Rough justice yet again!

Thank you Tish, much appreciated

Norman

Dear johnmfranci5,
 

perhaps a group visit would be worthwhile publicity, but don't you hold the lawyer responsible, when we were looking Aifos seemed to be a bit of a no-go area as an organisation though they seemed to have some good locations.

Regards

Norman

Sorry this is a bit late in replying to the comments about Smiley and Maria, amongst others, however we STILL don't have internet access at home, so my time on the internet is limited!

I did want to make the point though that we had the pleasure of meeting Smiley and he gave us a lot of good honest advice, even though we didn't do any business with him.  Since then he has also sent us many helpful private emails, as well as the advice he freely gives on the public forum.

We have never met Maria, although she too has kindly responded to private emails, again giving us good honest advice.  Both of them contribute much to this forum, and I am sure that anybody who wishes to use their services would find them both professional and helpful.

Regards to all.

Sue

Thanks Suemac... it has been the  work of three years now! Ups.. what a big amount of hours!

It is truly a reward to have that kind of acknowledgment... or is it that I am too tired today?

Dear All,

so both contributors are endorsed.

for me that leaves a problem since they seem to offering opposing advice.

Maria thinks that Spanish consumer law is in place and working.

Smiley seems not to agree, for him the brochure is not king and change is a long way off.

Tish (please let me get it right this time) thinks she was just lucky, things are worse now and would not do it again, believing that goodstich's treatment from Spanish law is more the norm.

goodstich's judge's behaviour seems beyond logical explanation, worse than a lottery.

I blame the lawyers who facilitated the corruption with their "professional" endorsement, others want to hang the developers and agents.

Should one risk one's scarce resources???

Regards

Norman

norman

well i'm with you on hanging the agents and developers!!..........not all of them of course

joking apart, I think there is enough info' about now to steer clear of crooks. The problem to me is still the justice system. Even if you use the best agent/lawyer/developer, if something goes wrong beyond their control and you need the law being implemented fast,  based on common sense right and wrong, then I feel you are in great danger of not getting justice. Until this is dealt with head on by the Spanish government and the changes made clear to all, then I think many potential buyers will just continue not to take the risk?

Hi Norman,

Well, you are right this time!  I consider ourselves very lucky to have got our money back, but we were also the "early bird". + we had a great Lawyer working on our side.  Having said that Why, when the developer said they could not build our property, did they not just hand us our money back?  Not only did we have to go through two Court cases, but the stress & anxiety was immeasurable.  Even if you found a good Lawyer and had the money Norman to persue your case, my personal opinion would be not to consider taking on the developer, unless you can afford to loose more money. ( I am presuming you do not have a Bank Guarantee. Even if you do, you may not be able to exercise it )now  Unless you think you could handle the stress of it all, I would say, don't go there. The more time that elapses, the weaker your case, I would think. Goodstich is a prime example (and I could give you many others) that no matter how strong your case is, your chances of winning are low., because the justice system in Spain stinks. Just my opinion.

Read this:

http://www.variantperception.com/sites/default/files/uploads/Spain_-_The_Hole_in_Europes_Balance_Sheet.pdf

well said goodstich we love Spain, the weather, the people but who do you trust and how can anyone ever trust a legal system that so hopelessly lets peolpe down. i also blame the junta for allowing the situation in the first place. (off topic) I know Banana Beach is not in the new marbella town plan , but the junta only want to compensate residents!!!!! not non-residents   Untill the government wakes up to what a mess everyone is in , Spain has a very large red flag buyer beware stay away

i wish everyone well with there legal cases

james

Another thing to consider when deciding whether or not to take on developer or Bank:

Spains economy is , like many other countries, shot to bits. The Spanish bank's true balance sheets are being exposed..at last. They are desperate to prop up the construction sector. Are Judges going to make the situation worse by making them, (banks/developers) pay back millions of euros to "foreigners" persuing them through the Courts.

This on Justin's newsletter; http://www.eyeonspain.com/spain-magazine/banks-crack.aspxets

Answers on a postcard!

Just to broaden the topic a bit more:

What about some external impacts to the current  status of Courts in Spain?

For instance: how about the behaviour of irresponsible lenders which irresponsibly  allowed  irresponsible builders build and irresponsible buyers buy?? Now some of these buyers ( foreign and nationals) are waiting the long, slow queue of justice. Some of the credit easiness came and infected us  from abroad actually...  but  does not exempt us from risponsability.

It is true that many buyers chose a lawyer to advise them in the purchase but they made it in the middle of a huge irresponsability epidemic and therefore they chose it irresponsably:

I never want to negate the abysmal performance of some irresponsable legal advisors but..... did buyers really care during the real estate boom  about the legal quality of the contracts? or at least as much as they cared about  the finantial potential profit  of the contract?

