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01 May 2016 11:30 PM by tteedd in Hertfordshire & Punt.... 990 posts Send private message It is only right that the richer nations support the poorer nations and what the UK does in EU is no different to how say London subsidises other poorer parts of the UK - If I recall 20 to 25% of London's taxpayers tax is used to subsidse other UK regions and tell them what to spend it on. If we were one country then perhaps I would agree with you. But since our national debt is £1.7 trillion and rising and I am told this is more than the combined debt of the eastern nations, perhaps they should be paying us? (Polands debt is £400billion) We are in no position to help out anyone else until we are at least paying of our national debt, which is inceasing by £5k per second.. 1 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
02 May 2016 1:19 AM by MikeandHelen . 193 posts Send private message Yawn, Mobile phone roaming charges. I'm with the Three Network I can roam to 18 Countries including Spain, USA, Sri Lanka, etc and my calls, texts and internet connection are part of my phone package. Tesco Mobile are apparently bringing a new roaming policy::: "A roaming fair usage policy applies when using your domestic allowance (inclusive tariff bundles) for roaming within the EU. This includes but is not limited to voice minutes, data usage and SMS. If you exceed your billing month fair usage allowance of 30 call mins, 30 SMS and 30 MB of data, chargeable rates will apply. Chargeable rates are defined as the domestic national rate or regulated roaming rate as per EU Roaming regulation EU Directive 2015/2120/EC. Tesco Mobile Ireland can amend the fair usage allowance at any time and without proactive notice, however the website will be updated with the most up-to-date information." Again, something that the scaremongers will use to say we should stay in, but really a global issue and actually, the Three policy is not restrictd by a 'fair use' policy in line with EU regulations. This is a business decision by the Mobile phone companies who operate globally, yes OFCOMM in the UK did put pressure to reduce roaming charges, and Yes the EU have a regulation (however good that may be) but nothing for the inners to jump up and down about, or may only be achieved by being in the EU. There are bigger more important domestic issues that need to be understood and voted on in the referendum. 1 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
02 May 2016 8:26 AM by Tadd1966 in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message If we were one country then perhaps I would agree with you. But since our national debt is £1.7 trillion and rising and I am told this is more than the combined debt of the eastern nations, perhaps they should be paying us? But we are told we are 1 country but we are not the UK is 4 countries andinthe forthcoming vote teh English vote will decide in or out not the other 3 countries which will spark further debates if the other 3 vote differently to England - true democracy of a union NOT The EU should be one country - sadly we are not yes the UK debt is published but what is the UK owed by mnay other countries is kept very quiet so we don't see the net debt. The last one I seen was on the BBC back in 2011 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15748696 why do we give so much foreign aid to none EU/EEA are the loans or free hand outs to those in need of help? edited to add another link from the famous daily mail back in 2012 - who do we beleive??????? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-2118152/Tangled-web-debt-Who-owes-trillions.html This message was last edited by Tadd1966 on 02/05/2016. _______________________ “The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge” 0 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
02 May 2016 10:35 AM by Mickyfinn in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message Most of the world’s conflicts and troubles are caused either by religion or nationalism. Here are two simple definitions of nationalism: A desire by a large group of people (such as people who share the same culture, history, language, etc.) to form a separate and independent nation of their own. Or: loyalty and devotion to a nation especially : a sense of national conciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups. You may see that within these two definitions lies most of the Brexiteers objections to the European Community. Many believe somehow that Britain as a nation state is watered down by its closer ties to Europe. Scottish nationalist have the same view of England as some English ‘outers’ have to Brussels. They use other reasons of course in order to make their arguments more politically acceptable. However if you scratch the surface you will find underneath a raw nationalist of these definitions in tooth and claw. François Mitterrand once said that ‘Nationalism means war’. He meant that sooner or later nation states have to resort to war in order to reinforce their own rhetoric. An example of that is modern Russia. Putin has to back up his threats and words occasionally by sending in the military somewhere within his field of influence to show the world his power. War is just diplomacy by other means. What the EU does for its member states is pool nationalist antagonism into a form of collective negotiation where military means becomes unthinkable. We are no longer foes but partners working together for a common aim. The common aim being peace and prosperity for its people. You can be cynical about all this, that’s very easy. However The EU has kept the peace in Europe for close on 70 years. Historically we warred with each other for centuries and achieved very little. _______________________ Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz. 0 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
