Rough justice yet again!

Goodstich......you are being silly. Picking up your ball and walking off the field is not an adult way to behave. True, your pm was unnecessary but we all lose it sometimes - I finally lost my patience with Norman Wisdom yesterday. But your posts have been amongst the least offensive in terms of personal abuse and it would be sad if you decided to stop all communication.

You cannot see that everyone here supports people who through no fault of their own have been cheated.  We also realise that not everyone falls into that category and for a variety of reasons may have contributed to their own loss. Each case is unique. That's why I think that the demolition orders should be examined individually not all treated alike.

If you look back over this and the other thread with an objective view you will see that the abuse has come from one side only. Our opinions have been distorted and personal attacks made. Language such as 'smart-arse' 'know-it-alls' etc. tell more about the narrow bitter miond of the person using them than it does about the object of the remark.

So....bring back your ball and kick it into play. But let's all stick to the basic rules of civilised discourse and respect others' views, even if we find them profoundly disagreeable.

Goodstich......you are being silly. Picking up your ball and walking off the field is not an adult way to behave. True, your pm was unnecessary but we all lose it sometimes - I finally lost my patience with Norman Wisdom yesterday. But your posts have been amongst the least offensive in terms of personal abuse and it would be sad if you decided to stop all communication.

You cannot see that everyone here supports people who through no fault of their own have been cheated.  We also realise that not everyone falls into that category and for a variety of reasons may have contributed to their own loss. Each case is unique. That's why I think that the demolition orders should be examined individually not all treated alike.

If you look back over this and the other thread with an objective view you will see that the abuse has come from one side only. Our opinions have been distorted and personal attacks made. Language such as 'smart-arse' 'know-it-alls' etc. tell more about the narrow bitter miond of the person using them than it does about the object of the remark.

So....bring back your ball and kick it into play. But let's all stick to the basic rules of civilised discourse and respect others' views, even if we find them profoundly disagreeable.

I've looked through this thread and it's amusing to see some people squabbling like ferrets in a sack.  Even goodstich and norman have turned on each other.  But there's more to it all than that..

It seems from reading this and other threads relating to the property issue that the only persons complaining of injustice are those who bought off-plan. (I stand to be corrected on this but no-one seems to have been involved in the purchase of a completed property).  Some would-be purchasers did not have sufficient funds to complete the purchase and were reliant on a mortgage or even rental income to be able to do so. In most cases a deposit was handed over before a single brick had been laid. Some people were given bad advice by their lawyers. Some claim that the lawyers were corrupt. Some people have been lucky with legal actions against developers and regained their monies, others have been unable to do so because the company had gone bust.

I'm interested to learn the evidence on which corruption is alleged. That is a very serious allegation -easy to make but not so easy to prove. If anyone has hard concrete evidence of corruption - evidence, not suspicions - then it should be handed over to the authorities with copies given to Spanish MPs, UK  MPs, MEPs and of course the press/media.  Has anyone actually done that, I wonder?

Companies go bust leaving creditors all over the world, sadly. We too had experience of losing money through bad debt when in business. We decided that going through court was a waste of time and money so whenever possible we took direct action to recovery our property as by law we had a lien on the expensive parts we had fitted. We once 'removed' from a carpark a vehicle -an HGV - on which over £4000 of work had been done. The owner, an account customer, complained, the police did nothing and we kept the vehicle as the owner just didn't have the cash to pay our bill and had the work done knowing he couldn't pay.

Now....you obviously can't remove a house or apartment you've paid or part-paid for. So what can you do?   I would say forget about petitions.  I've been a local Councillor and seen the fate of petitions signed by tens of thousands of people. Sadly, they are largely ignored.  Some people have decided against paying expensive lawyers (why would you do that though if you believed the whole system to be corrupt?) as they realise they would either be throwing good money after bad or left paying a mortgage on a property with negative equity.  If your developer has gone bust and there is no impropriety involved, give up. There's nothing to be reclaimed.

