| The Comments |
goodstich,
yes I tend to agee about the "old boys club" on the Spanish Law Society.
However I think it is a case of putting it on record and if you have not acutally complained about your original lawyer to his governing body then I feel thats something we really ought to do to help complete the overall picture.
If there ever is to be a meaningful investigation into all this ever then part of that investiation w ould surely to be find out why the Law Society was not taking action against Lawyers who were clearly in cahoots with corrupt Developers and not securing their Clients money ? If there are not complaints (or not enough) on record for them to look into then we cannot really complain about that to our MEPs !!! Its something I should have done when we got rid of our original Lawyer and will address it in due course.
Thanks,
John
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Another suggestion:
Perhaps someone would like to get in touch with David Cameron new PM and ask him to raise this issue directly with the Spanish PM ? I will put this as another thing on my "to do" list but please go ahead anyong who want to do this asap - the more the merrier.
John
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Just added my (relatively miniscule) weight by emailing them all.
Dave
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Have just e mailed them all surprised alresdy got 2 replies back, but sadly no reply from our own M.E.P. even after 3 e mails will keep trying tho.
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There is something else that I think pertains to our situation.
Surely there is case somewhere for taking Spain to the European Court of Human rights on many of these issues ?
For example I am thinking of:
1.The Spanish non enforcement of the law governing bank guarantees for off plan deposits. Surely this is basic violation of human rights by government in failing in its duty of care towards affected people ?
2.Being denied the ability to legally represent oneself thus forcing you to pay high lawyer fees ? I may be mistaken but I am currenlty under the impression that I have to use a Lawyer to reply to a frivoulous lawsuit.
3.Not being allowed to communicate directly with the Bankruptcy Administrators again being forced to use a Lawyer when you are a legitimate creditor.
Indeed I am sure we can think of many other violations of our basic human rights in this whole dreadful affair.
It would be good if we could get a delegation of BRitish MPs and/orm MEPs to take Spain to the European Court of Human Rights on these issues on behalf of us all.
Its something else to look into on my "to do" list but again as ever please feel free to use and suggest this idea when contacting MEPs and MPs.
John
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johnmfranci5
I found this reply below this morning which makes pretty grim reading. If true then we must be at liberty to ignore any laws/guidelines coming from the EU in my opinion. I haven't replied yet as I need to find out how much truth there is in this?
Dear Goodstich
Thank you for the distressing report which I am very sorry indeed to hear about.
Contrary to what you may have been led to believe - the EU has no power at all to get involved. The EU deals with people and goods which cross frontiers. Property does not cross frontiers - so there is no EU law at all about Property. Nor is Property a basic human right in the European Convention on Human Rights.
The Auken report was - simply - a recommendation by concerned MEPs but with no power at all behind it, because the EU has no legal basis to be involved in Property.. The Spanish government is legally free to ignore the report.
I can either dress my reply to you up with promises "to try to do something" and thus give you a temporary good feeling of hope. Or I can give you the real truth from the shoulder. I prefer the latter - because you will not be led up the garden path
The reality is that you are 100% in the hands of Spanish law. Just as a Spaniard who buys a house in Northampton would be totally subject to UK laws without any possibility of recourse to EU laws.. I am really sorry to have to tell you this.
All good and sincere wishes for winning your battles inside Spain.
Bill Newton Dunn
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Indeed. Thank you for posting this.
This whole affair really can be quite soul destroying at times.
I cannot really say I am too surprised.
At times one really does wonder what the point of the European parliament actually is ?
I still do think the infringment of human rights issue is one worth exploring though despite Bill's blunt honest reply referring to
Human rights/property etc.
It will be interesting to see what other replies we get if people would be so good to post them ?
We obvioulst need a few very few committed MPS and MEPS to help fight our cause. Also I am pretty sure the people at the Spanish property scandal petion will know the european law on this quite well.
This message was last edited by johnmfranci5 on 18/05/2010.
This message was last edited by johnmfranci5 on 18/05/2010.
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Goodstitch,
But what is relevant is that EU subsidies and funding to Spain is 100% in the hands of the EU parliament, and that is where we want the EU to intervene? The only place to hit these people is in the pocket. And knowing their current economic situation they can ill afford to lose out on any freebies that may come their way!
Maybe techno would like to comment on how great living is in this lawless society? Oh that's right, he hasn't been affected by it? Not yet anyways!!