02 May 2016 10:44 AM by baz1946 . 2327 posts Send private message good story but have to say in order to make a balanced view the full reason for the rulings are needed. not saying your family were doing any wrong but as with most things there are always 2 sides etc. why is guttering needed? what is worng with sheep that are overwieght - meat too fatty, overpriced etc. I don't know some rules may not make sense to all but often a justifible reason My Uncle was told that guttering was needed to collect and divert the rain water so that it didn't wash over the slate roof and run over and into the farm yard so the animals then didn't walk in it, the slates extended over the walls so it was impossible to fit guttering, less not forget that none of this was needed before the jerk in the EU thought it was a good idea. The two sheep were only that, to heavy / overweight, what weight they were to be beat even my uncle who had been born a farmer, the worst bit was due to these rules he couldn't pick up his live animals to bring them back, they had to be killed. Just two stupid rules of the many thousands that have affected the UK since the EU came into being. 0 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
02 May 2016 11:47 AM by tteedd in Hertfordshire & Punt.... 990 posts Send private message We are back in the nonsense stakes again. The EU has no way of keeping the peace. It started as a trading block and still has no way of forcing peace should war break out. Democracies do not go to war with one another. You illustrate that, the only country using force in Europe is effectively a dictatorship. The only threat to the peace in Europe in the past 70 years has come from the east and NATO effectively contained it. And as an aside the Greeks now dislike the Germans more than at any time since the last war. The UK would be better off outside the acrimony if the EU treats another failing economy in the same way as Greece was treated. 1 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
02 May 2016 12:03 PM by tteedd in Hertfordshire & Punt.... 990 posts Send private message But we are told we are 1 country but we are not the UK is 4 countries No, we are still one nation and have one seat at the United Nations. I am British, proud to be British, have always put British on questionaires, have English and Scottish ancestry.We (Welsh, Scottish & English) live on one Island. Although I live in Hertforshire I estimate that 10% of the seniors in my golf club were born Scots. I would like to see the end of petty nationalism within the UK and be given a vote in any further moves to break up my country. The UK has a proud democratic past and our freedoms are under threat from the European monolith. Time we exited from the EU and rebuilt our internal UK relationships. This message was last edited by tteedd on 02/05/2016. This message was last edited by tteedd on 02/05/2016. 2 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
02 May 2016 12:10 PM by Mickyfinn in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message Democracies do not go to war with one another. I have already listed on this thread all the wars between democracies. You can read them here. There are many. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_between_democracies *The EU has no way of keeping the peace. It started as a trading block and still has no way of forcing peace should war break out. The EU keeps the peace between its member states and aspiring member states by dialogue and shared mutual interests. The EU has a Foreign Minister and a European diplomatic programme. It is part of the EU Common Foreign and Security Policy. In practice the EDP is executed by the Member States’ Foreign Ministries, the EEAS, the Commission and the Council Secretariat. The programme has three general aims: help European diplomats create networks that foster a European identity in foreign policy; raise awareness among national diplomats with regard to the specifically European dimension of diplomacy; provide a teaching environment whose framework transcends the strictly national. The Balkans have provided substantial threats to post war Europe. Mostly now contained as Balkan democratic nationhood becomes establish because they seek membership of the EU. To meet EU criteria they have to stop fighting their neighbours and live in peace. The Greeks largely dislike the Germans because of history. They became members of the Eurozone by fraud and dislike being told by the EU to live within their means. Is not petty nationalisim behind the cause to leave the EU? You can still be pround of Britain and be part of the EU project. This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 02/05/2016.* _______________________ Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz. 0 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
02 May 2016 12:17 PM by Tadd1966 in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message tteed I think 49% of the Scottish voters would disagree with the one nation scenario and many others Will be interesting to see what happens if the Scots (Welsh or N Irish) vote differenlty to the English = more demand for indepedance and another vote I think will certainly happen I would also like to see the end of petty nationalism across the world and that can only happen with being together politicaly, economically and with equality and respect for all Many countries have a proud democractic history - the UK is NOT unique in this I am not proud to be of any nationality but would simply prefer to be a citizen of the world / human race and a global citizen who lives in the EU Being proud of being British or any nation is in itself petty nationalism _______________________ “The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge” 1 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
02 May 2016 1:00 PM by ads . 4124 posts Send private message Mickeyfinn apparently things might not be as simple as you suggest with the situation re Germany and Greece and the fraud you refer to. "The Greek debt crisis has saved the German government some €100bn (£70bn; $109bn) in lower borrowing costs because investors have sought safety in German bonds, a study has found. Even if Greece defaults on all its debt, Germany would still benefit, says the German IWH institute." _______________- "Greek debt crisis: Goldman Sachs could be sued for helping hide debts when it joined euro" Goldman Sachs faces the prospect of potential legal action from Greece over the complex financial deals in 2001 that many blame for its subsequent debt crisis. Greece managed to keep within the strict Maastricht rules for eurozone membership largely because of complex financial deals created by the investment bank which critics say disguised the extent of the country’s outstanding debts. ……….Under Ms Loudiadis’s guidance, Goldman swapped debt issued by Greece in dollars and yen for euros which were priced at a historical exchange rate that made the debt look smaller than it actually was. The swaps reportedly made about 2 per cent of Greece’s debt disappear from its national accounts. The size and structure of the deal enabled the bank to charge a far bigger fee than is usual in swap transactions, and Goldman persuaded Greece not to test the transaction with competitors to ensure it was getting good value for money. 1 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
