Rough justice yet again!

Magicmeg. If it gives you any hope, a lawyer friend of mine is investigating to see if there is any way of getting funds back. He at least did say that if there were no assets he would advise going any further. I am also investigating looking for a loophole. After all the damn apartments are there in a lot of the cases. Spoke to Aifos staff who was trying to assure me for my client that if he signed the mortgage he could not lose the apartment. they have signed 200 in the Casares promotion he told me. I replied and what, you work for the company I am certainly not taking your word. They have a saying here " Do you think I just fell out of the tree"

Hi Maria ,sorry I misunderstood the situation , that it is a creditors agreement rather than a court judgement .How did this happen what did they do ? Was it by vote at the creditors meeting ? Is it unusual for the banks to agree to this ?  Will it ever actually happen ? Sorry Maria so many questions I know but I would like to understand as much as I can about  this !

As for Suzanne's brilliant work of course she has gathered so many together already that it would be great  for everyone to get involved with her petition and build on  what she has already achieved  . I get mad at many who moan about their situation but have not signed up to Suzanne's petition It means the numbers involved in abuses  are seriously under estimated  and therefore  the powers that be will be less likely to act swiftly .

Pleeease everyone get involved in the petition and visit the website for news and info   

http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk/2.html

Sorry not sure if the link works

MAGICMEG

I think Suzanne' s petition probably is the way forward for us. We have a head start with that, and it would not look like we are competing with it, or re-inventing the wheel!, and perhaps we could all help by updating our details as they change, and encouraging anyone in the local/national media to take note of our plight.

norman

if you want to argue with me on every point that's up to you, but i'm tired of that.  I just want justice for you, me and everyone else so obviously cheated, and i'm just trying to find the best way forward.  As you well know, nothing happens fast in Spain, Suzanne has spent a long time getting this far. Idea's 'out of the box' are great, but as to yet we haven't come up with as answer. I hope we can all pull in the same direction at least, whatever we do?

hi goodstitch i may be at the same stage as you . we bought off plan at cortijo de torreblanca in 2003 for completion in 2005 . it never got finished and after no joy , lies and been ignored by aifos we started court proceedings to get deposit back. we won the case last year and they never paid up. we won the appeal and still never paid up. we are in the process of puting embargos on their assetts but they've gone bankrupt in the meantime.

we've pulled out over 8000 euro so far on all this legal procedure.does that figure seem about right for spain ?  im hoping weve not thrown good money after bad . does anyone believe will get money from the creditors?

lets hope we all have a happy ending !

beck6632

what another good example of a complety useless justice system. As soon as your case was won, then if Aifos couldn't pay you, you should have been given an embargo on an asset to be auctioned within days to raise funds for your deposit. The courts have known for ages the dodgy workings of Aifos, and are only to aware of their fragile siuation.  They are also very aware that the only way to get money from Aifos is to sell off embargo'd property. What is the point of a justice system that doesn't enforce justice????????.  

I think this has to be a focus for action. The courts are  simply cheating us because they are letting known crooks get away with daylight robbery at the expense of those proved right in cases against the crooks in their own court!!!   What possible part of that could be called acceptable as any form of justice???

Our lawyer who has been confident of us winning our clear case of theft all the way through has now said he can't be optomistic following the news this week about Aifos. So, sadly no. As just creditors at the bottom of the pile we are unlikely to get anything back. I really believe government intervention is the only hope for us. Those cheated who's cases have been won in court or still will win their case , but still await decision due to the courts delay, should have their money returned or an asset, before banks and prefered creditors get a look in. Anything else is not justice but simply being cheated by the courts or the government whichever way you want to look at it?

Hi goodstitch44,

What an awful situation.  Reading your story and other similar ones on this site has really put me off buying in Spain.  I think we will continue to rent for the time being until things start changing.

It often feels like to get anything done in Spain, you need an "enchue" to help you out.  I guess this is a result of an overly bureacratic system and a hangover from the Franco era.

I think the European Commission needs to exert much more pressure on the Spanish authorities to tidy their act up.  It can't continue to disregard basic human rights in this way.

