's administration to negociate the best terms for our withdrawal. If they are not good we express our distisfaction at the ballot box. (It may be that they are so bad that parliament cannot agree them, then we have real problems). But having the government say what terms it wants before negociation is shear stupidity. As a free nation future administrations would be able to negociate or renegociate terms of trade with whoever we like including with the EU once we had left..
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Everyone knows what we want!! Its no secret!
We want access to the single market without having much or any free movement of people, we also don't want to pay much in the way of contributions.
We've got no hope of achieving this!
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We've got no hope of achieving this!
Sadly I think you are right, so in that event it's Brexit whatever the cost then? Not sure UK parliamentarians will agree.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Careful Micky, you will be asked, "What part of leave don't you get?" by the Brexit Brigade. Mind you, when they are asked, "what part of you have to get Parliament's approval" their response is, I want a retest, send it to the Supreme Court. They are running scared that the country might jsut say we voted wrong...let's have a new vote.
Despite trying to come to grips with the Leavers and see their view regarding the vote I am certain that I could never be amongst their ranks given their terrible attitude towards Gina Miller and the High Court Judges. Gina Miller is a national hero and should be included in the New Years honours list!
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What part of
Parliament is elected by the people for the people isn't understood?
A bit like the legal system, yes it's independent but we have lower courts, a High Court and a Supreme Court as any judges view is merely an interpretation of thecLaw as he or she sees it, that's why we have an appeal process because one view is not always final.
What is it that thexRemoaners fear so much about Brexit?
Very little will be different provide EU countries still want to buy and sell to us and they will protect our citizens as much as we will protect theirs.
It is very likely EHIC cards can continue as the country of origin is charges, perhaps the UK will get its act together here.
European Arrest Warrants are likely to remain, why shouldn't they?
The UK is not declaring UDI from Europe, the people just want a different relationship which the EU will not offer, but every major European country is suffering from protests and problems with immigration and EU bureaucracy.
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What is it that thexRemoaners fear so much about Brexit?
Actually I could ask that same question why people fear being part of a noble institution that's seeks to establish better co-operation and understanding between peoples of various nationalities and traditions. However let’s not go there, most people are now completely exhausted with Brexit.
The only issue as I see it is what terms can the UK achieve to leave the EU? Is it only to be Mrs Mays secret negotiating terms formulated behind cabinet closed doors among a cabal of favoured ministers or the debated fully aerated parliament approved terms by elected representatives of the nation.
What would you choose?
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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What would you choose?
The route that gives us the best terms. And you will not get those if you follow the absurd idea of letting the other side know your plans and negociating position before you start.
In any case there are not the difficulties the remoaners are inventing. We can expect both sides to want the terms most favourable to their own industries and services and eventually meet in the middle. The idea of punitive terms cutting of ones nose to site ones face are another absurdity. The staus quo is a good starting point.
BTW, there is nothing noble about the EU, although some of the founding precepts may have been worthy.
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tteedd
Why do you think our positionn has to be a secret. Do you think we can pull one over the EU's eyes when they are not listening/looking. On day one we have to lay our cards on the table. I see no reason not to do taht before we trigger Article 50 to gauge both their views and the views of the people in the UK.
It is no surprise what the UK wants. But the EU cannot let us have it unless they let everyone have it and that would be the end of the EU as it is. Of course the cause is noble, but we should have been fighting it from inside. Also not everyone is as open minded as you are. Nigel Farage for example just wants to distance the UK from the EU as much as he can. Does not care where we go or the cost as long as we have no ties to the EU.
Brexiters should be thanking the remainers for fighting so hard to know the deal before it gets inked. After all, are you going to be happy with the same deal as we have now? What if that is Mrs May's version of Brexit, after the fact it will be too late to stop it. Please do not be naive. The government's approach is more in line with remain than leave.
TM has made promises to parties already about staying in the Single Market. If she has to accept free movement of people and a fat fee to the EU (like Norway) she will do just that and say she promised to deliver the best deal for the country.
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Gina Miller
Have a browse through Freedom Outpost before you make up your minds about her.
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Destry,
You realise that Freedom Outpost is a US publication and the Gina Miller you are referring to is the US one, not the UK one. Please get on the right bus before you post...
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Whoops, not nearly as good looking as your Gina, what honour do you reckon she should get?
It could have been worse, I might have got her mixed up with Rita Miller. 
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IF YOU WISH TO QUOTE ANY OF MY POSTS PLEASE DO SO IN THEIR ENTIRETY AND NOT JUST A FEW SELECTED WORDS TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT.
THANK YOU.
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