02 May 2016 5:04 PM by Mickyfinn in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message Ads: I think that's more the law of unintended consequence in play. Or are you suggesting conspiracy? In a market economy there are always winners and losers. I have no sympathy with the current Greek position. They binged on EU cash, paid themselves what they could not sustain and generally abused the privilege of membership to the single market. Germany, the ECB and the EU has bent over backwards to help them. They always come back wanting more. I cannot understand why they are still in the Eurozone. _______________________ Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz. 0 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
03 May 2016 12:09 AM by MikeandHelen . 193 posts Send private message Tadd1966 Many countries have a proud democratic history - the UK is NOT unique in this I am not proud to be of any nationality but would simply prefer to be a citizen of the world / human race and a global citizen who lives in the EU Being proud of being British or any nation is in itself petty nationalism Interesting attitudes. Yes the UK does have a proud democratic history, which is often beaten up by by self interest groups who seek to change history or politicians with particular views like Ken Livingston. Unfortunately the way some people are presenting themselves on this forum is undemocratic and petty, and dismissing people that are proud to be British or of any nationality is petty and small minded, not the sort of attitude a 'citizen of the world' should have Yes I'm proud to be British and proud of the way that we remain the greatest democracy in the World, and the way we have embraced the changes that have given commonwealth countries their independence in the latter part of the last century. We have also given refuge to many genuine refugees and allowed persons to bring their families to the UK, including in arranged marriages. But we now have situations that prevent the UK from trading openly with the rest of World (via the world trade council) and for UK Citizens to have the freedom to marry persons from outside the EU without jumping through hoops to prove their relationship is genuine. The world has moved on significantly since the EEC was set up and the 1975 vote was for economic co-operation, not political union. And if you want to be a citizen of the world, continue living in your country of choice and respect the rights of self-determination of other nations. This message was last edited by MikeandHelen on 03/05/2016. 1 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
03 May 2016 8:59 AM by Mickyfinn in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message But we now have situations that prevent the UK from trading openly with the rest of World (via the world trade council) and for UK Citizens to have the freedom to marry persons from outside the EU without jumping through hoops to prove their relationship is genuine. Why is the UK prevented from trading openly with the rest of the world because of EU membership? Please explain. Is it not the UK itself that requires you to prove the relationship with a foreign bride is genuine? The UK put laws in place to prevent the trafficking of women from third world countries. _______________________ Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz. 0 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
03 May 2016 6:24 PM by Tadd1966 in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message A little off threadd but UK a great history of democracy - sorry but I do not thinks so Let’s think about the great UK democratic history Our forefathers (like so many other nations across the world) have a lot to answer for As far back as the crusades we invaded and conquered many countries causing much pain, torture, slavery, rape, pillage and murder. All in the name of God, King and country Did the people of the day get a democratic vote on this – NO Where they forced to join up and fight – probably The great British empire – again we attacked other nations, overthrew their leaders, forced many into slavery, raped, tortured, murdered and forced them into the “British” way of life, tradition and beliefs etc etc no respect for their way of life Was this voted for by the great British public – NO a few greedy prats at the top of the aristocracy with a lust for war and riches funded these wars for growth and self-interest, supported by the leaders (religious, self-appointed politicians, aristocracy etc.) of course in the name of God, King and country Did the masses get a say or they simply did what they were told and went to war Back at home the UK warred against each right across the nation with no democracy and only the strong and rich dictated the laws, taxes and how the rest lived – not voting by the masses Witches were burdened the stake, virgins sacrificed, the weak and infirm were tortured, ridiculed Women had a very low status in male dominated society, could not vote, be a vicar, or a politician or even take a professional job - doctor, lawyer, account etc. Children were abused Racism was rife Homosexual relationships were banned In WW1 & WW2 did Germany declare war on UK – NO the UK declared war on Germany some say with good reason but at the end of the day the UK did the declaration of war Some say Tony Blair continued this going to war business with Iraq – another debate that has been had many times. Democratic probably not I am sure there is a lot more to be said about the dark history of the UK and the UK has a very very very dark past with violence, war, slavery etc. One thing is true that a lot of these attitudes and misguided / brainwashed ideas that the UK is great are still falsely ingrained in our society. Not really a true indication of a great nation with a great traditions and history of democracy, equality, fair play is it So what is there actually to be proud of in the democratic history of the UK? – NOT A LOT A strong EU toghether will keep us all on the right path towards a better future (than any history) for all without suffering as long as stay together, repct. each other and ensure equality, a safe and good quality of life that every human being born deserves no matter where they are born _______________________ “The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge” 1 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
