Rough justice yet again!

Dear P,

it seems that after many hundreds of words you concede that perhaps at least some of us are "genuine" and not all tatooed hapless idiots, though it seems I have more to do before I escape that qualification.

Nevertheless I must congratulate you on encouraging some great informative posts from others, well done.

As to  'load opf crap!!!!'.

I cannot recall such a comment, but I do believe in calling a spade a spade, unfortunately I am at an age where the norm is for people to begin losing it to some extent. Perhaps you could identify?

The UK planning law bit is interesting to me.

If a developer put in an application with a false land certificate claiming to own an adjacent neighbours land as his own and then obtained permission. What is the legal position, could that permission be challenged by the neighbour?

We may even have some common ground, which just goes to show how valuable the forum is, don't you think?

Thank you all for some great posts and thank you Justin for making it possible.

Regards

Norman

Norman.....if you had bothered to read you would have observed that in my very first post I said that there were very many innocent victims of fraud and deception. As for your intemperate comments: the first day it's too overcast to sunbathe I will go through every post you have made on the two threads I've been posting on and I'll make a compilation of remarks you made which, when you see them in one place, I'm sure you'll regret. I take it that you are either unwilling or unable to trawl through my posts to substantiate your inaccurate accusations.  That speaks for itself.

Ads....yes, I agree. The Spanish justice system is slow, lacks transparency and from the little I have read, true accountability. I am also amazed at the way in which administrators of bankrupt companies have evaded their responsibilities by creating strange new classes of 'creditors'....in the Aifos case the people who had lost deposits were described as 'contingent creditors'. The theory behind that seems to be that they still had the possibility of seeing their properties built but as the developments involved were illegal that seems unlikely, to say the least.

There is a strong case for the Spanish to make drastic changes to various aspects of the judicial process and there are encouraging signs this has begun. There has also been a determined attempt to deal with the abusive practices such as a new law on land use in the Valencia region and various laws which aim to tackle illegal constructions on rural land. The chief culprits in the illegal builds scandal seem to be cash-strapped ;local municipalities which were only to willing to ignore or circumvent laws in their haste to have new sources of revenue. That is a huge indictment of the way in which funds are passed down to municipalities here.I'm not ignoring the fact that corruption and greed played a huge part too and it's undeniable that the Spanish Governments are making a start on clearing up the mess....how many local Mayors, Councillors and officials are in jail awaiting trial?  The slow speed of the judicial process applies to them too and some have been awaiting trial for years. Incidentally, it is not unheard of in the UK for accused people to be in prison on remand for over a year but this is usually taken account of when sentence is passed. Tough if a jury finds you 'Not guilty', though.

The only way forward is surely to do what most victims are already doing, to pursue their cases through the courts. Spanish lawyers are not 'in the main' corrupt, as one of our more prolific but inaccurate posters has claimed elsewhere on this site.  It is heartening to read of success stories.  Yes, the EU should press the case for reform. I wonder though what a UK Government would make of Spanish criticism of its legal processes!!  If it's possible to impose time limits as you suggest, yes, this should be done and I can't see what problems this would cause. Yes, assets should be frozen in some cases.

My personal opinion is and will remain that there are a huge number of uncertainties in the whole concept of 'off-plan purchase' which render it an incredibly risky venture.. Not just in the handing over of money for a lengthy period to largely unknown companies whose history and reputation it may be difficult to research but also in the fact that economic circumstances can cause huge fluctuations in the value of the property market over the long period of time -usually two years minimum, it seems -before the project is realised. As I've said before, you can have no true concept of the eventual appearance or ambience of what you have paid for -a pretty brochure can't supply this. There is also the problem of what happens when insufficient properties are sold to guarantee adequate income for community services. A prospective purchaser of off-plan has only promises to go on.  And why oh why did so many people use lawyers recommended by the developer or his agent?  Anyone who has purchased property in the UK will know that it is essential to use lawyers 100% independent of the vendor.  No UK solicitor should or could act for purchaser and vendor of a property - so why think it's OK in Spain?

Whatever I or anyone else may think of the pros and cons of off-plan, many people went ahead and participated in these schemes and in most cases were successful in eventually getting their property built . The evidence of that can be seen all along the Costas and inland. Some developments are so disfiguring of the landscape one could wish it were not so. The people who have for whatever reason not been so fortunate deserve support in their quest for justice. Each case is unique and should be so judged.  Some will win but others will never recoup their investment. Their cases stand as a warning to others.

Thanks to those of you who have sent nice pms!

 Dear All,

it is fine criticising off plan developments in retrospect, after the market has crashed, as long as you do not criticise those cheated.

however it seems likely that off plan is becoming the universal norm, companies would have to be very rich to return to the old spec' building, except for small estates and urbanisations, but the smaller you build the less advantage of scale there can be.

it would be interesting to know how many of the thousands of Spanish urbanisations have been built by the method.

it seems to be more and more popular for whole communities to be built and continually extended by the off plan method, all over the world.

so just how risky can it be?

Regards

Norman

There have been several postings lately on the community forums of people

recovering their deposits through the Spanish legal system.

