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The bus remains the only real porky then?
So I ask - do you give your net figure when quoting your salary? As explained ad nauseum (and recently by Ads) the bus was picked over so often in the campaign that nobody with any interest could have been ignorant of the exact situation.
By far the biggest two lies (and there were others) were:
'The economy will be destroyed.'
and 'pensions will have to be cut'.
Turkey.
Just before the campagin started David Cameron gave a speech in Turkey saying that Turkey belonged in the EU and he supported accelerating their application.
During the campagin the EU gave credence to early Turkish entry in thier negociations to reduce immigration.
You may take the view that Turkey was unlikely to join and less likely now, as you say, but it was hardly a lie at the time.
You are rather disgracefully using the murder of the Polish man as an argument. No one has a problem with hard working law abiding people from anywhere. But we are all entitled to believe that there are more than enough people in the UK. The man in Harlow was killed by feral youths who should have been dealt with a long time before. If it had not been the polish man it would have been someone else. Probably an elderly man who had the temerity to tell them to behave. But then no-one would have pinned the race hate lable on it. The main problem in Harlow is like in much of the rest of the UK we never see a bobby on the beat.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 02/09/2016.
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Neither Micky Finn or Roly live in the UK so why are they keeping on about BREXIT been a mistake,you are in the EU and you will for some years until it finally breaks up so make the most of it STOP WORRYING.
Let the UK get on with our withdawal please in a dignified manner, you can come back in 5 years and say we TOLD you so if it all goes horribly wrong.
Your debates have no validity because its far to ealy to call.
Please add your WEALTH of knowledge adding to other subjects on this FORUM
Love Hugh xx
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Done the Spain thing Happier in the UK
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It's a forum..It's called free speech..Nearly one of the reasons we wanted out.
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I work between the UK and Spain, and have a lot of property in the UK......
Not to mention all my family. And Hugh - if you read my posts, that is what I have been saying - it is too early to say it will benefit the UK or how much it will cost ( I stole those words from some expert or other....)
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And I have already said that I have concerns about immigration, but not really from Europeans, more from those who don't share our values and cutures, and this will increase as EU immigration declines (if it decliines at all). I personally think that the idea of removing in work benefits for EU workers a good one, and may well have been successful. In fact, I support the abolition of all in work benefits......but that is another argument.
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Roly
I really don't think the majority have a problem with immigration per se, as you say, many are hard working and share similar values but I do think many in Calais could easily be seeking asylum in France, don't you?
The whole point is that net immigration of over 300,000 per year is unsustainable for
Housing
Infrastructure
Schools and
Hospitals.
Spain still has net emigration due to shortage of jobs so of course feels we should continue with open borders.
Not a long term practical solution as the EU elite have already discovered with their promises to Turkey.
Freedom of movement to work may well be a sensible proposition but even German voters are starting to question their government's policies.
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Hi everyone! Have you missed me? Don't lie; I know you have.
still reading this thread but there has not been anything significant to comment on,
for those still fighting the referendum (on both sides), the vote was cast and the U.K. Is brexiting. So what does that actually mean. Well that is clear Brexit means Brexit. Actually as confusing as that is it means we will leave the EU. Nothing more nothing less. The government say they don't need parliaments approval to trigger the exit. Well don't ask me I don't know if they do or don't. But. They do need parliaments approval to enact any new laws or to have any new trade deals.
So what does post Brexit look like. Well none of us know yet because it has not happened. Things we do know. The pound is down due to lower interest rates and uncertainty. Housing market if flat because of change in buy to let stamp duty and uncertainty. Commodities are flat because of world economics, nothing to do with the U.K. Equity Market is steaming ahead because there is no other place to put your money that can offer the potential for a reasonable return. Nothing to do with actual company results. All in all I guess that qualifies as a leap into the unknown.
I am disappointed that the country remains divided. Remainers are fighting a referendum they have already lost. Leavers are celebrating a victory which is at the moment and could be for a very long time - hollow. Some advice to the winners. Unless you find a way to positively engage the losers (48%) of the country it will be a failure.
I am not sure our politicians are capable of that at this juncture. And I am not seeing any evidence on here of that capacity either.
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Me thinks I will continue posting just to annoy hughjardon............
