Rough justice yet again!

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03 Aug 2009 17:48 by goodstich44 Star rating in northampton. 1636 posts Send private message

Hi all

So what do we do?.  I feel we have to know if Aifos have enough to pay the creditors at the top of the list if that's not going to be us?.  And at our likely best position in the list, having paid the 1200e would there be anything left then? 

In the Martin Fadesa case that maria mentioned, the creditors agreed to pay back those who had no property. Is that a possible angle for some of us, and how does that work?

 





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03 Aug 2009 18:38 by myra cecilia Star rating in Manilva Malaga. 213 posts Send private message

Goodstich44. Please note the new post as promosed. AIFOS AND LAWSUITS



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03 Aug 2009 19:46 by PuertoGolfLoser Star rating. 8 posts Send private message

Goodstitch44,

Bascially got the same response from lawbird as you - they will not consider a group case for creditor listing.

Therefore only option is to pay the Eur1200 if want to get on the list (as you mentioned they state that tthe fee is to try to get us as far up the list as possible - does that really mean anything with Aifos in the state the are? - Who knows.

Right now although I'm getting a sense of deja vu about throwing more good money after bad, I really doe't want to let those b****s win, so am strongly considering carrying on with the legal route.

Lawyer did mention that Aifos are supposed to contact us all individually to allow us to register for creditor list - but fat chance of that happening.  I asked if they knew who the court appointed administrators would be - and they say it is only ruour at present - but that rumour is that it will be PWC.  If we are supposed to be able to apply to Aifos or the administrators directly to get on the ist how come the administrators have not been officially announced?

Lawyer  reckons that even if we manage to get on the list directly through Aifos or administrators, we are unlikely to be able to get any seniority level without taking the legal route and therefore extra legal fees.

Feeling pretty helpless, but pretty much resigned to more legal action / more legal fees - probably very shortly, so as not to miss the one month dealine.

 

 

 





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03 Aug 2009 20:52 by MAGICMEG Star rating in Scotland. 546 posts Send private message

Hi all I have just been through all this in the last year with the  San Jose Administration .E 1200 sounds really good to me ( is this just to register credit with the admin .I have paid  E3500 to date to register ,resolve my contract and fight for a higher place on the creditors list . I only got ordinary credit status . I wonder if the E 1200 is just for starters .There is also power of attorney fees ,procuradors fees etc etc etc . It has been along and expensive year .I would like one of the legal eagles to comment and let us know if being awarded a higher creditors position IE credit against the mass is possible ,it was not for any purchasers in the San Jose or  HdT administration which involved  very large amounts of purchasers and different lawyers so far I don't believe any one actually achieved this .PS San Jose did the very same thing ie gave us one month just before the courts closed for summer break !!!!!!!!!!! it was one hell of a rush to do everything on time .Good Luck to all  MM


 



This message was last edited by MAGICMEG on 03/08/2009.

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03 Aug 2009 22:16 by MAGICMEG Star rating in Scotland. 546 posts Send private message

PS to my last post.

I forgot to mention Some in the HdT /SJ admin registered on the creditors list by themselves without using or paying for a legal eagles

.I think they lived in Spain and perhaps spoke a little Spanish but with help from friends ,translation etc were able to do this them selves and achieved no different outcome to those using legals .Worth finding out about . It may be of use to go to the EOS community forum for Santa Ana Del monte and ask if anyone who did it this way can advise .Cheers MM



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  Nothing surprises me anymore  

     but I am willing to accept that sometimes (although not very often ) I can be  wrong !




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03 Aug 2009 23:19 by normansands Star rating in Kent. 1281 posts Send private message

Dear All,

great posts with the information gradually coming forth, oh for an honest straightforward lawyer who would give a proper summation with quotation to completion and stick to it. Surely with a group of exactly identical complaints and claims they could not possibly lose.

Goodstich says his lawyer was "brilliant" but it seems that he was only following a much trodden routine.

Now it seems that they cannot even honestly claim an advantage from their expensive use.

Time to do it yourself I think.

Not my case but if Magicmegs is right with fees up to E3,500 that is too high to risk.

Dare I refer all new cynics to my earlier post on the law and lawyers.

We had a lawyer here once who told the truth and was condemned for it, he wrote on the subject explaining and proving case by case how lawyers will bankrupt and kill you with their unnecessary activities at sky high rates, pretending always that you cannot do it yourself. Unfortunately this rare bird is no more but his books live on.

Go to it.

Regards

Norman

 

 


 



This message was last edited by normansands on 03/08/2009.