Buying off-plan presumably in an urbanizacion involves huge risks and not just with issues of trust or soundness of the developer. You literally have no idea what the finished project will look like and as for judging its ambience......that can only be done when their are other residents who will have set a 'tone'.  You could well complete your purchase only to find that many other purchasers are 'families from hell'.  You might find that you have to pay higher community fees or suffer a withdrawal of amenities/services because of insufficient funds in the community budget due to people defaulting on their fees or not enough apartments sold. All in all, off-plan is one hell of a gamble.  If you have the money, why not buy a completed, legal house?

Being realistic I would say that some people will never get their money back as some posters here have realised and come to terms with. Some people with funds to pay good lawyers, determination, a good case and a solvent company to sue may stand a chance of getting their money back.  Others will be left to ponder whether they may or may not have been just a tad imprudent. But in business there is always risk. We had our hundreds of account customers checked  -they had to approach their bank to ask them to give us confirmation that they were good for,say, £2k a month.We also took up other trade references. Standard commercial practice. But even honest, well-run businesses can suffer a reverse of fortune through no fault of their own and can take o0hers down with them. Not all people who have lost money in Spain have done so through corruption and deceit.

But the problem does seem to be centred largely if not solely on off-plan purchase schemes. These are in essence Ponzi schemes and need to be approached with extreme caution.  I once sat next to a couple on a flight to the UK who were returning from a trip to discuss an off-plan purchase with a developer. They didn't know, until I told them, that they would have to pay substantial community charges on their piso. No-one had told them. But they should have done their homework and found out themselves.

PS.  I have reread my post and can find nothing which could be construed by any reasonable person as offensive or insulting. Which doesn't mean it won't be seen as such, of course...

This message was last edited by praguepix on 25/03/2010.

I like your train of thought Praguepix..........Vigilantes.

Don't get mad......get even, an eye for an eye, etc.

Anybody know of a hitman that can take out a corrupt property agent?  I can give a name and address, and will pay a "reasonable" amount to see justice done. Goodstitch...if your not posting, you must have some time on your hands?

I like your train of thought Praguepix..........Vigilantes.

Don't get mad......get even, an eye for an eye, etc.

Anybody know of a hitman that can take out a corrupt property agent?  I can give a name and address, and will pay a "reasonable" amount to see justice done. Goodstitch...if your not posting, you must have some time on your hands

If I were wronged and had the law on my side I would certainly not ask someone else to do my dirty work.   So vigilantes....no. The very fact that in the instance I described the police declined to intervene on the customer's behalf speaks volumes. But if we had allowed the general public to know that we could be so easily ripped off -the idiot whose lorry we 'recovered' was overheard boasting in a pub that 'he wasn't going to pay us - clever or what???' - then an awful lot of our employees might have been tempted to be a little more physical as no enterprise can last if constantly doing work for which they don't get paid.

I had a bad experience with an incompetent lawyer in the UK but got redress via the Law Society. Sadly it seems that there is no similar body in Spain so dodgy lawyers can get away with murder.

Have you thought of asking goodstich and stormin' norman to help you get revenge?   They sure are nursing mighty grudges, justifiably so, in their opinions.

By the way, Smiley's posts are excellent. Objective and informative.  He got the same vindictive personal abuse tfrom the same two or three posters hat I got on another thread when I dared to venture a similar opinion.  And no, I'm not on his payroll, never met him, never bought him tapas, beer, wine, tarts etc..or been bought anything by him.

This message was last edited by praguepix on 25/03/2010.

I'm interested to learn the evidence on which corruption is alleged. That is a very serious allegation -easy to make but not so easy to prove. If anyone has hard concrete evidence of corruption - evidence, not suspicions - then it should be handed over to the authorities with copies given to Spanish MPs, UK  MPs, MEPs and of course the press/media.  Has anyone actually done that, I wonder?

Praguepix, you've not been around  on this forum long enough to know  just how much has been done to uncover and report the corruption that has gone on ,especially in Southern Spain.  I personally have done a great deal of work on it, and then there is the Spanish Property Scandal petition. Have you no knowledge of that? There was also a petition set up on the Government website. 

