Rough justice yet again!

miket

I really feel that there is a problem in the Spanish courts with either knowing or accepting ''right and wrong''.  There are certain developers for instance who have been known to the courts for years for bad practice, but still the appeals by them are allowed and time scales for hearings and passing of sentence against them are far often longer than is reasonable for the protectection and justice of those wronged by them. There seems to be a hopeless lack of legal bodies in the position to regulate against very obvious wrong doing in Spain, so even blatent and very clear cheating and betrayal of trust ends up in long and costly court case, often with a bad result for those in the right, instead of the dishonest party being bought to book at the apprpriate time. As  the penalties for being in the wrong are so feeble in many cases or not even recognised as we would expect, then it's little wonder that being honest, being in the right, following the rules, etc etc, often stands for so little in Spain. I just feel it's a dreadfull and very wrong situation by any measure of common sense and the way the system works will  never be acceptable without change.

Many things need to be improved.

Many Judges are already working for this cause, if that brings to you some relief. Many of them consider the Judicial Power  is politicized and that there is a clear lack of independence. The main organization of Judges working for this cause has already 600 members.

maria

I think ''politicized''  is a very polite way of putting it!.   Good on those judges who are working for the cause. If the system is changed to one that can be trusted to use common sense on clear issues of  'right and wrong', then the benifits to individuals and in the long run Spain's reputation, could be huge?

I am completely with you Goodstich.

Thanks to Maria for the information. It's much appreciated.

Isn't this yet more information then to bring to the attention of the EU? The Spanish government should be made to face up to the realities of what is ACTUALLY happening on the ground right now and be made accountable if they refuse to acknowledge that justice is not being administered fairly.

Everyone who is aware of these facts firsthand should be writing to an MEP compassionate to their cause.

If anyone needs details re an MEP who has recently brought problems to the attention of the EU to date then here it is (apologies for repeating this over and over…..):

Write with specific details to marta.andreasen@europarl.europa.eu

She recently spoke out in the EU parliament see:

http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_24784.shtml

Also I noticed another recent thread that might be relevant:

http://www.eyeonspain.com/community-forum/18979/about.aspx

Hi all,

Not sure whether our MEP's can do anything anyways!!

Just had reply number 2 from an MEP in my area ( after writing to 7 MEP's ) saying that there's not a lot they can do!! They thought it was a Spanish national matter!!! Have given more detail,at my MEP's request,  regarding my lawyer, Spanish bank involved, etc. so here's hoping, but looks like we can only get somewhere in the European parliament if we had a lorry load of UKIP Marta Andreasen's grabbing Zapatero and the rest of those cronies by the short and curlies!!

Just my opinion but.

Regards

I would certainly encourage you to contact Marta Andreasen   marta.andreasen@europarl.europa.eu   

You lose nothing!

Warm regards,

Maria

I take your point jaqib but power in numbers and all that...... surely if thousands wrote to Marta (ever the optimist) then they can't ignore it can they? Spread the word and the momentum may grow.

jaqib

yes, that is the standard reply we get from MEP's. Bloody hopeless isn't it!.  We are supposed to abide by  EU laws, but when we need Spain just to conform to human rights and common sense reason that alone law, we are told it's a 'national' matter. If the MEP's haven't got the balls or know how to do anything,  then those like Marta are probably our only hope until Spains decides itself  to start being reasonable, and I think that could take years, if it happens at all?

http://www.eyeonspain.com/blogs/costaluz/3107/legal-tip-240-new-measure-to-protect-british-in-spain.aspx

The consulate will monitor the Planning interests of British in Andalucía and Valencia



The autonomous communities of Andalusia and Valencia will have a British consular official in Malaga and Alicante, which will be devoted to inform and warn citizens of the United Kingdom on the various issues that may affect them, mainly in urban affairs, as it has been announced by the Secretary of State for Regional Cooperation, Gaspar Zarrías.



Zarrías, together with the counselor of Housing and Planning of the Government of Andalusia, Juan Espadas, met on Sunday at the British Consulate in Malaga with British Minister for Europe, Chris Bryant, and the British Ambassador in Spain, Giles Paxman.



Secretary of State Zarrias reported that some months ago he had several meetings with British representatives in order to implement procedures for collaboration and cooperation between both countries as there are a million of UK citizens living in Spain.



The agreement will be effective, he said, within a month, and will allow an officer to be present at the Consulate in Malaga and Alicante so that the British people can know and have information about urban issues, health or social welfare, among others.



"We intend to work preventively to provide information as once the problem gets into the judicial machinery, solutions are more complicated “he said, referring to the status of eight British families living in the town of Albox, Almeria, which are affected by court orders for the demolition of their homes.



At this point, the British Minister for Europe, questioned on the legal safety of Spain, said that if the homes "fall for legal reasons, it does not help," hence, he continued, the importance of this measure.



"It is better to seek a solution before it gets to court and although in the case of Albox,  they hired the services of a Spanish lawyer, they are still threatened by demolition-judgments and that seems  unfair to many Englishmen," he said.

