Rough justice yet again!

Sorry but I cannot stay out of this because it refers back to my very first original post way back when. The Spanish have been led by the influx of Brits. There was a mass of cheap land British agents (largely) found a system that was still comparatively in the dark ages – remember that until 74 this was a dictatorship and considered a third world country in almost every respect. The system of Notary was a system and still is a system that has worked for 100s of years in Spain for the Spanish – and for everyone else that wished to buy here. The estate agent for the Spanish is largely speaking a mystery. They know that if an agent is involved it pushes up the price. Hence so many handwritten “For sale” signs on walls of properties. If an agent is not involved the property should be cheaper. If there is a property buyers guide for the Spanish I suspect there would not be many buyers. They rely on advice and information from their parents, uncles brothers sisters – experience that has been gained over decades and as things have changed (you have no idea how difficult it is to persuade a Spaniard that it is a bad idea as a purchaser to pay Black Money and the potential problems they will bring on themselves – this is because of tradition).

I don’t think Gillespie has waited deliberately to impart this information. Those lucky enough to use his services (and others like him) would have been advised of it during the sales process. We certainly recommened everything done before Notary in conjunction with their lawyer - unfortunately we were only lucky enough to speak to most after deposits paid and contracts signed. Those we got to beforehand did it our suggested way in the main.

I know from personal experience how hard it can be to influence someone’s thinking in the interests of best advice (sorry but as Norman says I am a “know it all”), once the dream has been sewn. In Spring 2006 we were approached by a young lady from London for mortgage advice. She had been declined by La Caixa for a loan of 175,000€ construction finance for a house valued at completion of 275,000€ and they had agreed to advance 80,000€ only. In essence as long as she fitted criteria which she did, this should not have been a problem. When I told her that, she said she would e mail me a file of documents relating to what she wished to do as it was too complicated over the phone. Transpired the reason for the decline by La Caixa had nothing to do with her personal situation. It was based on the fact that all the Licences related to construction of an industrial unit – thus four walls and a roof and for industrial use only. She in fact knew all this – but because it was being promoted by a developer (UK origins) and had the backing of a “prestigious Marbella law firm” she KNEW it would be ok. The lawyer in fact covered his own arse by stating in the contract she had signed – I cannot quote as my memory is not that good but he had told her that there was a SLIGHT risk as it was in fact against the law to build a house where only a unit was licenced – but as long as it stood for four years then there would be nothing the authorities could do about it – she would have to pay a minor fine to the authorities and it would be legalised retrospectively. But don’t worry about it, it’s the way things are done in Spain!

My advice to her was to go nowhere near it – her argument to me was how could it be dodgy with the developer and the lawyer involved and that it was a great way to make money and help her get on the ladder in Spain. Her final words “If you can’t help me can you direct me to someone in Spain that can help me get the money – or do you think I could release more equity on my house in the UK to do this”.   

While I am aware (at least I think I am) that nobody on this thread was enticed to do anything remotely similar, the point I am trying to make is that there were a great many people out there offering advice that was independent, but unfortunately we were in the minority and on many occasions it was unwelcome. We weren’t the ones with almost limitless budgets to counter the likes of OVP, Ocean, Viva, Interealty, Palmera, et al so other than word of mouth plus the occasional newspaper article when one could persuade them to print it, it was difficult to get our message across. But even when we did find a soul that we could save, so rarely did they want to listen – perhaps they thought we were interfering know it alls as well.

Final point on this – when I asked her if she would take a risk like this in the UK her immediate response was that she wouldn’t be able to do it – my reply was what makes you think it’s a risk worth taking here if a bank isn’t willing to risk their money.

I emphasize that I do not detract from those that have been harshly treated by the system (including you Norman). You all put your faith in the legal system and supposed professionals that alleged they were there to look after you. But when all is said and done many many people married in faith and are having to repent at leisure.The Spanish real estate market is a sadder and wiser place for it and I hope that all of you are recompensed your losses, whether by Spain itself or EU intervention. I rather suspect that Spain will either toe the line or elect to leave – I suspect it may be the latter because most of traditonal Spain questions the projected longevity of the EU anyway as they have only seen raging inflation since opening their borders to the rest of Europe. I am not talking about the professionals but the man in the street. Let us not forget that the Catalans believe they are not Spanish anyway, so this is already a country with divisions within its own borders.  Their stronger trade links lie outside the European zone and have done for some time and while maybe sad the Spanish have a philosophical attitude (rightly or wrongly) that they existed before them, they will exist after them.

Agree with you Chimps that its wrong wrong wrong as is any injustice, but Spain is slow to adjust to anything. God knows the smoking ban is still not enforced. This introduction of a system that was almost alien to them (off plan development) by an overseas clan has meant they have been trying to keep up with changes not of their making.

I wil try and stay an impartial observer and not rise to any bait.