The most post Brexit sensible idea I read on Bloomberg recently was the suggestion that the UK negotiate a special and separate free trade deal with the EU. Not membership of EFTA TTIP or WTO et al; just a simple free trade deal. I believe It is not impossible to get a majority among EU nations to agree that in principle. They and the UK would benefit from it.
The problem is within the EU governing council the central plank of free movement is written in stone. That's what any agreement stumbles and falls on. Quotas or work permits won’t cut it. If the EU abandons its core value they are done for.
If this fails and I suggest if it cannot gain any political traction the UK is faced with years and years of TTIP talks of its own even if the US is willing to start negotiations it will take five years at least. WTO talks are a legal stumble block because there are differing legal opinions over the UK’s current status. That legal wrangle will also be a marathon.
So ‘getting on with it’ and Brexit means Brexit are actually meaningless terms designed to keep the outers content. Unless of course you want the UK to cut itself loose from the global market place with the consequent enormous trade tariffs that will be imposed.
For Britain the EU was always and forever about free trade. Everything else annoyed everyone in the corridors of power. There is an old saying. 'Be careful what you wish for'
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 02/09/2016.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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The most post Brexit sensible idea I read recently was the suggestion that the UK negotiate a special and separate free trade deal with the EU. Not membership of EFTA TTIP or WTO et al; just a simple free trade deal. I believe It is not impossible to get a majority among EU nations to agree that in principle. They and the UK would benefit from it.
Welcome to the brotherhood!
But if you had been taking any notice you would have read it here first. Many times it has been said on this thread that the EU has more economic interest in a free trade deal than we do, so it should be acheivable.
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I'm trying to be pragmatic. I accept the UK is gving up it's influence in the political life of Europe. I'm trying to find a 'silver linings playbook' or as WC Fields said as he was dying and reading a bible for the first time. "I'm looking for a loophole"
The fact is however the benefits of free trade carry a price. It's that price everything comes down to in the end and Mrs May knows it. When I say price I mean what the EU/UK can get away with politically. Not what all nations involved actually need.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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These are the countries the EU already has trade agreements with as well as all the WTO countries, which are not too difficult given that generally tariffs are low these days, as no one wants to miss out.
As has been quoted on many occasions the EU sells more to the UK than other way around.
Why in the 21st century a time of globalisation do you suppose the EU would risk selling its products here, when some could be purchased cheaper elsewhere.
Why also do we have to be member of a "Club" and make large contributions to be a member to carry out trade with the world..
Do not believe all the hype about Euro Trade deals they are hype as long as your product complies with regulations set.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_free_trade_agreements
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One aspect which is far more toubling re Turkey is that they are currently providing temp accommodation to 2.5 million Syrians across 10 provinces, and as far as I can ascertain Europe is also assisting in that cause. I presume this is where British humanitarian funding is currently being targeted with regard to the Syrian crisis?
But also this formed part of the deal with Europe when confirming Turkey's agreement to do more to prevent the traffic smuggling across the Med from their shores......now if Turkey feel threatened by the EU reneging on their side of the "deal" to speed up visa-free access to Europe (which I think was supposed to be October this year?) then they have already threatened to "pull the plug" on this deal, and we will be back to not only asylum seekers and economic migrants coming via Libya but also Turkey once again acting as passage which will further exacerbate the traffic smuggling scenario across the Med and subsequent threat to lives.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/01/turkey-threatens-to-tear-up-eu-migrant-deal-unless-it-gets-visa/
MEPs recently voted ( July) to bring back border controls in the autumn ......quite ironic since a year ago Theresa May when home secretary called for an emergency meeting of EU leaders to discuss the growing crisis.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa/article-3216705/EU-calls-emergency-meeting-European-leaders-migration-crisis.html
But alongside this it is important to understand that Turkey is one of the most generous re humanitarian aid and resettlement providers in the world.
http://whsturkey.org/turkey-and-the-summit/turkish-humanitarian-policy
But then we have the Turkish human rights issues and concerns which the EU are now suggesting are linked to the "deal"…implying these are non negotiable. Turkey on the other hand appear to be imp!ying that visa-free travel agreements (as opposed to full accession) was never dependent on resolving outstanding human rights issues, especially since Erdogan has clamped down on rights since the recent military coup attempt.
This scenario is therefore highly complex and full of contradictions, but necessary nevertheless for us all to remain aware of the wider perspective.