Cancellation rights? Who cared about them then? They would  never cancel as the property would magicly  go higher and higher in price ( typical behaviour of people within the buble syndrome)

Of course I know many of you were not speculators but people looking for a good oportunity in Spain and with mixed plans regarding the property.  But... do not tell me those happy  years were not  filled up with conversartions about the finacial growth of property in Spain and not a word on Consumers safety or legal quality.

james said

''Untill the government wakes up to what a mess everyone is in , Spain has a very large red flag buyer beware stay away''

yes, it seems everyone can see this apart from those in the position to do anything about it!!

maria

yes people bought because prices were on the increase, who buys when prices are falling?  I agree that more care should have been taken and the boom meant many jumped in to quickly. In the UK much the same happened in our housing boom, but the main difference was that people in the industry on the whole (with the exception of agents) were relied on for their integrity because the laws and regulation were usually implemented when needed. In other words corruption, and lack of regulation was not common place in jobs where legal trust has to be relied on, so people felt the only real gamble was market forces, and  not that those in positions of legal trust and justice would cheat you even up to court room level!!

Because Spain is an EU country, many assumed (wrongly) that they could buy in Spain with similar protection from crooks that we take for granted in the UK. I think very few even dreamed a counrty with so many connections to the UK would ever treat people so badly, or that the corruption would go to the very top and would be virtually thought of as acceptable in Spain.

So yes, some were greedy, some were naive, but I don't think that excuses the Spanish government of allowing such a corrupt system to go unchecked  and unhindered in their wrong doing to this very day, but then if they are all part of it what can we expect?. The resulting mess  in Spain is clear and without change from the top how to they expect to recover?

Goodstick:

I  fully, 100% agree that corrpution of those you place your trust on is the worst. A lawyer needs to be your " alter ego", need to have yours and just yours interests at heart.

There is no other option.

Maria

Goodstich 44 /Maria

About sums is up. Investors may have bought several properties for financial gain only.They may or may not have lost a fortune through lack of the basics in investment rules.

No one would have bought a property to lose money and many havent .There are several ways to judge investment ,financial short,medium and long term may just be one.

Some may have just got caught by a sunny day to much sangria and a good salesmen.

The basic thing each one should expect is that being apart of the E.U the law should in place to protect if someone has been shown to break it.

Should that person that represents the law then abuses that position for financial gain then that should mean a criminal offence and prison. End Of.

We are told the law is in place.  If this is the law thats at the very centre of the past/present and future part of Spain that allows it to be so corrupt then I feel that Spain will find itself in dire trouble in the not to distant future.

SPAIN MUST NEVER BE TRUSTED UNLESS SPAIN SHOWS IT CAN BE TRUSTED.

Until then the full force of the E.U should be used or the E,U itself will be shown to be a toothless and corrupt as Spain itself.

This abuse must never be allowed to continue Those that are involved in corruption must be made accountable by seizure of all assets. Corruption  and the way it has ruined so many lives must never be shown to win 

If the statement is true that only the spanish will get anything from Bannana Beach then ! Switch off the lights on the way out.

Thankyou for that Maria.

  I agree that the one person who  people should have been able to trust implicitly and to act with integrity, expertise and diligence  in the complexity of a property purchase has been corrupt, unqualified and totally unprofessional.

What hope for justice when such lawyers are apparently allowed to continue practising, regulated only by their personal code of ethics or moral  concience? 

Without stringent, effective regulation how can any member of the public be assured the lawyer they choose will be 'fit for purpose' and put the clients interests at the top of their agenda?

Your time and input to this thread and EOS over the past month has been much appreciated, especially since I thought that you were on holiday. Thankyou. 

maria

so true, and not just lawyers but all those in all positions of trust.  If those betraying the trust  are not punished harshly and their victims not compensated quickly by them, then the crooks in the industry at all levels will not be encouraged to change their ways to give potential buyers confidence.

"yes people bought because prices were on the increase, who buys when prices are falling? "

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The winners. Those who analyse and research the most. Usually it is the only thing they do for a living.

There is a lag between the 3 kinds of buyers of about 3-5 years.

1) The winners buy near the bottom in a falling market

2) The wannabe winners buy from the winners when they are selling

3) The losers buy from the wannabe winners when they are selling.

The winners return to the market vacated by the losers.

It happens in all markets, stocks and shares, property, metals etc.

Dear Gillespie,

that would see to make goodstich a Wannabe winner who made a theoretical 100%, only for Aifos to rob him by only offering a property 50% of what he had hoped for, then when he refused to be blackmailed in this way they robbed him again by keeping his deposit.

That surely is "buyer beware" with a vengeance!!!!!!!!!

Surely again even the experienced investor could not cope with that level of corruption????

Regards

Norman

Gillespie

yes of course that works in the right place, but only when the market has good enough potential for improvement.  Falling prices can often indicate disaster looming, not often not a good time to buy. Who really knows when (if ever?) many properties in Spain will get back to prices before the bubble burst?  Huge supply, little demand. Had it not been for the lack of building regulation we all know about in Spain, many of us would have been winners. I bought at a very good time early on when prices were cheap and rising fast. I'm sure there will be a good time to buy again in Spain, but not until we feel we are near enough the bottom of the market and changes are made to regulation/justice and that could be some time away?, despite some trying to talk the market up, by saying ''now is the time''  I still feel there could be a crash to come in Spain, with the big developers failing, and the banks with so many useless assets to off-load or accepting huge losses.

norman

quite right, I could have indeed been a winner, had I not been screwed by the system.