I personally have done radio, television and newspaper interviews.   Our case was reported in The Sunday Times, BBC News 24 with Sarah Pennells, and  a report in the Evening Standard. I was asked to go on the Trevor McDonald program and I did a long interview with Granada but this was not aired as  our  Court case was by then in progress (which we won) .  Our case was also reported in El Pais as was our current case where we sued the original s*** Lawyer, from a prominent Marbella law firm and WON!. As always happens, they appealed and we are still awaiting the appeal case 16 months on.      Apparently, our brilliant current Lawyer  said that as far as he knew this was a first, where the Judge condemned the Law firm for malpractice,not acting in our best interest especially as we were foreigners.

You don't have to dig deep for evidence of corruption.

Praguepix, apologies that you thought my post was serious. It was my (obviously) bad attempt at raising the tone of the forum, and bringing in a little humour.

Dave

Apologies accepted, Dave. Just don't give up the day job.The problem is that it's hard to distinguish the comedians from the straight guys on this thread.

Tish....I have NEVER denied that corruption exists in Spain.Your efforts are seemingly achieving fruit - you have evidence of malfeasance and  have brought it to the notice of the wider public.  You are merely proving my point, which is that each case should be treated on its individual merits or lack of.

What I find less acceptable is the attitude adopted here by a few people that corruption, fraud, deception, bent lawyers and property developers etc.etc. are the defining characteristic of the Spanish property market. That is not the case. However many thousands there may be who have been true victims of anything other than their own gullibility, many many more people of all nationalities have purchased properties of all types with no problems at all.  A few people have become so adversely affected by their bad experience that they find it hard to believe that anyone could possibly think otherwise. Their standard modus operandi is to ignore reasoned discourse and to insult people who dare to post anything which disturbs their view of themselves as victims.  On this point, I must say that I am surprised that you could in anyway defend goodstich for posting such a disgraceful pm to someone he has never met and who has written not one single word of abuse directed at him. Pitby had every right to show anyone who had not already realised what kind of pond life can lurk in the depths. If anyone sends me such childish bile I will not hesitate to publish it for all to see.

I wish everyone well who has experienced real fraud and deception. Hopefully you will get some restitution. People who were merely gullible and took a gamble I am not so sorry for. If your life savings are so precious it behoves you to take better care of them. If you believe in the free market you accept risk. You really cannot expect taxpayers whether Spanish or British to cover your mistakes. That to me is pure socialism.

I'm wondering how long it will be before we see similar posts to some here appearing on emigre forums in Turkey, Bulgaria and even Brazil. Already the tempting adverts are appearing....cheap flights to view the site where your 'dream home' (often a cramped little apartment with as much privacy as a Salford council block - cue for outrage from Salford council tenants )  The inexperienced and gullible will throw all caution to the wind, hand over money to people and companies of whom they know nothing for a non-existent commodity - and we are talking homes here,not tv sets and microwave ovens.and then when the market bombs or people are less than honest they will blame the country rather than take an objective view of their own conduct..

The truth is this: a free market involves risk. A canny purchaser takes all steps available to minimise  this. Unfortunately however not every one in business or the professions is honest and straightforward.  This has obviously been your experience and I sincerely wish you well and admire the energy you have put into helping others in similar situations.

Having made that clear, could I ask you to answer two simple questions with an equally simple negative or affirmative?

Question one: have the majority of property transactions in Spain been successfully completed?

Question two: were some people gullible and failed to exercise due diligence in their rush to get their bargain 'dream home' in the sun?

Because those are the chief points I have endeavoured to deal with in my many posts on this topic.  If you answer them in the affirmative, there is nothing over which we disagree.

Praguepix, you've not been around  on this forum long enough to know  just how much has been done to uncover and report the corruption that has gone on ,especially in Southern Spain.  I personally have done a great deal of work on it, and then there is the Spanish Property Scandal petition. Have you no knowledge of that? There was also a petition set up on the Government website. 

