Rough justice yet again!

Hi Faro - Altho the PGOU has now been approved, the LFO's are still not issued.  As far as my lawyer is concerned, my claim to the bank was lodged a long time ago, so even if the LFO's were to be issued now, my claim still stands as it was initiated whilst the guarantee was valid.

Tish, the broadcast is no longer available on iplayer but you can find it on the UKIP website. Go to MULTIMEDIA - VIDEOS - STOP FUNDING CORRUPT SPANISH REGIONS.  The EOS site will not allow me to post the link - apparently my account has not been approved.  

Marta Andreasesn is asking for anyone effected by Spanish Property abuse to contact her.  Her contact details are also on the website. 

Many MEP's will not  'rock the boat' in EU parliament because they are sworn to loyalty and who would want to jeopardise a subsistence allowance of 300 euro per day.  You are probably also aware that Zapatero was elected President of Europe in January, but only for a 6 month trial period.  This term is about to expire, which is why Marta Andreasen  is particularly active at the moment.

It may be up until now Mike has been fighting the developer for return of his deposit and that that action is now before the constitutional courts which if that is the case is a farce?

Mike would you clarify who you have been fighting ie developer or bank or both etc.

Just looked at Marta Andersons "war on Zapetero" 

Zapetero states:

My country is based on the rule of law, and we have courts which enforce the law."

M:arta states

 "Mr Zapatero talked about the law and the courts, but the dogs in the street know that Spain has the most highly politicised judiciary in Europe

Speaking afterwards outside the Plenary, Mrs Andreasen joked that she might get phonecalls from Robert Mugabe complaining about likening him to the Spanish Prime Minister. 

."

Faro - Our case has always been against the bank for their refusal to honour the guarantee.  Initially we won in the 1st instance court and the bank were ordered to pay. The bank appealed on a small  technicality and the same court (same judge) reversed the decision and told the bank not to pay.

We then appealed to high court and lost. The hearing was a shambles - they invented a witness who was never at the hearing and included a long statement from him in the resolution.  When we questioned this item, the court admitted an error and dropped the court fee (just for this hearing) but refused to re-hear the case.

We then appealed to Supreme court who refused to hear the case.  We now have an appeal in Constitutional court, which is more of a human rights appeal about the way we have been treated by the courts.  I believe our chances of success in Constitutional court are very slim and even if we succeed it will ony gain us a re-hearing of the case going right back to the 1st instance court.

This action has taken 4 years so far and has cost 10,000 euro and we are no further than when we started. 

Unless you go through every court in Spain, including Constitutional, you cannot get a case into European court. 

Mike

That pretty much summarises the so called Spanish legal system and the shamble it's known to be the world over.

Your costs are less than I thought considering the number of times you have been before the courts.

I have heard of others going to the constitutional courts but never heard they got on or even if they had their case heard etc because I lost track of their story. I also thought it was a bit of  along shot and I would also have thought somewhat outside the remit of a constitutional court. Unless Spanish constitutional courts are different to my understanding of the type of case argued.

Would you or could you take this case to a European Court?

I wish you all the best!

Just looked at Marta Andersons "war on Zapetero" 

Zapetero states:

My country is based on the rule of law, and we have courts which enforce the law."

Does anyone actually take this guy seriously anymore?  It's a shame we're stuck with this clown for another 2 years.

Faro

A European court?, there's food for thought. With so much evidence that Spain's justice system is little more than a corrupt sham, you would hope that cases heard in a European court would include enough honest judges in the ranks to sentence in favour of those clearly in the right?.  Perhaps that is something we should try and move towards, rather than hopelessly trying to get justice in Spain, which at best is a lottery.

Even if you win your case, unnaceptable delays, stupid appeals etc, are far too common to be coincidence, and make the whole exercise a waste of time and money. When the hell will the EU recognise this and take action to back the victims and not the crooks??

Hopefully people will vote with their feet to the polling station in 2 years time. Who's to say the next person will be any better though. They can only vote for the candidates who present themselves ?

My husband doesn't trust Cameron but voted for him because he wanted Labour out and Cons in.

Goodstich, as Mike pointed out, you have to go through the whole system to get to the Courts of Human rights/European Courts. Not many get there.

If the justice system in Spain is politicised to this degree as has been suggested here, what do you suggest Maria?

How can clients be sure that their valid cases are not going to be ultimately compromised as has happened to Mike?