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03 Aug 2009 23:42 by myra cecilia Star rating in Manilva Malaga. 213 posts Send private message

Normansands.  Some of those lawyers are still around. Earlier I posted a new `post or thread on information I got today from such a lawyer. Titled Aifos and lawsuits. He gave me this info today as it seems that quite a few people had been told that their lawyers could get them on the top of the creditors list. This is not the case. A little bit of interesting info. Today I got an email from Aifos reference one of my friends and members saying that he and any other purchasers that may be my members could go ahead and sign at Hacienda Casares. I obviously have been advising against him signing. A member of this forum who can name themselves if they wish were recently told by aifos I believe that this very same promotion has no licence and they will exchange for another property. I hope that they do not accept. More lies on top of more lies. You see Aifos is still trying to get more money illegally out of purchasers, today in fact and they have been declared bankrupt. Can you believe this. They do not sound a bit concerned that they are I believe breaking the law on top of all the damage they have caused. I am going to this promotion tomorrow morning. 2 kms from where I live. I will not be a happy bunny and have some words for them. This and other emails are going to the lawyer asap. By the way the reply to these emails bounce back.



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04 Aug 2009 00:00 by MAGICMEG Star rating in Scotland. 546 posts Send private message

Normansands your negativity is too much I am only trying to inform others with my experience over the last year . By all means be objective but I don't think you constant aspersions help anyone reach an informed decisions .Target those that are in the wrong not your fellow victims ! 

For instance in your last post  " Not my case but if Magicmegs is right with fees up to E3,500 that is too high to risk."

Why would I lie .I know waht I have paid and how far it got me  . What do you require Norman copies of my legal  receipts ??????

Please !!!!  I am only trying to help as I am a year further down the line  in this process  but  with people like you on this forum it makes me wonder why I bother

Best regards MM



_______________________

  Nothing surprises me anymore  

     but I am willing to accept that sometimes (although not very often ) I can be  wrong !




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04 Aug 2009 00:39 by MAGICMEG Star rating in Scotland. 546 posts Send private message

Sorry for hogging the blog but other things that may help keep coming to mind .

There is a British Consul list of English speaking lawyers in Spain that are approved and checked for UK citizens to use . Maria de Castro put a  link to their website on the  EOS  thread on "Spanish Lawyers" I think  .You can also call them to check when the lawyer was  approved how often they are checked and if there are any complaints registered against them etc .

As regards pricing the Lawyers in Spain are regulated by regional law colleges a bit like our law societies .The colleges set the prices and lawyers are supposed to abide by the prices set .Standard charges for procedures can be checked by contacting the college your lawyer belongs to .Ask them which they belong to and for their registration number .

When I engaged my lawyer he gave me a full and complete break down of all charges I could expect  for each stage. Where he could not be absolutely sure depending on  outcomes at different stages he made this clear . When I checked it with the law college it was correct .Do not be afraid to check if your lawyer is above board he will not mind .

He also made perfectly clear when each amount would be due and sent evidence ie the court papers for each stage so I could see the proof of his actions and what I had paid for .Don't be afraid to ask for the relevant paper work as proof the work has been done .

I would also like to add that as in the UK you engage a lawyer and it is up to you to instruct them on what action you wish them to take .They advise and you instruct that is the way it works all over the world .It is often difficult as deadlines in Spain  are tight due to the developers manipulation of the system regards holidays court closures etc .

 It is very easy to blame the lawyers all the time and suggest they are on the make .This is not always the case despite the very best of intentions regards their client's welfare sometimes the system beats them too .

Now the lawyers on the forum hate me !!!!  but only the ones who are not above board !!!!!!

Hope this helps   Regards MM

 



_______________________

  Nothing surprises me anymore  

     but I am willing to accept that sometimes (although not very often ) I can be  wrong !




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04 Aug 2009 00:59 by normansands Star rating in Kent. 1281 posts Send private message

Magicmegs,

it seems I am doomed to be misunderstood.

I posted........."great posts with the information gradually coming forth"

was I wrong????

Please do not stop posting on my account or blame anyone else for my views. I for one very much welcome your news and information, I am a great believer that your and others information is the lifeblood of the forum.

Please do not be put off by anything I may say, or the manner in which I say it. There is absolutely no malice intended.

As to negativity....................just try reading Michael Joseph's books to read the proof that your legal eagles will do to you what they have done to others if they can.

They will both bankrupt you and you will die from the strain as others have done, if you are not very very careful.

You have previously said that no matter what it costs, you will not give up.

That is of course exactly what they want to hear, that is the sound of a fish well and truly hooked.

You say you have paid E3,500 just to get on a list, with no guarantee that it is a final amount.

To an old pensioner like me that is mind blowing stuff. It frightens me silly, please be careful

Regards

Norman

 

 

 


 



This message was last edited by normansands on 04/08/2009.