 

Both Zarrías and Espadas stressed that legal certainty in Spain is "total and absolute." “British know that the rule of law works here, law exists and everything is done according to law," declared Secretary of State for Regional Cooperation, who reiterated that the launch of this service is precisely to provide information "before trouble producing actions are carried out”

maria

well that looks like a move in the right direction, but I think this last paragraph in particular below is just not true?

''Both Zarrías and Espadas stressed that legal certainty in Spain is "total and absolute." “British know that the rule of law works here, law exists and everything is done according to law," declared Secretary of State for Regional Cooperation, who reiterated that the launch of this service is precisely to provide information "before trouble producing actions are carried out”

........what a load of rubbish!. How cany people know about planning rules that are changed after the right paperwork has been obtained?. Laws are very often not implemented against the worst crooks, and the victims of the crooks seldom get real justice when it comes to return of stolen monies. Court cases are often delayed for a ridiculous amount of time, and appeals are are allowed by known crooked developers. This is just a small selection of ''wrongs'' people might well face when trying to buy in Spain. Will  these facts be part of the information service??

That was my reaction as well Goodstich to the statement "British know that the rule of law works here, law exists and everything is done according to law ".

Incredulous that they can make such a definitive statement when in reality on the gound it's so untrue. So many are being compromised by massive court delays within the judicial system, and how they can ignore the inconsistences of judgements made by some  judges who as Maria has confirmed are "politicized with a clear lack of independence" is beyond me.

"Legal certainty in Spain is total and absolute"..........based on what I would like to know, when there are  thousands who are struggling to achieve justice right now and at what cost?

I'm wondering if we have misunderstood this statement Maria. Can you confirm therefore your thoughts on this statement please.

ads

Good indeed to hear from Marta's people today. A voice of common sense and reason at last!

Yes ads, it looked like such a positive initiative until I read that statement.

Maria is on holiday in London at the moment so I assume she won't be online for few days.

Justin

 Maria. I admire your optimism. Please do not hold your breath. I am not negative just aware.

............continued from the 'is living in Spain that bad'  thread.

I really don't want this to turn in to a 'them and us situation' again,and I have no wish to have bad words with anyone on the forum, so can we at least accept that a substantial number of people have been cheated through no fault of their own, and following years of injustice, some of us have even won their cases against the cheats, but due to the system have never recieved anything back (so far!) The cheats are often those in positions of legal trust, and rely on their position for their wrong doing. Many good people have found themselves in dreadfull situations, thanks to agents, lawyers, developers, planners and even judges. Any of us could be in the same situation, and obviously many wronged are far from fools, they are victims of cheats though.

All anyone wants is to be treated in a reasonable way, and to be able to trust those in positions we all have to trust, in the process of legal issues when buying property.

If we can all stand together on this, and not blame those wronged or treat them as fools, then we can hopefully all respect each others opinions on the other issues, good and bad. I realise that comments from those of us wronged can and do come over as very negative, but in many cases they are just ugly facts from first hand experience, and certainly not intended to upset anyone.

I really hope we can all work together on improving the lot for everyone involved in Spanish property industry.  If some of us do seem angry, then please try and understand the effect that fighting for justice for many years has, when you know full well you are in the right!

 Goodstich

How you stay reasonable is amazing.

Well said goodstich  :-)

The EOS forum threads give everyone the opportunity to give their point of view on all sorts of themes / issues / concerns. People will naturally have different experiences on which their comments are based. All viewpoints should be respected and appreciated and differences of opinion valued ... 

Personally, I get very frustrated when certain comments and opinions on threads ('is living in Spain that bad' is a case in point) receive quite personal and yes, disrespectful, responses. To be honest, it puts me off even commenting myself in case I also receive a barrage of responses that leave me wondering why I bothered to offer my views in the first instance!

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and we should all be chuffed that people take the time to share their positive and negative experiences so others can take heed and learn.

Goodstitch, Norman answered the question.

So we need "no win no fee" as I see it, or perhaps a mask and a gun. There would only be one choice for me !

Well said Goodstich.

Guslopez. No win no fee would be good but it doesn't detract from the fact that there are many other aspects to the justice administration system, not to mention the query relating to the independence of some judges that compromise those seeking justice in Spain. The problem is much wider than just financial considerations.

Reform is essential in order to achieve consistent justice across Spain and to establish precedents to ensure that developer/bank/lawyer (whatever) abuse is no longer acceptable.

It shouldn't have to depend on the 1000 or so judges who are committed to  political impartiality. Nor should it depend like a postcode lottery whether the court administration in your area is ineffective or not, dependent on the court overloads.

It's incredibly frustrating (understatement) to witness the effects on those caught up in this scenario, us included, so people power is an essential pre-requisite to any solution I would have thought. But it takes commitment, perseverance, a strong sense of moral judgement etc etc to follow this through and for that reason I think Goodstich should be thanked and commended for his persistance and courage, taking the flack as he does, in order to rally support in his mission. Don't give up on us Goodstich 'cos we're with you on this.