Rough justice yet again!

Goodstich:

For the hearing: What do  you mean by 12 months delay? 12 months since lawsuit was entered to Court till  decission being in place?

Court Decission: You say it is not still in place? When was the hearing? Has the developer gone into administration now? I need those data to start with the analysis.

Initially provision 434 of the Civil Procedure Act states that Court decission needs to be in place within 20 days from Court hearing.

I ahve already asked a member of the team to do the statistics on case finished, won and money in clients´ accounts. Hope they canm finish it soon.

Best,

Maria

Hi Maria,

Regarding :  Initially provision 434 of the Civil Procedure Act states that Court decission needs to be in place within 20 days from Court hearing. 

Why then in my case and alot others does this rule 434 not be carried out?

Regards Simon

maria

once our lawsuit was accepted by the courts, the hearing was then set 12 months after that date. Sentence we don't know, but 5 months minimum since our hearing in April this year, and not likely to be until September/October earliest?  Yes the developer has gone in to administration about a month ago. but the creditors have not met yet, so all a waiting game again!

Dear Goodstich:

The fact of an embargo being lost during the long period the Court Decission should have been in palce, makes initially your case interesting reviewing it. But you would have to send documents to us ( or any other lawyer you choose) privately.

Simone12:

The running of Justice administration allow certain delays. Eben though: every case, its attached damages, consequences.. need to be analysed to see if it is deemed a case for patrimony liability of the Justice admionistration. Not every delay is an abnormal running due a compensation.

Sorry, this is off topic, but I made a blunder! 

In the hope that James Tully reads this thread .

Hi James,

You pm'd me and in trying to send my reply I inadvertantly deleted  your message and my reply. Goodness knows how I managed to do that !!!!!   Please would you resend it to me.  Sorry!

Tish

Dear Tish,

thank you for that, but I have still no idea from you or goodstich or Maria what the legal costs would be to risk in total.

no doubt that was part of yours and goodstich's legal advice re. costs before proceeding.

please pm if you do not want to say on open forum, but please ignore if this is pressure too far, no doubt you both have suffered enough without me being a nuisance.

thanks again

Norman

Norman,

I'm afraid I have no idea what the legal costs would be in total for you. I have already told you what our costs were.  If you were to loose your case the Judge could award costs to whom ever you sue, Bank or developer. 

Why don't you find a  good lawyer. They will discusswith you what your options are and their fee scale. You can then make an informed decision. You can also negotiate fees.

Maria, regarding your response re court delays:

"The running of Justice administration allow certain delays. Eben though: every case, its attached damages, consequences.. need to be analysed to see if it is deemed a case for patrimony liability of the Justice admionistration. Not every delay is an abnormal running due a compensation. "

Would you consider there is a case to answer (under patrimony liability) where the actual issue of a provisional enforcement order took 13 months after being petitioned (due to court delays)? Also where court delays resulted in only receiving a term to respond to the developer's appeal some 13 months later? Has your legal practice ever pursued a case of this nature against the Justice Administration or are you aware of any case law in this regard? What would the legal costs be in pursuing such compensation and would the purchaser be fully compensated (i.e. legal costs, interest etc) if it can be proved that court delays significantly compromised their legal battle for return of monies due to the developer going into administration/bankruptcy in the interim? Would this be considered as a last resort fight for compensation, once all the normal legal routes had been pursued?

On another point, where a witness for the developer fails to turn up at the court hearing and then subsequently waives their right to appear, which results in further delaying tactics on the part of the developer, is this a common practice in your experience? Can the developer/witness ever be made accountable under the legal system as it stands now if they are ultimately deemed to be employing a blatant tactic? Are there any appropriate fines for wasting court time in this way to act as a disincentive and stamp out this practice? If so, have you ever witnessed them being evoked?