This must be encouraging for those who have claims in the system

Justin is there a way of filtering the good news from the community forum posts

into this thread?

It may help to balance this thread.

they may be the small minority,maybe not.

if they could be encouraged to post how they achieved their success and to name the

lawyers used

it would be of great benefit to those who have claims in other developments.

Please forgive me folks but I want to direct you to an update that has just come through re the Spanish Property Scandal as we're looking for support and many have suggested within this thread that they are interested in helping in this regard. So please take an urgent look at the thread titled "Spanish Property Scandal" -  http://www.eyeonspain.com/forums/posts-long-10289.aspx for further info. and pass on the message to as many as you can. This is an ideal opportunity to bring this to the attention of MEP's.

At the request of ADS in another thread:

General questions for Maria please (also to be copied into the thread entitled Rough Justice Yet Again), and relates to communication and understanding the law in Spain.

What, if anything, is being done to tackle illegal asset stripping by developers in their endeavour to avoid their debts (transference of assets, following enforcement orders)? Has anyone had any success against this form of abuse Maria and can this be classed as criminal action if assets have been hidden or moved after an enforcement order has been petitioned following a case win? Of course yes, there is a crime called " concealment of property" and of course there are thousands of Case Law examples of these actions being punished.

If criminal action is required, does this then become cost prohibitive for the client to pursue? Not necessarily. Do you have any suggestions to offer? It depends on every case.

Maria, you have suggested recently that the way forward is to tackle the Banks where non provision of legal BG existed alongside developer breach of contract, so does this mean that all monies spent to date on court action against the developer becomes irrelevant, or is this an essential part of the legal process before further action against the Bank can be taken? Yes, it is necessary, in our opinion,  to follow the procedure against the developer too. Is this only possible as a last resort in the eyes of the law as it stands now, in other words is it dependent on a court win against the developer first or not? No, it is not, both procedures can be carried out simultaneously.

Is there any purpose in following legal action against the developer if it becomes an inevitability that they will manipulate their assets in order to avoid payment of debt anyway?  It is necessary as it is impoprtant to have the Court Decission against the developer in order to better prove the cause-effect relationship between lack of Bank Guarantee and damage. This is the most crucial part of the tort action.And as such does this imply that all legal action against a developer becomes a lottery due to little guarantee of achieving the objective for return of monies? The obtention of the Court decission is an achievement and it is, in our opinion, necessary for the  best  implementation of the tort action against the Bank. This does not mean that you need to wait for the Court decission to be in place before proceeding against the Bank.

These are basic questions that now require honest answers to clients if they are to understand and fully appreciate the legal situation in Spain, given the fact that developers appear to be increasingly employing abusive tactics in order to avoid payment of their debts.

Your answers and legal reassurances to the above would be most appreciated (on either thread) and I would suggest are essential to comprehend before clients commit to legal action.

Many thanks.

Thank you Maria.

Another subject that I would be very grateful for clarification Maria- developer appeals.

There appears to be an incredible time delay before the appeal judgement is finalised, as it has taken 13 months after the developer appealed before we even received a term to respond to the appeal by the court, and even now another 13months has elapsed and still we have not been given a date to the appeal judgement.

Is this the norm, or is there something that we can do to speed up this process? How much longer would you expect that we be kept waiting?

So long as the developer appeal is outstanding, can this compromise return of monies via a provisional enforcement order following a case win, or could it compromise the eventual action against a Bank re lack of BG? Or could this compromise the precedent that you identified in your recent legal tip 256, re recovering monies from the assets for those who suffer the consequences of a developer declaring insolvency.

I'm trying to establish what is the significance of a developer's appeal judgement being delayed in this way.

Questions below in bold green:

Thank you Maria.

Another subject that I would be very grateful for clarification Maria- developer appeals.

There appears to be an incredible time delay before the appeal judgement is finalised, as it has taken 13 months after the developer appealed before we even received a term to respond to the appeal by the court, and even now another 13months has elapsed and still we have not been given a date to the appeal judgement. Too much! Ask your lawyer/procurator if they can see what is the reason for this.

Is this the norm, or is there something that we can do to speed up this process? How much longer would you expect that we be kept waiting? It is not the norm at all.

So long as the developer appeal is outstanding, can this compromise return of monies via a provisional enforcement order following a case win no, it cannot , or could it compromise the eventual action against a Bank re lack of BG? No, it would not Or could this compromise the precedent that you identified in your recent legal tip 256, re recovering monies from the assets for those who suffer the consequences of a developer declaring insolvency. No, it would not

I'm trying to establish what is the significance of a developer's appeal judgement being delayed in this way. There is no significance for this. You must ask your lawyer/procurator to enquire about this.

 Dear Maria,

what is this all about...........

Regards

Norman

Hi Norman

I wouldn't pay any attention to that at all.  Someone seriously has a problem with Maria and he/she has been spamming the website for over a week with this rubbish.  They post under different names so it's obviously a spammer.

I did email this person to find out more details of his issue last week  but never heard back, so can only assume it's someone who's jealous of Maria and has started a hate campaign against her.