It appears that even with a strong case that injustices of this nature ARE being compromised.

What is the way forward, other than to seek out a no win no fee solution and alongside this ensure that the EU are not only mindful but proactive in their efforts to make the Spanish government accountable?

This message was last edited by ads on 08/07/2010.

I'm also interested in Mikes's comment "human rights appeal about the way we have been treated by the courts "

well would significant and consistent court delays compromising clients fall under that remit also?

Tish

yes, that what needs changing I feel, which was what I meant by moving towards that option. It's clear that the appeal system seldom works in favour of the victim . By the time your case has been passed through various Spanish courts, can you really be confident of a fair result?. I very much doubt it from the evidence we have seen. The court delays, the mystery witness as in Mike's case, the stupid excuses from the banks for not paying out on BG's etc etc? . I just don't feel that Spain's idea of justice is acceptable, and cases must be heard in another court if the majority of  victims are to stand a chance of real justice?  Heaven knows how that change could be brought about?, but I feel many are just going up a blind alley trying to get justice in the Spanish courts.

I understand frustration of some people, they have full and total  reasons but, to honour what I consider it is true, I also need to add, also to your comfort,  that I am witness of Justice being administered to many people in  Spain on a daily basis.

I do honestly think that there is no reasons to doubt on the soundness of the legal/judicial system in Spain, even when, it is true that some situations are crazy. This happen in every country.

Law needs to de developed and we are open to criticism and improvement, but in the meantime, please do not believe this is a lawless territory.

Best wishes to you all,

MAria

A "mob" demonstration at ALL of the Courts in Marbella & Malaga.!!

It would take a lot of people, but if every single person affected by any sort of corruption & malpractice were to be there, then judging by the forums, it would be possible.

Maria, you wrote:  I do honestly think that there is no reasons to doubt on the soundness of the legal/judicial system in Spain, even when, it is true that some situations are crazy. This happen in every country.

I can assure you that it would not and does not happen on this scale in the UK. That's what makes it sooo frustrating for us. Also corrupt lawyers would be kicked out of their profession by the Law society. We have no win, no fee cases and also Legal aid for those not able to pay for expensive law suits.

maria

well I got 'justice' in the form of a court win, but it's not justice is it, if a two year court delay means the developer goes bust  20 months after the court accepted the case. The excuse was that the courts were to busy to hear my case in a time frame where my court embargo could have been used or the money the court awarded me granted. 

So who pays for the court delay with their life savings........me of course! .   I call that lawless!

Wow, this thread makes depressing reading today!!

I understand 100% the frustrations of all those who believe they have been badly treated by the Spanish Justice system.

Please understand that I am in no way defending the Spanish Justice system or the corrupt developers, negligent Banks, Lawyers etc.....but I think it is true what Maria says - that she is witnessing fair Justice on a daily basis to many people.

The problem is - once somebody receives justice, gets a refund and is happy - we very rarely get to hear about it.  What we do hear about and I understand exactly the reasons why, are the unfair cases and cases of unbelievable corruption.

Ads - no win no fee is OK - but if you lose the case although you do not have to pay your own Lawyer, you may be responsible for the hefty legal fees of the 'victorious' party!!  Knowing the Banks, developers etc I am sure having won the case they would present highly inflated legal fees to the court for which the losing party may be responsible.

So 'no win no fee' may only go half of the way to making the legal action a 'safe bet'.........

Kind regards

Keith

Tish

I could not agree more with you.

The Spanish legal system is a hopeless shambles, it is slow and overly procedural, and as Goocstich said any decision is like a lottery. It's incredibly expensive with lawyer and procurator costs.

In my opinion the lawyers created many of the problems in the first place with badly drafted contracts which can only then be resolved through expensive litigation.

It takes months for a decision to be handed down on a simple case - just what do the judges do?

The courts are all backlogged.

I believe there are no interim charging orders so whilst tring to place a charge assets are moved and so on.........

A bank or insurance guarantee should do exactly what its intended purpose was without litigation and so on....

Keith,  if a Court  judges a Lawyers fee too high they will not accept them, as happened with our case against Banco Popular. A re-adjustment was accepted. And...Rough Justice IS depressing!

According to one Lawyer on this thread some people DO win cases. Did they get their money back though? That's a whole different story!

http://www.eyeonspain.com/community-forum/21068/5-bank-guarantees-from-caja-granada-successfully-executed.aspx