Ads:

Would you consider there is a case to answer (under patrimony liability) where the actual issue of a provisional enforcement order took 13 months after being petitioned (due to court delays)? Is there any damage you can prove?  Also where court delays resulted in only receiving a term to respond to the developer's appeal some 13 months later? So, did they issue the provisional enforcement or not? Has your legal practice ever pursued a case of this nature against the Justice Administration or are you aware of any case law in this regard? We have never pursued a case like this but yes, we are aware of these type of cases. What would the legal costs be in pursuing such compensation and would the purchaser be fully compensated (i.e. legal costs, interest etc) if it can be proved that court delays significantly compromised their legal battle for return of monies due to the developer going into administration/bankruptcy in the interim? Legal costs are calculated according to sum claimed. Sum claimed needs to ben a effective lost produced by the abnormal running of the Justice administrtaion. Would this be considered as a last resort fight for compensation, once all the normal legal routes had been pursued? Correct, if the requirements for the action are met, clear and sufficient.

On another point, where a witness for the developer fails to turn up at the court hearing and then subsequently waives their right to appear, which results in further delaying tactics on the part of the developer, is this a common practice in your experience? It seems it is being somehow. Can the developer/witness ever be made accountable under the legal system as it stands now if they are ultimately deemed to be employing a blatant tactic? Yes, if you can prove the cause-effect relationship and there is an effective damage. Are there any appropriate fines for wasting court time in this way to act as a disincentive and stamp out this practice? No, there is not, you will have to start a judicial  procedure. If so, have you ever witnessed them being evoked?

As promised: information on cases won and cashed.

The litigation department  ( as a matter of deonthology and  clients´privacy) has prefered to give to me a list of developers and Banks who have already complied with their obligations of paying refunds to our clients. I do hope this will  help you to gain some confidence. I am sure many lawyers in Spain could offer similar lists. The battle is being done.

- CCM ( Caja Castilla La Mancha)

-Orcelis Costa

-Napoles desarrollos empresariales

-ABN- Amro

-Banco Popular

-Banco Pastor

-Banesto

-Sociedad de Garantía Recíproca (SGR)

-BBVA

-Key Mare

-Ros y Falcón

-Promaga

-ACC Seguros

-Asefa Seguros

-San Antonio Properties SL

-CAM

-Banco Guipuzcoano

-Hercesa

-Caja Murcia

Thank you Maria

Sadly we never hear of the cases won  (ref  Suzies post)

Sorry cant agree that many other solicitors have such good results.  Well done and keep this sort of info coming from any good solicitor. It gives some hope.

Thats the sort of questions the likes of Norman may ask. ?If I am to spend on legal fees how good is that solicitor. What cost and how long.

Perhaps this may give a little hope to Norman that a good solicitor may get a result for him and others.

I take it that most cases won are against Bank Guarantees. What would you say about taking on developers and refer to Goodstich44 case

Still think the whole system stinks though Its still going to take more than the efforts of a few good ones.

There needs to be a momentum and it must come from the top down and meet the good ones on the way up.

Hello Maria

Thank you for all the help and information you give to this forum. I was wondering whether you have any statistics of the % of cases with a successful outcomes for the buyer, this would perhaps help people decide whether to pursue or indeed continue any actions already started.

Regards, Poppyseed

Dear All,

keep up the thread and the pressure, it looks like someone may be listening.

 A stop to abusive appeals
 

just as tish had persuaded me that despite the added consumer legislation matters were getting worse because it was being negated by villain lawyers and judges.

Maria may I add my thanks for continuing to watch over us.

Regards

Norman

ps tish I have failed to find the costs mentioned, sorry.

Chimps, Poppyseed, Normansands: Thanks to you three: it is a real pressure and an great challenge to be involved in the legal aid and information to EOS members.

Some answers to your questions below in bold green:

To Chimps:

I take it that most cases won are against Bank Guarantees. What would you say about taking on developers and refer to Goodstich44 case. As you can see in the list below,  there are also cases won against developers in declarative procedures.

