Rough justice yet again!

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28 Jul 2009 19:04 by normansands Star rating in Kent. 1281 posts Send private message

Dear All,

It may be that I have been treated worse than Goodstich when the unholy group of four, in their conspiracy, relieved me of my life savings, unlike Goodstich I am not working and earning as he is now and was eight years ago.

This has obviously resulted in my extreme caution before making my last years a misery of illness and sacrifice to feed lawyers even more money to assist me in banging my head against a wall, as it looks like Goodstich has done.

Most especially as I regard the lawyers as the arch criminals here, they made it happen and led the conspiracy. My savings even went into their client account.

If I am to follow his example I need to operate due diligence and make every possible enquiry. I have little left to risk and I certainly do not regard risks as necessary, no thanks.

I used to be young and zealous, even eager to fight the good fight, but now I try to look most carefully at the odds before even waving my walking stick at unruly youngsters.

If my enquiries lead to anyone feeling foolish then I am sorry but how can I be to blame???

I did not influence them in any way.

If this forum is the fountain of knowledge and experience that I hope it is and not just a social circle of bored expats then it will judge all who post.

I am afraid that if the forum judges anyone as foolish then it is very likely that they are, myself included.

However bad the system is if it can only be changed by mass rebellion or divine intervention, then I can only partake in a group action, if there is ever such a thing. No money risks larger than a donation, thank you.

I hope that explains my position and hope no one is offended.

Regards

Norman

 



_______________________
N. Sands



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28 Jul 2009 19:26 by goodstich44 Star rating in northampton. 1636 posts Send private message

norman

I think we all clear on the fact we were first robbed by unregulated crooks and then by the very justice system who at the very least have failed so badly in their responsibility to do right for those cheated.

We need to move on now I think and find answers to what is to be done to put things right?. Mass rebelion would be great, but group action is more likely I would think?





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28 Jul 2009 19:35 by Tish Star rating in Surrey. 833 posts Send private message

Norman,

I fully understand your position. It would indeed be  unwise to embark on expensive litigation if on a limited income. It shouldn't be the case if Spain was honourable.





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28 Jul 2009 19:40 by MAGICMEG Star rating in Scotland. 546 posts Send private message

I will never give up I will fight to my dying breath to get back what was stolen / taken from me under false pretences .Many may think I am mad but I will never  walk away from this on principal . No matter what it costs me personally or financially .All the money in the world will not give me the same satisfaction that seeing justice done in all this  will give me .

The trick I think is to let the wrong doers know through your legal eagles that you will NEVER go away. No matter what they do in the future ,that you will always be there and will be letting every one else know what they have done and what they are capable of doing in the future .Make sure everyone knows what has happened as after all everyone knows that  " the best indication of future behaviour is past behaviour " . Good luck to all  keep up the good fight .MM



_______________________

  Nothing surprises me anymore  

     but I am willing to accept that sometimes (although not very often ) I can be  wrong !




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28 Jul 2009 21:46 by myra cecilia Star rating in Manilva Malaga. 213 posts Send private message

Magicmec. Good on you. Have you got the time to be the organiser of a group of people affected.  I am helping a friend who is not in Spain and have a good knowledge of the system. willing to help us go down the correct and cheapest path. I cannot accept that these companies are now building abroad. I could write a lot more and stronger but for respect to the forum! One day though.



_______________________

Myra Cecilia. www.costaadvicebureau.com




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28 Jul 2009 21:46 by myra cecilia Star rating in Manilva Malaga. 213 posts Send private message

Magicmeg. Good on you. Have you got the time to be the organiser of a group of people affected.  I am helping a friend who is not in Spain and have a good knowledge of the system. willing to help us go down the correct and cheapest path. I cannot accept that these companies are now building abroad. I could write a lot more and stronger but for respect to the forum! One day though.


 



This message was last edited by myra cecilia on 28/07/2009.