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04 Aug 2009 02:05 by MAGICMEG Star rating in Scotland. 546 posts Send private message

Hey Norman ,

Not just to get on the list a lot of other stuff involved ie resolving my contract proving developer was in breach etc .

I understand exactly why people are nervous about chucking good money after bad and to be honest if I did not have a BG I don't think I would have gone this far  however there are more issues to be considered when deciding what to do and how to protect yourself best . The registering with the admin is a just an  in case for me but who knows what will happen .To be honest  getting on the list should not cost a lot and can be done on your own if necessary  ,most Spanish purchasers would not consider taking on a lawyer to do this part .

There is however an absolute need to do it whatever your circumstances  and to do it on time just to cover all your bases just in case of all eventualities . 

This is the bit I can not get my head around as no one knowsnot even the lawyers  and perhaps only time will tell .You would think that at least one of the admins would have reached a conclusion/decision  by now to give us some sort of  base line . Is this just coincidence ? I don't think so !

If people have only paid  an initial  deposit and no staged payments to date it may be better to walk away .However there are a few worries I have in that if the companies are allowed  to trade on are the contracts we have signed still enforceable. ie could we be forced to complete at a later date if the properties were built and at what cost ie lack of amenities quality etc

I think we could be forced to complete if the companies are allowed to trade on and the contracts are still legal who knows what sort of developments we would be accepting certainly not what we originally signed up for .Do we want to be back in the court system further down the line ? This is why one of my priorities no matter the cost  was to have my contract resolved by the court as the developer had failed to complete on time thus releasing me from any legal contractual obligation in the future 

 Also I can not enforce my BG until the contract is deemed in breach /resolved by the court .Therefore I can now move this forward ,it is not crystal clear and the rules surrounding BGs seem to be forever changing ie we are told the BG is for when a company goes into admin but we are also told no decision will be taken until the fate of the company is decided .I would have thought that the fact that they have had my money for 5 yrs and have not provided me with a house would be enough to enforce payment of the BG .

It really worries me that these incompetent  companies who's actions have been in many instances illegal nae criminal are going to be allowed to continue .Surely if this is allowed to happen then they must first pay back  all creditors .Therefor it  is prudent to do as much as you can to make sure you are  on the list  as no  one knows yet what may happen and what it will mean in the future .

So Norman please don't  liken me to a fish caught on a hook just because I know what I want to achieve and am realistic about what it will cost  . I have done my homework and will do what I have to do .Time alone will prove who is right . MM

PS Norman What is the title of the Michael Joseph book I might give it a go  MM


 



This message was last edited by MAGICMEG on 04/08/2009.

_______________________

  Nothing surprises me anymore  

     but I am willing to accept that sometimes (although not very often ) I can be  wrong !




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04 Aug 2009 09:33 by MAGICMEG Star rating in Scotland. 546 posts Send private message

Only last week I read that Spain gave millions in aid to a third world country  .Nice gesture  but who's money was it ,mine yours and all the others who have been robbed by the Spanish system  .Who knows ???????? 

Every one no matter what property abuse they have suffered ,no matter what the circumstances or situation is  ,should sign on to Suzanne's petition. The numbers and vast amounts of money  involved in this is being  grossly under estimated by the powers that be .If nothing else the true extent and costs of all property abuses in Spain should be in the public and political domain .What have you got to loose stand up and be counted Best regards  .MM

http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk/2.html



_______________________

  Nothing surprises me anymore  

     but I am willing to accept that sometimes (although not very often ) I can be  wrong !




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04 Aug 2009 09:58 by goodstich44 Star rating in northampton. 1636 posts Send private message

MAGICMEG said

''I understand exactly why people are nervous about chucking good money after bad and to be honest if I did not have a BG I don't think I would have gone this far''

.......this is the position I am now in.  Aifos never issued a BG on our development. (we were lied to by UK lawyer at the time) We have paid a third deposit + legal fees, loss of interest, time, stress , worry etc over 7 years..  (about £50,000+plus down) I thought the fact the lack of BG is illegal in itself, along with Aifos ''selling our apartment by mistake'' and then offering one half size with no discount, two years late, (and this is after sending us a copy of a building license on the development they transfered us from, that never in reality had a building license, so was never built!!!)  would give us such a strong case, that with a decent lawyer and patience we would in the end win.

My wife and I have now reached a stage where we are thinking we cannot win?  We have a case of fraud, deception. lies, breach of contract etc, so clear, but stands for nothing.

If we walk away now, we have to admit defeat and that our 7 year battle for justice is lost, but what is the point of throwing more money in, when we are so obviously in the right, but face a system that refuses to recognise that, whatever we do?