David

David

I think you are making a wise decision. I doubt if many who have property and are sailing along quite happily, have any idea of how hard it can be to get justice in Spain if they ever need it.  There just seems to be a complete lack of understanding over common sense right and wrong. Of course if you want to be cynical, you could say there is something darker going on?  What ever it is it's doing huge damage to individuals, Spains property industry and  their reputation on the whole.

If the Spanish government won't  come clean, admit the current system stinks and wont repay all those cheated by unregulated crooks or/and the justice system itself, then yes, the European Commission should indeed step in. As you say, to disregard basic human rights is wrong however you look at it.

Could the petition organised by Suzanne and sent to 10 Downing Street also be handed in to the Spanish Embassy in London?

Dear All,

when does a discussion become an argument??

when disagreement becomes apparent or just when one party "dares" to inject a note of caution into a highly charged debate???

when does a fact become an opinion???

we can only relate our own experiences but there are some on this forum with much greater experience of living and working with the Spanish system, who even trade in it.

the idealists say that Spain must change, cannot continue with its corruption, the traders say rubbish, you just don't understand the Spanish way or the Spanish people.

Inez is an experienced  trader and says that it used to be there that if you had a pulse, you could get a mortgage.

I say no, not in my limited experience, they would not give me a mortgage because of my age and pension income limitations.

However Inez must be right since she has the greater breadth of experience.

I say thank god she was wrong in my case, otherwise I might now have been deep, very deep, in negative equity, a loss far worse that the 30% deposit loss. A loss that Goodstich is reluctant to consider.

Who are we most sorry for, Goodstich who gave up Spain long ago, having put down a deposit on a very cheap property that he hoped to sell on at a profit, that did not get built, so he moved on in this country to a bigger better house for his family, or the unfortunate who had ploughed absolutely everything into a E350k apartment that Inez could not even get a E90k offer for and sadly had to hand the keys to the bank. Or perhaps the hapless retirees in similar position forced back to this country to go back to work at 70 with no prospect of owning a home again.

Legally, if it is just a case of breach of contract - hand back the deposit plus interest OK

If however proveable loss somehow comes into it then I wonder?

Perhaps a lawyer can say/give an opinion.

Onwards together, but don't be blinded by head in the cloud idealism.

Regards

Norman

"I tell the truth as it was told to me,

 I do not know what the truth may be."

Hello Norman Sands

As I mentioned in my previous posting

There are no arguments on this one.  Listen to Goodstich44 as keeping trying to take this thread off course is just p    g people off if  your are not careful

Its not about money or how much a property may or may not be worth .Perhaps a thread on that subject would be a goog one to debate or argue .

This is about the Law  . End OF

If I am wrong Goodstich then I am sorry. I just feel that with your guts and momentum by adding weight to that Suzanne Petition as you being the perfect example of everything wrong you just may be onto something.

No debate. Only Support.  You have mine  as  long as there are no sides. Justice .Fairplay and upholding the law thats supposed to be there so more like you dont get screwed.

Not inerested in anything else as I think its all been said before  .Your case is reality and as important I feel as the Priors.

They have to be made to change. They wont do it unless forced. and thats going to be the E.U I feel.

" Tell the truth as I see it"

   " I know the truth is justice for those that have or are being screwed"

http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_22532.shtml

norman

 well thanks a bunch, are you showing your true colours now? . Far from understanding let alone supporting my situation as I have always supported yours, you now accuse me of trying to buy a very cheap place purely to make a profit?, and then deny me the right to move house?

You are so so wrong. The property when we bought was around £90,000. In 2002 and  that wasn't cheap by any means. At it's peak it would have been valued at nearly double that. Had we sold then and banked the profit, we would be a hell of a lot better off than our loss we face now. Had we kept it, who knows what it could be worth in future, not just money terms but ''our place'' value. That's not even taking in to account 7 years of stress. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

As for why we purchased?  Like many I wanted a ''place in the sun''  I hoped to rent it out when didn't want to use it, and one day retire to Spain, the country i've always loved but is now leaving me with a very bitter taste.