But just my opinion.
Regards
_______________________
stu and jaq R4 428 I DON'T THINK SO!!!!
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Interesting. Having read Goodstich's response I went back to look at the 3 responses I have received so far. They are all from Conservative meps, and while they sympathise with the cause which they all say they are widely aware of, they only talk about putting pressure on the Spanish Government. Not one of them indicates that they have any legal power. It seems to me that Mr Newton Dunn is just saying what the others are avoiding to say.
Whether any of them are prepared to take any lateral actions to put pressure is another question......but I think not.
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Well if what Bill Dunn is saying, is how things stand at the moment, then it only makes our case for change even stronger!!
What on earth is the point of a Euro paliament, if it has no teeth to take action on clear human rights abuse issues?? We might as well all say f*ck the EU, it has no relevance to the most important issues, so let's just ignore anything it says and all do as we damned well please?
Surely it would make more sense for those who are supposed to represent us to fight our corner and do whatever is needed to secure justice for all those within the EU, and if that means re-directing subsidies to those wronged, when a member state is clearly abusing human rights, and not acting in an acceptable way, then that should be the action taken, or is the EU happy to just let the abuse go on, along with those who we trust to fight our corner?? W
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Goodstitch,
Regarding the reply from Mr.Dunn, I wonder if money could be classed as goods??
I appreciate that my property never crossed any frontiers for the simple reason that Aifos never built it, however my 80,000 euros deposit certainly did!!
Cheers Norman
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Perhaps Bill Dunn has done us a favour in possibly pointing us in the direction of the most effective mode of protest ?
Isn't it just typical of polictians to tell you what they cannot do rather than what they can ?
I and am sure you all can think of an awful lot of things they could do to make life very awkard for Spain and the EEC if they were inclined to do so. How about refusing to sit in the same parliamentary session or sit on the same committess as many Spanish MEPs until this situation was addressed for starters ?
Lets suppose this was happening with another non-eec state. If our government had a serious grievance with that country over serious infringement of the human, financial and moral rights of our citizens in that country what would you expect our government to do ?.
My expectation is that a government delegation from the highest level (eg Ambassaderial level) would make contact with that other government and let them know in uncertain terms the nature of our grievance and what we expected them to do about it.
(I will bet you Gordon Clown's government never did !!)
In diplomacy if course its far better to use the carrot and stick approach but if the country concerned is not willing to address such issues then you would expect our government to impose sanctions of a financial, economic, trade and policitcal nature. For example was it not so long ago that Britain was freezing Icelandic assets ? Therefore one threat Britain could make would be freeze the UK assets of Spanish Banks who had colluded with Devlopers in not giving Bank Guarantees.
My belief is we need to go to the highest level with this : Ie Mr Cameron. Perhaps we need to co-ordinate with the excellent hard working people at the Spanish Property Scandal and demand an audience with him and other high ranking Ministers ?
Surely then the first step then would be for the British government toi make a formal protest to the Spanish ambassador ?
This message was last edited by johnmfranci5 on 18/05/2010.
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I just received this from the Office of MEP Chris Davies (Liberal Democrat):
Thank you for contacting me about abuses of property rights in Spain.
This ostensibly involves misapplications of land use planning rules in Spain, resulting in expropriations and demolitions of homes which have been ruled out of order. For the people involved this is an extremely serious issue in which legitimate property rights have been undermined or even abolished in Spain. It affects homeowners there of many nationalities and property owners have been left questioning whether their rights as EU citizens have been breached.
Unfortunately this does not automatically make it an issue in which the European Union is legally permitted to seek justice. The EU is bound completely by the treaties signed by Member States. It is made clear in the Treaties that property law is the province of national and not European lawmaking. Despite this, Liberal Democrat MEPs have been doing what they can to campaign on the issue for several years.
In that time the European Parliament has adopted a series of resolutions that make clear the view of MEPs across the political spectrum that the practice of the Spanish land grab is unacceptable and must be addressed by the Spanish government.
Liberal Democrat MEPs supported both the Fourtou and Auken reports which identified the maladministration in Spain, called for Spain to investigate and arbitrate disputes, compelled Spain to carry out a thorough review and to revise all legislation affecting the rights of individual property owners as a result of massive urbanisation and to compensate where necessary. The Auken report also proposed holding EU funding in reserve until such time as the issues were resolved.