Gillespie, I also said "in my mind if you read books on the buying process and check internet sites etc it would be natural assume the information obtained is accurate". The point is people did research and if everything they researched said you must have a lawyer (to protect your interests) how in the hell are they supposed to know this wasn't the case? If you think I am being stupid perhaps you will answer the question I posed.

Regards, Poppyseed

Dear All,

gob-smacked to begin with!

but superb information, thank you Gillespie, so that is what Justin meant when he said he did not use a lawyer because he spoke the language, or did he not use the notary either???

dare I ask, how do I find out whether my criminal lawyer followed the right procedure?

if he attended in my place and everything was produced in front of the notary, he must have known that no facilities were to be provided, no planning permission was in place and no land was owned for them, they were not on the drawings, not being built, but the extra blocks and less pools were......etc. etc.

In fact if the swine accepted all these omissions plus the many others in front of the notary, what chance do I have of claiming back my deposit now, having not completed because of those very omissions????????

can I also ask whether the notary also checks that finance is in place at that time??

Thanks again, great posts , great information, if only!!!!!

Regards

Norman

Sorry Poppyseed but posted my Tome before i had read yours. While I have a family connection with Spain dating back to the early 50s - first my grandparents bought in Tenerife and then Torremolinos and I spent a lot of time here as a kid my grandparents moved back to the UK in 1974 to live out their days. Since then I havent had a great deal of involvement with Spain until the back end of the 90s so I was a comparative virgin like the rest. The one thing I guess I did have up my sleeve was that I knew the laws of the right way, wrong way and Spanish way and a vague recollection of some problems repatriating money from the sale of their house but this was during the era of exchange control. The one thing I did know was that it would be very different to accepted procedures in England simply because every country has different procedures and different laws. So I did my best to find out anything I could, to speak to Spaniards at every opportunity and sure I made some mistakes but at first meeting with someone talking to me about off plan it was clear to me they wanted to control me every step of the way - that sounded alarm bells as I thought I should be the one in control. This led me to talk to people in bars, restuarants etc and I came back again and approached things from a completely different angle and received an intro to a lawyer - not from an estate agent or developer - this lawyer explained the system to me - he did not charge me for it (except for the lunch which I willingly paid). I guess if he or I had had the money to establish it, we could have started seminars about "The right way to do things in Spain" we would have had to charge admission fees for it as we would not have been supported by real estate comms. I wonder how many people would have been willing to pay? The thing is that the seminar would have been over so quickly that people would not have thought they had value for money. Pre internet the information was out there - not on sites like this but for people with time and patience and desire to learn and a willingness to ask a few questions of the right people it was there.

Now I stay out (fingers crossed)

Norman, Justin would have had to appear at Notary - any financial transaction that is concluded in Spain has to take place at Notary. It is possible though to sign a Private Purchase Contract (Compraventa) without appearing before the Notary. The final payment of any monies and the Transfer of Title would have to take place at Notary. If your lawyer signed the PPC on your behalf then it would be highly unlikely this would have taken place before the Notary unless at your specific request.

If you asked for original contract signing to take place at Notary then he would have been aware of any financial arrangements (and he would have copies and records of all documents archived). But advance sight of any of this information would only have been apparent had your original contract when paying deposits had been signed at Notary.

I am assuming that you have not completed on a purchase???

Not sure that answers your question but I hope so.

"Gillespie, I also said "in my mind if you read books on the buying process and check internet sites etc it would be natural assume the information obtained is accurate".

Many people do assume that poppyseed. That still doesn´t mean it will be. Like norman has often said here, do not believe the glossy builders brochures any more than you would in the UK.

It's very common to all books and websites to recommend "getting a good lawyer" - So how do you know if you have a good lawyer? What checks did people make?

At the very beginning of the boom there very few lawyers in any one town. By 2006 they were almost as common as estate agents. Most were fresh out of law school. Normally they would have studied law but found no work as a lawyer so they would have gone to work in banks, notaries offices or for some kind of private company.

But when the boom happened, they were able to open up on the high street and charge €2000 a time for conveyancing. They had no experience of buying a house for themselves they were so wet behind the ears.

The evidence is there to see, as just as the estate agents close down, so do the legal offices. Most of the lawyers that are left are the ones who never really got into conveyancing, the older traditional law firms are still doing what they always did, criminal law, a fair amount of wife beating cases and a bit of corporate law.

The books that were printed were written by British authors, so consequently they will tell you how to do it the British way in Spain. But it isn`t/wasn`t the Spanish way.

We all read many books on various subjects, but more often than not, I disagree with the authors opinion, not because I have a greater knowledge than they, but because it just doesn´t ring true with me, call it life experience or whatever.

Gordon Brown is far more highly trained than me in economics and politics but I still don't beleive a word he says. The same goes for authors of Spanish property books, they no doubt made more money writing about it than I did actually selling it.