I've suffered this myself before and it's not very nice but I hope Maria doesn't get put off from contributing on EOS because of it.

Unfortunately Maria has created some enemies over the years, some who are very open about it, but that's what you get when you put yourself out there and are not afraid to speak your mind.  I am speaking from experience here.

Chin up Maria and don't let them get you down.

Justin

Thanks Justin. It is so good you also have experience of this so you can understand. I am now also somehow used to this and have started to learn not to pay too much attention.

Best week to you all! I will be here at EOS as far as you let me be :)

Maria

Please keep educating us Maria even if we ask all too many questions! It's much appreciated.

You are a sun ( un sol) Ads, as we say here in Spain instead of " a star".

By the way... we have a big sun today here!

And... by the way too: I have genes for being an educator ( my mom was a teacher) but ended up being a lawyer... that must be the reason why...

 Dear All,

I always try to call a spade.........

but am of course limited on personal experience and have to rely on you all for the complete picture.

I suppose the strongest argument against free speech is when it is abused like this.

It is something of a warning as to where "spinning" can lead.

Thank you Justin for your intervention.

Regards

Norman

Do not worry Norman, I can understand your concerns. :)

To Tom,

Please can you enlighten us after your statement about the lawyers on this web site? It is not very helpful simply stating that care needs to be taken, if anyone is to use their organisation.  Admittedly there are so many lawyers who have acted irresponsibly causing distress to many families.  However, there are some that have helped (far and few between though I admit).

Solicitors are in a position of trust, once they abuse that trust they are no better than a common thief except that they are in a better position than a thief, they do it legally because many of us are unfamiliar with the law here in spain.  I must admit I find it difficult to trust most professionals in spain because they never tell you as it is. 

Some solicitors in spain are good at stringing you along and we just keep waiting, hoping that they are the one honest solicitor. I now believe that solicitors are out to make money, it is their job. Similarly, it is our job to ask questions, get information, ask others for their experience be informed and get our monies worth. 

PUTTING OUR HEAD IN THE SAND HAS NOT WORKED, WILL NOT WORK AND WILL NEVER WORK.

Maybe we just have an unhappy character looking for someone else to blame for his predictament and the fact he has lost money (could be all his life savings) on a bad Spanish property transaction.

When Spanish property speculation goes bad most will have been to hell for a couple of years and don't know which way to turn and then the Spanish legal system is to hell and back all over again and the road is certainly not paved with gold.

There are many on these forums who can tell their real life stories of one court case, appeal, another court, appeal and despite favourable judgments have never seen a penny and probably never will.

Like the previous poster said sharing experiences and asking lots of questions is the way to go and remember a Spanish court is not a nice arena but for some maybe it's the only way/hope but I do suggest people explore all other options first and try to engage in direct communications and maybe for some, as I keep saying, making the best of a bad deal, if that is an option, is a better alternative?

Anyone discussing options with a lawyer should discuss what lies ahead if bank/developer dig in for a fight and how much this might all cost in the long run and remember there are no guranteed outcomes.

Also sometimes people hear what they want to hear and if a lawyer says you have a reasonable case it does not mean you have a guaranteed victory and money in the bank!

The main reason for the lack of effectivenes of the Court deciccions is the financial difficulty/ insolvency of developers. That´s why, as an alternative, even when there is still no Case Law backing this action, I would encourage people to use tort actions against those which shouls have secured the existence of Bank Guarantees.

Previous actions for contract cancellation and Court decissions on this are a good element to add to these actions as they will contribute to better exposition of the cause-effect relationship between  lack of Bank Guarantee- finantial damage. Under  Spanish Law, tort actions are not easy and the cause-effect relationship negligeny-damage needs to be very carefully proved together with an effective loss or damage.

The fight is ahead.

Best regards,

Maria

Maria,

To me this implies that there is no case law but you are presumably suggesting this forms part of a broader legal strategy to prove the case for negligency-damage in a last resort scenario, where the client is at risk of not regaining their monies through the normal legal route (for reasons associated with developer insolvency), is that correct?

Much depends at the end of the day however, on how much this adds to the costs of the "fight ahead", as if this is included in a law firm's overall fee to defend the case from start to finish, then it makes sense to examine and follow every possible avenue, including this strategy. The question to ask of any law firm therefore is, is this line of legal action to be followed even though there is no case law to support it at present, and is it included within the fee?

The trouble is no-one wants to be the scapegoat that tests out the theory to their own financial detriment, so I would hope that it would be included in the fee from the outset.

Most court actions, against developers, are initiated by foreigners. Developers seldom initiate court action, they don't need to because they would have had our money and disappeared to Morocco or Canada. 

There is no protection for foreign buyers.  We fight on at our expense and if we can affrord it we continue to fight on and loose.  In the meantime we are enriching the local population, solicitors, developers, councils, architects, juntas etc..

What can we do?  Cut our losses and quit whilst we're ahead.  Ensure that we do not make the same mistakes. Rent instead of buying.  Do our homework, don't be taken in by smiling faces and false promisses.  Just enjoy the holiday.  

However, if you wish to share your wealth, buy a property in spain you can be sure that you will be sharing your wealth.