In response, the Spanish authorities have repeatedly argued that this is a local issue and that individual cases will be dealt with by the Spanish Constitutional Court. The European Commission cannot act within its remit as guardian of EU law until it can be demonstrated to them that rights and obligations enshrined in the EU treaties or Charter of Fundamental Rights have been infringed.
Last year Liberal Democrat MEPs sought to amend the EU budget to withhold European funding to the Valencia region until such a time that the government solves the land grab problem. This was unsuccessful because Spain has not beached EU law.
We are also pressing the Spanish Presidency of the EU to bring a new dynamic to addressing this unacceptable practice. In January, at the beginning of the Spanish Presidency, my colleague and member of the petitions committee Diana Wallis MEP personally asked the Spanish Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero to put an end to it.
I think this record of action demonstrates that Liberal Democrat MEPs are taking the issue seriously and doing what we can to seek redress for those affected. We shall certainly consider any specific initiatives that support affected EU citizens, so long as those initiatives are designed to help those citizens affected and are within the law as it has been given to us.
Yours sincerely
Chris Davies MEP
Liberal Democrat MEP for the North West of England
To me the important statement in this response was "The European Commission cannot act within its remit as guardian of EU law until it can be demonstrated to them that rights and obligations enshrined in the EU treaties or Charter of Fundamental Rights have been infringed. " so any comments anyone (especially those with legal knowledge)?
p.s. A contentious tack (last resort) might be to make the Spanish government take note by upping the anti by a very public and sustained campaign to discourage anyone considering buying in Spain from doing so, so long as the injustices/abuses remain. To highlight the vast array of abuses that have taken place in the Spanish Property market, and for all those affected to come together as a more powerful lobby group (rather than employ a more independent approach each highlighting individual causes).
This message was last edited by ads on 18/05/2010.
This message was last edited by ads on 18/05/2010.
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ads
sounds like the treaties not worth the paper it's written on when it comes to human rights? So it's ok then is it, if Spain flouts it's own laws on provision of bank guarantee's amongst the many other laws it chooses to ignore?.
from a personal point, I wonder if a two and a half year time spell between my case being accepted by the courts and final sentence being passed is also considered something we can't interfere with?
All we are hearing is how toothless the EU is when it comes to action against those clearly in the wrong. I had no idea just how useless the treaty is on this matter. If all our ministers can do is beg the Prime Minister of Spain to be honest, and do the right thing, then it makes a complete mockery of justice within the EU.
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See also
I shall be shortly be getting in touch with marta.andreasen-office@europarl.europa.eu. and the Spanish Property scandal petition. (And my own local MP asking him to request David Cameron to engage with them.)
As well giving them my fullest support and applauding the efforts they have made so far I shall be asking them to incorporate a far more aggressive strategy along the lines of what I have suggested below:(Ie my previous post)
(I believe this very much fits with the line we are getting that the EEC really cannot (or do not seem very willing) to do much about this and with Spain saying its a Spanish National issue.
Ie:
1.Engage the new British Prime Minister and make sure he is fully aware of the seriousness of this matter.
2.Ask him to delegate a senior cabinet minister to take charge of this issue with the objective of pursuing justice and compensation for those affected.
3.Ask that the Spanish Government at the Highest level is contacted possibly via use of the Spanish Ambassador or better still Prime Minister is contacted and given a list of demands and issues.
4Ask that other Heads of leading European Governments many of whose citizens are being similarly affected (Eg Germany and France) are contacted to engage their Support and encourage them to adapt a similarly tough line with Spain.
5.The Main priority demand to be that Spain sets up a compensation fund (with British Adminstrative involvement) so that all those people affected by the key issues such as land grab and those who should have been covered by a Bank Guarantee and have lost money as a result can be quickly compensated.
6.Secondary demands to include Spain to make a commitment to make serious progress on cleaning up its act with defined timescales and actions. Eg commitments to enforce the Off Plan Bank Guarntee law at the highest level by prosecuting with urgency all those Banks, Lawyers and third parties involved and to be tried for fraud. All personal and companty assets of the guilty to be seized and used for the compensation fund. Britain to offer full assistance in seizing such assets of the guilty held in Britain.
7.Spain to be enourged to comply with this for its own good and offered some incentives (Cannot think what just yet !!