You are just sounding bitter and jealous. I can understand that, but don't take it out on me. I just want justice for all of us wronged.

Tish

thanks for that link.

What more can you say?.  These are people the courts have denied me justice from by delaying my case.

Chimps

thanks again for your support and no, you are not wrong. Once again you have a good grasp on the situation. Tish's link shows what i've been up against for years, before being screwed by the justice system.

Dear All,

By all means bang the drum, rally the troops but don't lose sight of the facts.

My children will not now inherit a large chunk of my limited life savings and that makes me feel bad and mad.

However they also will not now inherit a great dollop of negative equity in a country with many problems.

Those are the simple selfish facts.

If that upsets any unconnected person, I am sorry, no offence intended.

Family must come first.

Regards

Norman

Dear Goodstich,

once again you misunderstand and refuse to face the facts.

I am neither bitter or twisted or jealous, nor does my support (such as it can be) waver.

In fact I hope and wish you are included in those mentioned in the clip...

The public ministry is also demanding that payments made by 14 potential purchasers be refunded in full, with an additional 3,000 € in each case for damage and inconvenience caused.

My circumstances are not as favourable as yours in that your proposed purchase was earlier and benefited by the market growth you mention of 100%  making it a cheap buy (had it gone ahead).

You would have even benefited from the possible opportunity to have flipped the contract and perhaps should have done once things reached 100% growth.

Perhaps if you re-read my post and your reply you will agree that you have in fact endorsed it.

Perhaps the traders and lawyers etc. will comment.

Best Regards

Norman

Norman

There you have gone and done it. That was below the belt if you dont mind me saying

If I may ask Norman is the motive of your posts. To mock Goodstich or to question his reasoning /decisions.

Have you bought property and have been screwed by the law ? You say you are elderly so I take it that you may have purchased and not happy that the market has dropped.

Norman

Goodstich44 agreed to buy a property at a legally accepeted price.  Thats all he wanted. He like you would have to live with price drops till the market came back and use/rent it in the meantime. Medium to long term investment.

The law is the law and if prices went up or down the loss/gain is not the issue  .The courts view on whats lost or gained is not a consideration  THE LAW IS THE LAW.

He has no investment good or bad because they have stolen his money  There is a law that should have protected him so that he could get what he agreed to buy or get his money back if they didnt come up what he agreed buy . Thats his part if the contract.

 Norman you are not going to get action NOW and no one is asking for money are far as I can see it.

Goodstich44 has lost a small fortune. Instead of doing what most would do he is asking for 100% support so that just maybe someone else will not fall foul to this outrage.

I do not wish to debate with you on this as there is nothing to debate.Nor is there anything to argue only it appears one that you are trying to make. I can see that you have had a bitter experience .Well so have many I am afraid.Taking it out on someone like Goodstich44 is not the answer.

Goodstich44 Please dont let this take your eye off the ball. The thread and momentum will die along side Normans money.

Its very sad if money has been lost to based on decisions or market fall in particuar later life but thats what happened to pensions in the U.K  or most places in the world.

Norman. Its simple as far as I can see. Support him and that Petition for changed or dont.

 Chimps,

We are all understand that goodstich was ripped off, period.!

There is no real point either arguing the fact or debating with individuals whos only purpose seems to be to annoy.

Certain individuals on here can be likened to wasps.....make a lot of noise....totally annoying ...and have no real point.

I would say one thing in answer to a previous poster who mentioned that he would conyinue to rent and not buy at the moment...Goodstich's problems eminated from the boom and encapsulated the greed of many developers in selling off plan property, the only people who buy off plan now are people looking for custom built villas etc.....there is plenty of standing stock or resale available that you can do all the checks on quite easily to make the buying process simple.

The off plan illusion was based on trust, trust to build, trust for legality etc etc....

The reward was capital gain,unfortunately trust was broken.

If you are looking at property at the moment and you can stand in it,look out the window and like the price tag it is as good a time to buy as ever before, mainly because of Forums and the plight of the goddstichs of this world, everything has to be crystal clear.