In goodstich44 case: I see very high possibilities of his credit being classified as "contra la masa" ( first to be paid, out of creditor´s meeting restrictions) according to the Bankruptcy Act. So it is very good that he acted on time for cancellation and is about to receive a Court decission.

To Poppyseed:

We cannot offer statistics of success in a public site like this as a matter of respect to our deonthological code, but... I will be willing to offer these data to you in a public basis.

Norman, our fee to our Lawyer to exercise our Bank Guarantee ,  was the scale rate (2006) of  approx €1200. Not a cent more.  We won the first case , Bank appealed, we won the second case. Deposit +interest+ legal fees paid to us.  We covered our own expenses to see our Lawyer in Spain.

As in all these cases, it is up to the individual to negotiate a fee. It is, I would say, totally dependent on the complexity of the case and the amount of work involved. 

Norman, there is nothing more that I can tell you.   Hope you understand this.

Regards,

Tish.

Dear Tish,

thank you,

if I now understand that 1200E is a total fee, rather than just an up front opener, then even on my pension I can afford that, since as already mentioned I have not like goodstich been paying a mortgage plus community fees.

My fear of course was that I would get involved in the £100,000 plus scenario that Mike T was involved in.

Best Regards

Norman

The following open letter was sent to Gordon Brown 19 August:

The Spanish Property Scandal Petition, handed in at Downing Street on 12 March 2009 has to date received one short response from your office; that the petition is 'noted' and has been passed to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office for any comments they 'may' have. There has been no response from the FCO since submitting our petition.

With respect Sir, the petition is addressed to you, not the FCO. We have asked for your direct attention, as our Prime Minister, to the issues detailed and to raise them with the Spanish Prime Minister. Can you please tell us what action has been taken. It is difficult to understand how you could have read the petition or even glanced at its accompanying weighty dossier, and allow a response from your office which comes across to petitioners as being, to say the very least, dismissive. You may be interested to read just a few of their comments:

The failure of the British Government to address any of the comments from nearly 1,000 petitioners is wholly unacceptable.'

Petitioners note the British Government's response to the petitions submitted regarding similar property-related problems in Goa, and also Cyprus. We also note the interest and detailed reply given by the British Government to a petition concerning Sandbag and Hesco, a dog and cat in Iraq, and I insist that each one of our petitioners warrant equal, if not more attention. Your reply Sir, which will be made available to all petitioners, is awaited.   Signed..etc

You can read the British Government's response to mentioned petitions here:

Regarding Goa:

http://www.number10.gov.uk/Page20337

http://www.number10.gov.uk/Page19848

Sandbag & Hesco:

http://www.number10.gov.uk/Page20246

Hi Maria

I am sure that many value your contributions more than you realise.

It must be very difficult at times fighting so much corruption however very rewarding to win cases against the run of play.

As you can see there are many that simply want answers .Case laws that form part of court rulings and not a lottery where many lose cases on the same developments only for others to win identical cases.

A system where lawyers,courts, are made accountable for cases like Goodstich44.

Suzie.  Simply remarkable in what you are doing.

Hopefully this thread where many are posting making statements that some dont agree with however not falling out over them may be a very good start.

One side and one move for change on this there  is nothing a argue about. Thankfully those the considered the thread may have run its course seem well on board as it clear they have made every effort in the past hitting brick walls in their excellent efforts

There is a great lawyer. A wonderful Petition and a Platform being E.O.S that  thousands view including powers that can infuence change.  

A fair deal from the law in a Country thats part of the E.U .

Hi Norman ,

Where did you get the idea that it would cost you £100,000+?   That surely is not for Lawyers fees? They are goverened by a fixed scale. 

If you loose your first hearing, then it is up to you ,with good advice from a good Lawyer, to decide whether or not to continue with your case.  The option is, you can always walk away at any time. Then you loose your deposit/s.  Ask your Lawyer upfront  for a fixed 'final fee. Tell them what you can afford, realistically.  Then you know how much you are in for. Finding the right Lawyer is the hardest thing you will encounter, unfortunately.