No offence but I don't look upon everything  I read on this or any other such forum as definitive or authoritative. I tend to look elsewhere for hard evidence and serious background information.

You don't have to dig deep for evidence of corruption.

That's an interesting comment which begs a lot of questions. If the corruption were so easily detectable would more people not have been deterred?   It wasn't, which is why intelligent cautious people were suckered. On the contrary, practised and established corruption is often very hard to detect. That's why in the UK the question as to whether the jury system is adequate for the handling of cases of complex financial fraud is under discussion.

Question one: have the majority of property transactions in Spain been successfully completed?

Off plan, I would say NO. (this is the most common problem on many Spanish forums) I cannot answer for "pre -owned" properties.

Question two: were some people gullible and failed to exercise due diligence in their rush to get their bargain 'dream home' in the sun?

Yes of course. That is the case in many things in life. I am staggered at some cases I've read about on some forums.

Because those are the chief points I have endeavoured to deal with in my many posts on this topic.   It's not that black & white. If you answer them in the affirmative, there is nothing over which we disagree.

 I am struggling  to understand your viewpoint on this. In 2003, at the height of the Spanish property boom, the corruption was not  in the open. The White Whale and Malaya cases had not come to light.  There are details that I could tell you about that are too long winded for me to tell you about here. My "spoken" word is far quicker than my "typed" word.

Edited to say. Most of the cases that are ongoing stem back from the years 2003-2005. Insiders will say, that bribes were part of the way of life in Spain. That may have been OK then until the authorities decided it was no longer OK to bribe the Mayor to get planning applications through.

As for what goodstich wrote in his pm, whilst I don't condone it, it was no worse than has been said by some openly on this forum .  As for  malicious pm,s  I was personally threatened by someone who had a vendetta against me (long story) .He said he had all of my personal details!! I had to go exdirectory, but couldn't move house. Very scary. Justin banned him. Goodstich knows who that person is! 

Pitby is no saint and  has IMO, been equally rude..... but let's not go on about this topic. Goodstich apologised profusely  to her and Pitby remains silent.

"
 

This message was last edited by Tish on 26/03/2010.

Paguepix, I am still uncomfortable with the way you throw around the term gullible. Not all sufferers were property developers who saw a quick buck and went for it. Many were people who thought they were entering into an honest transaction to follow their dream. They were let down by crooks and charlatans.

They were as gullible as those who invest their money in a pension fund that subsequently finds it is heavily invested in a Bernard Madoff fund, or similar. As gullible as a person who saves their money in a bank or building society account, on the asumption it will be secure. Generally all well regulated financial industries.

However there are cases where disaster strikes, and often these result in a government bail-out. Perhaps we should all keep our money under the matress and only use cash transactions? 

Instead of another edited post,  in our case, our apartment was never built. Our lawyer contacted us to say they had had a meeting with the developer to say they could not build it as the BL had been revoked 1 month & 4 days AFTER we paid 100,000 deposit.  You would expect, under those circumstance, the developer would turn round and give us our money back. NO. Instead, they issued, 15 months after we paid our deposit,  a POST DATED Bank Guarantee. ie they would keep our money for 3 years!!!  The only way the Bank gave a BG was because the developer had to pay millions of euros into the bank to cover them. We therefore had to sue the bank costing a lot of money, and a lorry load of stress. We eventually, found a brilliant Spanish Lawyer. Maria de Castro knows him and described him as" inspirational."  It took two court cases  to get our money as they appealed the first one where the Judge awarded that we should be paid back. On a bright note that only took 10 months once we got a Court date. Now it takes years. People in the same scenario as ourselves were not so lucky. Once so many cases came to the fore, Judges were bribed! The second phase of this development was built, and was declared illegal. Only a few apartments have completed . The original planning consent was for 12 villas. 196 apartments were built.  From the deposits on the 1st phase that was not built 6,000,000 euros were taken in deposits!

Apology accepted, Goodstitch.  (Is that okay for you Tish?)  I had in fact remained silent because I didn't want to highlight the event again, after the thread seemed to get back on track.