Simply put, its better to make several independent visits to the are, chat to locals, both British but especially Spanish then if you ask the right questions, they will tell you the way it is.

It's often understated here, but a decent understanding of the language goees a very long way.

Buying a property or a business in a country where you don't understand any of the language is number 1 on my list of things not to do.

Some may say, well we didn't intend to live in it, that doesn't matter. You are still going to have to go through the purchase and legal process aren't you? So you then become dependent on other people which is why it all goes wrong.

As the saying goes "if you put yourself in the hands of people who could let you down, you must expect, from time to time, to be let down."

Disagree marginally Ken - while the Notarial procedure is by far the most important step  if I didnt live here I would be inclined to have a lawyer as well. We are talking regional differences and I concur that most in your neck of the woods have sprung up over night (many of them extensions of companies here). Many long establsihed conveyancing practices here - that doesnt necessarily make them any good though. Nonetheless, for most people that dont live here it will be impractical for them to use any other method - most of them I agree are mere pen pushers (but as mentioned before there are good ones around that are willing to go the extra mile).

Without doubt for the job description they make a great deal of money. I guess thats why they have pillars of chrome and glass and the rest of us labour in our bland and non descript offices - thankfully air conditioned.

Oh and by the way Terry Wogan has more financial qualifications than Gordon Brown so I suspect you are better qualified to run the UK economy than either of them.

Agreed smiley, you are far more cosmopolitan in your neck of the woods.

I generalised a little to far there

As a slight aside, any chance of borrowing a 500 quid deposit to contest Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath.

 I dont think you need that much do you???

This is certainly a hot thread!

Norman did look at the glossy brochures and by the look of it paid a deposit

Off plan ! Going straight through a notary in the country with a different language ? Not for me and would want to ensure I did it in the way almost every one says is right.way  Use an English speaking Lawyer. Make sure you find a good one .MMmmm now why again do I feel that this is where the problem starts.

Dont know enough about the laws buying property in the U.K without trying give that a try.

That way if it went wrong you would have the solicitor and the law of the land thats there to protect .If its abused or corrupted you would be a little more comfortable to know that laws of whats right or wrong should be similar in the Europe. I would and so would most consider the safest and right way to stay within the law. That way no one can come along 5 years later and pull your property down ?  We now know they can !! We now know what a corrupt little I am all right Jack attitude some have and thats why the great con will continue

Agree Smiley. Things take a lot longer to happen in Spain. Tell them that no one will ever buy again in Spain till this lot is sorted .Then lets see how long it would take.

 Sorry Chimps, I have to disagree with your statement people will stay away and not buy. There are buyers out there, Spanish, British and other nationalities.

And no, Im not trying to talk the market up, just saying it as it is. They know about the problems here and potential pitfalls, but still want their place in the sun.

Most are for second homes but some are looking at longer term investment.

It is criminal what has happened to some people and the law is very slow here. I dont think I know anyone living here who hasnt been caught somewhere with a crooked deal of some kind or another!

Hello Rixxy

Think you may have mis read what I was saying.

I was replying to the statement that everything in Spain is slow including legal reform.My answer was to tell them that no one should buy until they get this corruption sorted they just may move along alot quicker. Until then people may still get caught.

I have property and love Spain to bits. Really great to see any return to the market at all levels  .Lets hope that situations like Goodstich44 is not some other poor soul in the next 5 years.

Yep and I do feel that the investment will be good but its going to take a shake first maybe.

I will post as many positives as I can. This one issue however about the abuse of the law is one that I just cant.

 Ahh, yes it is excrutiatingly slow. Bad enough when its normal time but holiday which seem to be all the time add to it!

They are trying to change the system and now there is arbitration for tenant/landlord disputes and something similar to a small claims court but its still not easy

Also you have to have a lawyer for nearly everything - it costs a min 2k to arrange a divorce, and thats when its an agreed separation!

Its slow in other countries too - I have a court case going on in Ireland which is now in its 4th year and STILL trailing on!

Hey ho!!

"Off plan ! Going straight through a notary in the country with a different language ? Not for me and would want to ensure I did it in the way almost every one says is right.way  Use an English speaking Lawyer. "

Like I said, its like banging your head against a brick wall!

Gillespie

As they say. Its easy when you know how. Perhaps you didnt take note .My comments started regarding "Off Plan"

Most of us would have seen cases like the Priors and assume that they cut corners and went straight to the Notary.

We would say. We are going to do it the right way and appoint a solictor to check everything for us. Contracts deeds land etc all written in Spanish ( dont tell me you speak fluent Spanish) Some wouldnt talk to the locals down the Pub believe it or not.

Tell me Mr or Mrs Gillespie. Before you say its like banging your head against a brick wall

How the hell are like likes of me Goodstich44/Norman etc not to know the notary is also the make.