_______________________

Myra Cecilia. www.costaadvicebureau.com




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29 Jul 2009 00:53 by goodstich44 Star rating in northampton. 1636 posts Send private message

MAGICMEG myria

 

good for you both. It's just not on is it. I need to think very hard on what to do next, but as you say we must not let ourselves be just more victims.





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29 Jul 2009 02:00 by myra cecilia Star rating in Manilva Malaga. 213 posts Send private message

Last post for tonight work tomorrow. Why dont we put our situations down each of us and see what stage we are at. As I said I can get some information and free advice from some lawyer friends. they are not all bad. I will do my bit.. If some do no want to declare publically we can send some private msgs but lets get  a group together I am sure we will grow.



_______________________

Myra Cecilia. www.costaadvicebureau.com




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29 Jul 2009 02:36 by MAGICMEG Star rating in Scotland. 546 posts Send private message

Goodstich lets not loose sight of what Maria has said about Martinsa Fadesa this sets a legal standard .Why is this happening in one court regards one company and not another .Why are one group being treated as innocent consumers  when others are being treated as very low priority creditors ?

Your case is slightly different in that the MF thing is based on -  deposit paid  - no house  You were offered a property in return for your money but it was sub standard and not what was promised .I feel the fact that it was never offered with full licences puts you in the same category as the rest of us ,ie you were unable to complete due to the corrupt  actions of the builder council etc   

I think we should as  purchasers be thinking way outside the box ( no pun intended goodstich ! ). This whole property scandal is affecting thousands of people in many different ways and under many different circumstances  .Perhaps this time the devil is in ignoring the detail .We are all at the end of the day in the same boat .The individual circumstances and details of each purchaser is irrelevant as it all comes down to corruption and lack of regulation and enforcement of law by the powers that be  .This on the whole is the responsibility the Spanish government .They did not and still refuse to enforce their own laws .

I am thinking real big (way outside the box ) ie taking a massive joint action against the Spanish Government through the EU . I want  the recently withdrawn EU funding to Spain  to be put into a fund to compensate the  victims of ALL property abuses in Spain where the purchaser acted in good faith  . This could be possible through one huge  multi purchaser group litigation regardless of  which developer /builder/agent /initial purchasing lawyer / court  decision /land law etc  , it would be one massive purchasers anti corruption coalition .

Could we pull this off !!!!!!!!      What have we got to lose  !!!!!!!!!!

The biggest ever court action in Europe if not the world . I don't feel like putting all this to bed yet I think we should pull together and fight this .I never think of giving up .I am only wondering  and searching for the best  way to move this forward .

I never doubt  whether we should  fight on or not .Just which is the best way to do it  .

Justice MUST and WILL  prevail .

Suzanne  founder of the petition what do you think to this is it a possibility will anyone listen  ?   if we all shout together with one voice at the same time ,will any one hear  ? MM



_______________________

  Nothing surprises me anymore  

     but I am willing to accept that sometimes (although not very often ) I can be  wrong !




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29 Jul 2009 02:36 by MAGICMEG Star rating in Scotland. 546 posts Send private message

Goodstich lets not loose sight of what Maria has said about Martinsa Fadesa this sets a legal standard .Why is this happening in one court regards one company and not another .Why are one group being treated as innocent consumers  when others are being treated as very low priority creditors ?

Your case is slightly different in that the MF thing is based on -  deposit paid  - no house  You were offered a property in return for your money but it was sub standard and not what was promised .I feel the fact that it was never offered with full licences puts you in the same category as the rest of us ,ie you were unable to complete due to the corrupt  actions of the builder council etc   

I think we should as  purchasers be thinking way outside the box ( no pun intended goodstich ! ). This whole property scandal is affecting thousands of people in many different ways and under many different circumstances  .Perhaps this time the devil is in ignoring the detail .We are all at the end of the day in the same boat .The individual circumstances and details of each purchaser is irrelevant as it all comes down to corruption and lack of regulation and enforcement of law by the powers that be  .This on the whole is the responsibility the Spanish government .They did not and still refuse to enforce their own laws .