03 May 2016 7:21 PM by ads . 4124 posts Send private message In all of this analysis from both sides of the equation it focuses on a need to be tolerant, not divisive, to be sufficiently humble and be willing to learn from mistakes and reform, to be willing to look for best practice where regulatory constraints adequately counter corruption and fraud, to strive for civilised ethical moral authority transparency and accountability, to adhere to civilised rules of law, etc... Quite a tall order, no? 0 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
03 May 2016 9:38 PM by Mickyfinn in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message Well ads you are right. However your principles and aspirations have a stronger chance seeing the light of day under the scrutiny of many nations rather than just one. A single nation has a better opportunity to bury the bodies and sweep the evidence under the carpet. The British who want to leave the EU have no more idea of the consequences of that for future generations than astrologers who predict the personal futures of individuals they have never met from their own creative imagination. I'm sure come the 23 rd June the common sense of British people will prevail and the UK will remain an integral part of the European project for generations to come. I just cannot believe they will be led over the abyss by the likes of Nigel Farage and chums. The alternative is unthinkable. This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 03/05/2016. _______________________ Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz. 1 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
03 May 2016 9:53 PM by baz1946 . 2327 posts Send private message The British who want to leave the EU have no more idea of the consequences of that for future generations than astrologers who predict the personal futures of individuals they have never met from their own creative imagination. So to put it quite bluntly then Micky the people who want to leave know absolutely nothing...But the folk who want to stay know absolutely everything ...Isn't that being a little like an astrologer? Not forgetting those who want to leave have known the EU in the past...But those who want to stay don't know whats coming in the future with the EU. 0 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
04 May 2016 1:18 AM by ads . 4124 posts Send private message Did anyone see the interview with Ilnur Cevik, (the senior adviser to the Turkish President ) on BBC2 newsnight program tonight? He was highly critical of the European union's handling of the migrant crisis, suggesting "the EU was shutting it's eyes to the realities of the world ..., the EU has created a big mess in Syria, along with the Americans, and they should have known that by ruining and messing up in Syria, all these refugees would be leaving the country, because when I say this we should have stopped the fighting, Turkey ,the EU, the Americans, altogether and should have got rid of Assad, but we didn't. 3 million people, - Turkey has spent 10 billion dollars for them,. Now what has the EU done? Nothing. What kind of EU values are we talking of? The EU has failed badly." Does this imply that Turkey will now not adhere to the 72 conditions of the agreement in exchange for visa free travel to Europe ( including human rights issues) and in that case the migrant crisis to Greece will restart? Also earlier in the programme it was reviewing the rise of the Front National in France and the disillusionment of the French who are losing their jobs to Eastern Europeans. The inference being that a large number of French citizens want an EU referendum themselves. Is therefore the reality that the EU are not sufficiently listening to the rightful concerns of their citizens and in that "ignorance" they run the risk of failure? So my question is, rather than the UK being perceived as driving a wedge as they respond to these issues, isn't the reality that the EU itself is creating this wedge by failing to swiftly address some very real concerns by its EU citizens? This message was last edited by ads on 04/05/2016. 1 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
04 May 2016 8:04 AM by Mickyfinn in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message Baz. You twist my point to suit your purpose. You must be a politician☺ The astrology reference means the 'outs' will vote for something that they have no idea of the likely impact and future economic consequence for their nation. Remaining in the EU is more predicable. Economic stability. _______________________ Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz. 0 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
04 May 2016 9:30 AM by Hephaestus in The Peak District Na.... 1234 posts Send private message Micky, We've all read to predictions from the self confessed aficionados on all things that await the UK is we vote to leave the EU. The Pound will collapse - This is the 4th most tradable currency in the world. The UK stock market will collapse - It's survived many larger events than the result of a referendum since it's formation in 1801. There has only ever been two things that move markets and currency values, these are greed and fear, when fear hits people, financial institutions and nations sell, however when the price is right and greed replaces fear they buy, this is an indisputaple fact. _______________________ I'm Spartacus, well why not? 0 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

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