8.In the event that Spain refuses or does not commit (and indeed do) take action then make it absolutely plain that Britain is prepated to take harsh sanctions against Spain incloding the freezing of Spainish Company assets in the UK. And indeed do it if Spain does not comply by specifed deadline dates.
I now believe its in the interest of us all to encourage and put pressure on our new Government to take this opportunity to show that they are serious about protecting the rights and interests of its citizens. Lets see if they are or are they going to end up as equally ineffeective and useless as the government just gone. Lets seriously hope not.
Please everyone continue to do what you can to assist that.
Thanks,
John
This message was last edited by johnmfranci5 on 19/05/2010.
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Dear All,
Is there not a general feeling in the UK that whilst we beat ourselves up with EU regulations that we find difficult to understand and perhaps not terribly relevant to our life struggles, other states do not treat them so seriously.
Do we not routinely join a queue to comply???????
Yet have a strong regard for those who do not????
"What on earth is the point of a Euro parliament, if it has no teeth to take action on clear human rights abuse issues?? We might as well all say f*ck the EU, it has no relevance to the most important issues, so let's just ignore anything it says and all do as we damned well please?"
In fact isn't this why we admire and enjoy the relaxed attitudes to rules in Spain????
Regards
Norman
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N. Sands
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Since when did you admire the relaxed attitudes to rules in Spain Norman, and for that matter have a strong regard for those that flout them? That's a first! 
I take it we are not talking of justice rules here? (note the thread title)
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http://www.eyeonspain.com/blogs/costaluz/3569/legal-tip-277-low-cost-action-against-banks-manifesto-by-costaluzlawyers.aspx
Legal tip 277. Low cost action against Banks. Manifesto by Costaluzlawyers
22 May 2010 @ 08:46
Because we see this is what is needed in the most of the cases were people bought off plan and did not receive a Bank Guarantee,
Because claimers are frustrated and tired of waiting for years for a Court decision to be honoured and this do not happen due to the financial status of developers,
Because it is a great tool to try to put some correction to the financial system in off plan purchases for the protection of buyers so we can be sure these current problems will not happen again in our country,
Because we need to show to foreigners that Spain has a strong and coherent legal system,
Because we can offer low cost action to groups of people under the rules of our professional ethical code,
Because Banks have been the necessary element without which the current off-plan disaster in Spain would have never happened,
Because Law 57/68 makes them clearly liable for the lack of Bank Guarantees,
Because we have been studying this action for months with the help of a first class Law Professor who is available to answer questions in Court regarding the report he produced for us,
Because is necessary, because you need it mainly
We are offering to all the EOS members the possibility of joining existing actions against Banks under provision 1.2 of Law 57/68 at a much reduced cost.
Main ground of Law 57/68 is the protection of money advanced by individuals before construction work begins or during it, in many cases the savings of a lifetime.
The actual preamble or “exposición de motives” of the said Law establishes that all the "abuses in this type of businesses have made as necessary the establishment of general preventive rules which will guarantee both the real and effective application of money advanced by purchasers and prospective customers to the building of the house and to the refund in the event that the building does not take effect".
The most preventive, general, inalienable obligation that this Law established was for banks or savings banks, where money was paid to by buyers, to secure the establishment of Bank Guarantees or insurance UNDER THEIR LIABILITY. Banks were therefore here established as guardians of legality.
Please contact us here: web@costaluzlawyers.es if you want further information about this.
Have a great weekend,
Maria L. de Castro
_______________________
Maria L. de Castro, JD, MA
Lawyer
Director www.costaluzlawyers.es
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http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_26490.shtml
I see this has come back to court at last:
The head of Aifos actually denies not returning peoples deposits for unbuilt properties !!
this case only seems to apply to 30 or so investors. One wonders why they cannot include the many hundreds of others similarly affected ?
The fact he is only facing a very short sentence and a laughable fine is rather typical of Spanish "justice".
Do not be surprised if he walks away scot free. Why has he ever had bail ?
If Spain wanted to pick 1 case to prove to the rest of Europe they were serious about sorting out the Spanish Property scandal this would surely be it ?
This man and his wife's personal assets should all be seized (and all deposits returned out of them)and he should serve a life sentence as they have ruined many other peoples lifes. Sadly I do not see that happening.
This message was last edited by johnmfranci5 on 23/06/2010.
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