I am thinking real big (way outside the box ) ie taking a massive joint action against the Spanish Government through the EU . I want  the recently withdrawn EU funding to Spain  to be put into a fund to compensate the  victims of ALL property abuses in Spain where the purchaser acted in good faith  . This could be possible through one huge  multi purchaser group litigation regardless of  which developer /builder/agent /initial purchasing lawyer / court  decision /land law etc  , it would be one massive purchasers anti corruption coalition .

Could we pull this off !!!!!!!!      What have we got to lose  !!!!!!!!!!

The biggest ever court action in Europe if not the world . I don't feel like putting all this to bed yet I think we should pull together and fight this .I never think of giving up .I am only wondering  and searching for the best  way to move this forward .

I never doubt  whether we should  fight on or not .Just which is the best way to do it  .

Justice MUST and WILL  prevail .

Suzanne  founder of the petition what do you think to this is it a possibility will anyone listen  ?   if we all shout together with one voice at the same time ,will any one hear  ? MM



_______________________

  Nothing surprises me anymore  

     but I am willing to accept that sometimes (although not very often ) I can be  wrong !




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29 Jul 2009 09:47 by philevans Star rating in Axminster Devon & Sa.... 187 posts Send private message

philevans´s avatar

Hi Myra

I think what you're suggesting is a good idea, however, I know these petitions have been carried out before, directed at British & European Politians. Having said that I dont think it could hurt to bombard them even more. I'd be happy to put a website together where we could colate the information. - If you're going to Itzabar on saturday night perhaps we could talk more about it.

 

Phil



_______________________

What you see is what you get 

 




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29 Jul 2009 10:34 by goodstich44 Star rating in northampton. 1636 posts Send private message

MAGICMEG

yes, we should indeed shout about this far and wide until someone is made to listen.

Just a reminder of our last year up to date after fighting for justice since 2002

 our new lawyer  (first two bent) had at last secured an embargo on a property through the courts, but the court still took a year from accepting our case to bringing the trial. How wrong was that considering the developer was known to be on the brink of going under and had our deposit for over 5 years?  A year later in court the developer even made an offer before the case started.  Our lawyer had to reject the offer because he feared the developer would refuse to honour the court decision.  (what does that say about regulation?) So the case went ahead, despite the developer had as good as admitted guilt by the offer they made.  The obvious thing knowing the developers fragile situation, their offer and the time we had already waited would have been a quick decision from the judge so that our embargo could come in to action, but no!, the court waited a further 3 months until the  developer  went bust last week, and then told our lawyer he was on holday anyway till September so a decision wouldn't be made on our case until at least then, obviously rendering our court embargo useless, and making us just creditors at the bottom of the pile.

I really can't see any possible excuse for this, or any possible defense from the so called justice system. I want this heard loud and clear and action taken against those responsible.





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29 Jul 2009 11:19 by ******** Star rating in UK & Murcia. 573 posts Send private message

Hi Magic Meg, your idea sounds good.  Thinking outside the box seeems to be a way forward.

If petitions and traditional routes continue to get nowhere, there must be another way.  As the saying goes, hit where it hurts.  In this case it hurts them in the pocket.  The chain and culture of corruption is based on money.  If the country revised its rules for those involved in public service (at both local, regional and national levels), much of this corruption would become actionable.  For example, remove the ability of poliicians and council officers convicted  of offences from entering or retaining elected office or council jobs from the Spanish system.  That woud be a start.  There is also a good example in the UK.  It is called the Nolan Principles on Public Life.  I have no idea if the EU sets standards that member countries must meet, outside of meeting economic conditions to join, but something should be in place acrooss all member states to enable them to tackle corruption at the highest level.