This message was last edited by ads on 02/09/2016.
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There are also certain media sources who believe strongly that President Erdogan's son has in the past been complicit in aiding the illegal export of oil controlled by IS through Turkey, providing funding to an organisation that Turkey says they are helping defeat.
I wonder if their weapons are pointed more at the Kurds, who have been helping to fight IS rather than attacking IS itself.
Any EU deal with Turkey could be exceedingly dangerous for the West as could them allowing free passage of refugees.
A situation the EU are not dealing well with.
Funding for refugees in Turkey is still not getting through, promised schools for the refugee children have still not been built.
Just where will the millions of Turks seeking work and even more refugees from Syria and Africa fleeing from radicalisation or dictatorial regimes end up?
Perhaps it is time to consider temporarily suspending free movement of people and concentrate aid and help where it is most needed.
The problem still lies with the fact the so called wealthy West the USA, Europe and of course Russia can't agree on ways forward to make better for people to build better lives in their home countries.
Not a direct correlation to Brexit, I know but perhaps someone has to take a lead yet again in looking for the right solutions.
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pragmatic
It was suggested on Newsnight the other night that the EU will have a funding gap and rather than try and penalise us would accept a sliding reduction in payment for a free trade deal (they said single market without free movement but it is essentially the same thing).
I'm sure hard line Brexiters might say 'why should we pay for nothing', but pragmacy could rule the day.
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The political neo-nationalism that influenced the UK Brexit vote and is sweeping western societies, including the USA has reached Germany.
Angla Merkle has suffered a sobering defeat in regional elections in her constituency of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, with her Christian Democratic Union (CDU) coming third behind the Social Democrats (SPD) and the rightwing populists Alternative für Deutschland (AfD).Projections late on Sunday night saw the centre-left SPD on 30.5%, the anti-immigration AfD on 20.9%, and the chancellor’s centre-right CDU suffering its all-time lowest result in the eastern state, on 19%. Earlier this year, the CDU had looked like the party most likely to be tasked with forming the next government in the state.
For the past 10 years, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern has been governed in a “grand coalition” between the SPD and CDU, mirroring the current power structure at federal level. But an increasingly divisive debate over the consequences of the German government’s strategy during the refugee crisis has spurred support forAfD – fronted in the state by Leif-Erik Holm, a radio presenter based in Berlin’s multicultural Prenzlauer Berg district – even though the state has been largely insulated from the refugee crisis.
Though the result will not have a direct impact on the workings of the German government, and Mecklenburg-Vorpommern only has a population of 1.6 million, it has a symbolic value, with regional elections in Berlin on 18 September and a general election coming up next year. Merkel, in power since 2005, has yet to confirm whether she will run for a fourth term in 2017.
The Guardian 5 Sept 2016.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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It looks like a points based immigration system is dead in the water. This will anger some BREXIT Voters I guess, but as none of us can pick and choose what points we want going forward that means "it is as it is". As the government claims they are committed to getting immigration down it strikes me that it leaves only a quota system;
x number of unskilled worker (to fill the thousands of seasonal fruit picking jobs). Presumably this will be leave to remain for six months or less like the old agrucultural workers system.
x number of skilled workers (to accomodate muti-national companies that want to transfer staff around) and for the NHS and football.
x number of student placements. The UK generates good income from this group of people but there are also issues with non-genuine students.
and y number of refugees. I understand that we have no control over this and will have less in the future as once we BREXIT we will no longer be able to return them to the first EU country they arrived in. Basically I understand that once they get to the UK and claim asylum we are their hosts until we can reach a decision to send them back to their home country if they do not meet our 'Refugee' status hurdles.
Gosh, this is going to be one very long process
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Thanks for that johnzx, but my point lies with the term:
It was, recognized though, that asylum should not be refused solely on the grounds that it could have been sought elsewhere.
Can we enforce that UNHCR COP or is it just a COP?
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well everybody shouting doom on brexit well ,If thats true we would have lost every war we ever entered and would no longer be GB. A country that produces so many gold medalist have not got the know how to make as traders in this world , So chins up and let go get get our share of world trade instead of watching the pound drop and cry.
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im am ex army single 57,and have come to spain to live,i studied spanash...
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So how come Germany lost the last two wars but there is still a Germany?
Are the gold medallists going to do the negotiating for us?
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