If we join the creditor list,  and I guess after all this time we owe it to ourselves to do that, then we don't have much of a family holiday this year. Not the end of the world by any means, but rubs more salt in the wound. That will be the last money we shall pay out. We have had enough. We have to draw a line under this and have closure at some stage, and we are fast reaching that stage. I have a family and small business that deserve my attention far more than a corrupt Spanish system. I will continue to raise awareness of our situation through whatever media possible, as well as government offices and whoever will listen, but I also have to try to lose much anger and bitterness about this for the sake of those around me!





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04 Aug 2009 10:17 by coombsey Star rating. 14 posts Send private message

Can I just clarify something with everyone, are Aifos in administration or bankruptcy?  Some posters are using the word 'bankruptcy' and some use 'administration'.  There is a difference.  My understanding is that Aifos applied for voluntary administration, this application was accepted by the courts a couple of days ago and Aifos are therefore in administration.  Have I misunderstood or are other posters using the word bankruptcy incorrectly?  Perhaps one of our legal experts could clarify?





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04 Aug 2009 10:31 by myra cecilia Star rating in Manilva Malaga. 213 posts Send private message

Aifos. According to the BOE. which is the boletin of the state Aifos were declared bankrupt on the 31st of July. they have now through Adminstrators who I am not sure have been named but could find out  from a lawyer who deals in these cases. to make a list of their creditors. They must also list their assets and have two months or three if they ask for an extension to complete the courts ruling. Please look at my post AIFOS AND LAWSUITS for some further infomation.



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04 Aug 2009 10:50 by coombsey Star rating. 14 posts Send private message

Thanks for your reply Myra, I have just checked through a statement from my lawyers following the announcement on 31st July and it states that Aifos are in administration, not bankruptcy as is being reported by the papers.  I have to admit that upon reading the statement it does seem to make sense that they are in administration now, which may or may not lead to bankruptcy - that will be decided by a mercantile judge. 





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04 Aug 2009 10:50 by goodstich44 Star rating in northampton. 1636 posts Send private message

Hi myra ......(whoops, put this on your thread first)

so I assume until the figures come out about just what Aifos's assets are worth compared to the amount being claimed by creditors, we wont know where we stand with regards to geting any  money back?  Or is there a way of finding that out before we all just throw 1200e in?


 





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04 Aug 2009 11:16 by MAGICMEG Star rating in Scotland. 546 posts Send private message

goodstich 44

I have just been checking out fees with some of the Spanish law colleges .I think you will find the E1200 is just for starters ie payment up front .It would be worth checking this with your individual lawyers and asking for further details ie a braek down of all expected costs  . I fear the final tab will be much more ! MM



_______________________

  Nothing surprises me anymore  

     but I am willing to accept that sometimes (although not very often ) I can be  wrong !




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04 Aug 2009 11:36 by goodstich44 Star rating in northampton. 1636 posts Send private message

MAGICMEG

Yes, i think that would be the case if the 1200e doesn't put us high enough on a creditor list to get anything. That will be it though for us. If a further 1200e doesn't get us anywhere, then I think we can assume there will be no justice for us and many others, apart from perhaps those few who have a huge amount of money to pay a lawyer to gamble on an eventual win?





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04 Aug 2009 11:50 by normansands Star rating in Kent. 1281 posts Send private message

Dear All,

Michael Joseph wrote and published two books - "The Conveyancing Fraud" and "Lawyers can seriously damage your Health".

The reason he had to publish them himself was that the "Lawyers" closed ranks on the system to ensure that no other publisher would publish them.

Despite reading them I was still naive enough to believe that "Power of Attorney" was a strict government controlled method of allowing others to act for you with every protection and rigid duty of care in place. I trusted my young English lawyer working for an International firm with that power.

To my astonishment and dismay he allowed that power to be used to exchange contracts with no finance in place, he then promptly resigned when I pointed out his actions were more than wrong, but actually insane.

Given that all lawyers had full knowledge  of what was going on in Spain yet did nothing about it through their own "discipline system", why should they now be trusted with more of your money?????????.

It is the lawyers who facilitated these frauds and they did it in full knowledge as part of the conspiratorial group. IT COULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED AT ALL WITHOUT THEIR ACTIVE PARTICIPATION.

Now to my mind that makes them the architects of the mischief, yet you are asked to trust them with your endless supply of money to feed them to provide you with justice. That also appears to me to be insane.

As to your position in the funds ladder a snow ball in hell comes to mind, but of course your "brilliant" lawyer would have guaranteed that for you wont he??????????

Regards in sorrow.

Norman

 


 



This message was last edited by normansands on 04/08/2009.

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