Perhaps litigation against the EU for allowing such corruption within a member state would have some effect.  However, I fear it is endemic in many EU states, and EU politicians would not have the stomach for such a fight.  Anyone know a good politician and even better lawyer?  I would be happy to contribute to a 'fighting fund' if anyone decides to take it further.  Good luck.



_______________________

Jane




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29 Jul 2009 11:44 by normansands Star rating in Kent. 1281 posts Send private message

Dear All,

having watched the TV last night and seeing supposed E350k apartments not even getting a 90k offer, I am more than ever convinced that not completing was coincidentally the best option.

if I had completed I would now be in very serious negative equity.

I know Goodstich and others jib at this but there is no doubt that we are financially better off, however arrived at.

I shudder to think what a smart lawyer would do with a case of negative loss.

just a note of caution,

I am on board with whatever is decided.

Regards

Norman



_______________________
N. Sands



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29 Jul 2009 15:06 by goodstich44 Star rating in northampton. 1636 posts Send private message

norman

Why speculate on past and present market forces?  They have been for and agaist us, we have to accept that, good or bad.

Let's just concentrate on getting justice.





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29 Jul 2009 15:23 by normansands Star rating in Kent. 1281 posts Send private message

Goodstich,

I am merely concerned with what possible justice we may be granted for a provable negative loss.

if I am any judge I would think that compensation awarded would be based on actual loss.

Think about it.

Regards

Norman



_______________________
N. Sands



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29 Jul 2009 15:42 by goodstich44 Star rating in northampton. 1636 posts Send private message

norman

I hear what you are saying, but at some stage, had I completed on the contract size and sold about 3 years after the intended finish date, I could have made a large profit. Add that to years of stress and worry, and my loss is huge. Also had I completed, what's to say my apartment wouldn't double in price in the next ten years? As I say it's all speculation that could be argued either way so means nothing realy.  On the other hand, the lack of justice means everthing!

 





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29 Jul 2009 17:13 by normansands Star rating in Kent. 1281 posts Send private message

Goodstich,

I personally do not want to finance an attempt to change Spain's culture and system to the extent that you  obviously do.

Your idea of this nebulous thing called justice is beginning to sound somewhat extreme.

Your posts here are beginning to parallel the "animal rights" issue.

I was assuming that something could be done shortly, because at my age I only have "short" to play with.

If "thinking outside the box" is going to involve long running international campaigns, by all means sound off to your heart's content, but do it in parallel with some action that I will be around to see some resolution.

Action now please.

Regards

Norman 



_______________________
N. Sands



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29 Jul 2009 17:28 by MAGICMEG Star rating in Scotland. 546 posts Send private message

Norman I take your point ,I am only in my 40s perhaps that makes a difference .Unfortunately I think we have all found out there is no quick fix to this problem .Unless as you suggested you can afford to write the deposit off as a loss and start again .I can't afford to .I have lost £70,000 + and I am not going to walk away no matter what .



_______________________

  Nothing surprises me anymore  

     but I am willing to accept that sometimes (although not very often ) I can be  wrong !




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29 Jul 2009 18:38 by mariadecastro Star rating in Algeciras (Cadiz). 8577 posts Send private message

mariadecastro´s avatar

MAGICMEG said> Goodstich lets not loose sight of what Maria has said about Martinsa Fadesa this sets a legal standard .Why is this happening in one court( remember it is not a Court decission but an agreement taken by the creditors in majority and accpeted by banks) regards one company and not another .Why are one group being treated as innocent consumers  when others are being treated as very low priority creditors ? Again, this is not out of judicial treatment but of a creditor's agreement.

(...)

Suzanne  founder of the petition what do you think to this is it a possibility will anyone listen  ?   if we all shout together with one voice at the same time ,will any one hear  ? I do think Suzanne is the most authorised voice on this at the present moment. Let's support what she has already done!


 



_______________________

Maria L. de Castro, JD, MA

Lawyer

Director www.costaluzlawyers.es

El blog de Maria



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