Oh I know. Do your research . 

So far Europe cannot agree on what size tomatoes will be - how the hell are they going to agree on legal property procedures. If you buy in Dubai you follow the expected laws and procedures there, same in Bulgaria and everywhere else in the world. Quite why Spain would be singled out to be uniform with the UK I dont know.

I had droves of UK IFAs here in 2006 telling me how Spanish property was going to be permitted into UK SIPPS (pension plans) and would have the same tax break status as incorporating a UK property into a SIPP. Why so I asked - because Gordon Brown has decided thus they replied as one. My reply was to get trhem to tell it to Hacienda (tax office) because until Hacienda agreed its ok and publishes that it is agreed then it wont matter what Gordon says - strangely enough Hacienda didnt change any tax status on allowing Spanish properties to be incorporated into a UK SIPP. Not quite sure I know why but perhaps its because they make their own tax laws in Spain.

This is a country where you are not obliged nor ever have been to be qualified to practice or act in a legal capacity. It is published in books. Unless you are a qualified Abogado then you cannot be a member of the Colleges of Lawyers (akin to the Law Society - toothless wonder that it is). If you are a Notary then they are akin to a lawyer acting for the government - their training is much more intense and thorough. You can only be a Notary in Spain by a government appointment. They are the wealthiest group of people within Spain as they are the medium between the people and the govt. While not all of them are beyond stretching the interpretation of the law (come on at the end of the day they are lawyers) they are by far and without doubt the most reliable legal professionals to act in confirming any form of contract. As Gillespie rightly says - if reservation and PPCs had been signed in front of the Notary then there would be far less contributors to this forum.

Hi Smiley

As with most of us. "Its all good in hindsight."   No solicitors.? Sounds fantastic to me.

This overcomes everything and solves my biggest hate. Corrupt solicitors.

I dont think most thought that buying in Spain think its like buying in the U.K. That s why they did their best and went to get advice and legal help.

Your 100% right again regarding what Brits expect and the rest in your posting. Sadly for the likes of Goodstich44 and Norman its little use telling them that their mistake was to trust a legal profession

Sorry to alter again. A Notary is a Lawyer acting on behalf of The Spanish Government > Think Its time for a drink.
 

This message was last edited by Chimps on 12/08/2009.

This message was last edited by Chimps on 12/08/2009.

Dear All,

sorry to be wrapped up in my own situation but I am somewhat entranced by the information recently posted, thank you everyone.

I am of course an absolute convert to the Notary system, Maggie thought she had done us a favour when she introduced a bit of competition into the conveyancing closed shop, but the Notary system blows me away. That's for me, that's for the common man, and I am nothing if not that.

The question is if the Spanish system is that simple and straightforward, how come Justin still managed to get shafted by his developer????

The next question is, if the crook representing me did not appear before the notary, what is my position now with the system, I certainly did not authorise any shortcut or variation in the system, absolutely not, I thought I was paying for the full service and absolutely nothing less. This is my life-savings we are talking about not Smiley's bit of bunce speculation to increase his millions.

I only authorised the purchase of the whole, absolutely nothing less, not a single square millimetre less than the full spacious absolute highest luxury closed, holiday apartment complex, not a single human hair less then the front line luxury golf complex my E425,000 was buying.

Smiley, thank you for your belated interest but, yes, stupid and senile I may be, but as someone concerned about his family, there was no way I was prepared to accept the con once realised, irrespective of the market, which in itself may have done me something of a favour, had I of course a second dose of life-savings, or if I ever get back the original.

Smiley, may I say that your latest postings are more reasonable since Gillespie intervened, for what that is worth from a senile 70+ year old poster.

Thank you everyone,

Regards

Norman

May I ask if the notary is responsible for checking that legal Bank Guarantees are in place from the outset with offplan purchases (i.e. recognised in Spain), and would he/she be responsible for ensuring that the Banks or Insurance companies return monies when required to do so? Also would the notary have had any impact on the speed at which the courts handled breach of contract cases, appeals, enforcement orders and the like?

Dear ads:

Some answers to your questions, below in bold green ( same text as your message):

May I ask if the notary is responsible for checking that legal Bank Guarantees are in place from the outset with offplan purchases ( no, he is not)  (i.e. recognised in Spain), and would he/she be responsible for ensuring that the Banks or Insurance companies return monies when required to do so? No, he would not. Also would the notary have had any impact on the speed at which the courts handled breach of contract cases, appeals, enforcement orders and the like?  No, they would not have

The role of the Notary in an off plan purchase is to verify legalities at the moment of the signing of title deed ( Nuilding deffects insurances, first Occupation license, money laundering legal requirements, sufficiency of POA....), He doe snot intervene either in the initial part ( private purchase) of the conveyancing process or the judicial part if arising.