"As for what goodstich wrote in his pm, whilst I don't condone it, it was no worse than has been said by some openly on this forum" - so basically you are justifying it.

"Pitby is no saint and  has IMO, been equally rude."  I have never professed to being a saint, although I would like you to point me to where I have been 'equally' rude to any person on this forum, or any other.

 although I would like you to point me to where I have been 'equally' rude to any person on this forum, or any other.

Hmm,............. lets start with your avatar!   (no time to trawl all your posts Jan)

Seriously,  if one makes an apology, it's good to know the offended person accepts it. Hopefully, all this unpleasantness over pm's will serve as a lesson to everyone not to abuse the pm facility. As I said Jan, I do not condone goodstich's pm.

Praguepix.

The Rough justice thread by its very title is about just that, and the debate rages presumably around those issues where rough justice has been identified and witnessed first hand. It should not be for those that wish to discuss these issues to have to constantly defend themselves against the fact that yes of course there have been many successful transactions, and of course there maybe some who "were gullible and failed to exercise due diligence in their rush to get their bargain 'dream home' in the sun? " and of course there are thankfully happy souls in Spain relatively content with their lot.

To remind people of that fact on a topic of rough justice thread tends to alienate by distracting the debate away from fiding solutions and be divisive (maybe not intentionally but unfortunately the emotive nature of injustice tends to receive that reaction and is perfectly understandable). All we want are solutions to some genuine problems, to gain justice, to hopefully prevent others from falling into the same trap, and to seek reform where it is necessary.

You have identified that you are doing your own bit by discussing this with MEP's and for that I say thank you. You are doing something pro-active and I would hope that you will feedback to us all how you get on in that regard (please  ).

I hope you agree that just because others have failed in the past in other countries or that there are worse scenarios elsewhere etc, is no argument for not vociferously seeking reform in Spain given the injustices we are witnessing right now. To make comparisons elsewhere can be perceived by some as being disruptive to the thread (and maybe again divisive). It's all too easy to be distracted by issues outside of this scenario and essential to keep focused on the Spanish issues for them to be resolved, and I thank Tish and Suzie from the Spanish Property Scandal petition for all that they are doing in this regard..

I think what those who have genuinely witnessed injustice in Spain are after is to focus closely on Spanish issues and try and get people to work together on this to achieve reform and justice, and not be divisive, as people power is not something to dismiss lightly.

Personally I think we have to stop ourselves from being over defensive, not look to personalising issues but analyse from a different and open minded perspective. Easier said than done however.

Don't know if  I've explained this well enough or if this sounds too preachy then I apologise in advance!!!!

 Dear All,

she can be a bit of a pain and a bit silly in her enthusiasm, but she most certainly did not deserve the enraged pm, but it was a good apology and it is pleasing to see it accepted. She may even be an angel in the flesh but some of her posts had a sting or two with an absence of politeness.

the court success is wonderful, can it be detailed to those of us who may be encouraged?

I suppose it would be true to say that the majority of urbanisations were built off-plan, certainly during the boom times.

Many people only completed after they discovered that their dissatisfaction would not be legally recognised, or that recognition would be too expensive to obtain.

Nevertheless I suppose again that success was in the majority and not at all risky, known agent, developer, builder, architect etc. and even trusted lawyer.

This particular idiot was even shown some handsome examples of similar built projects.

I really don't know quite what to make of this strange "bird" who condemns so many as gullible idiots and then denies her own posts as misunderstood.

However I thank her for the information in her posts, if not the insults.

Self experience can mislead and my present house was off-plan but generally satisfactory with a financial incentive for living on a building site for a period and a further period whilst landscaping matured.

Yours in condemned stupidity.

Regards

Norman

Tish, ads and Dave:  we agree!!!   The reason I insist on the fact that some people were architects of their own misfortune is very simple.  It would be wrong to put people who like Tish and others have been cheated by crooked lawyers etc. in the same category as people like the pair of hapless would-be bar-owners in the 'Paradise Lost 'programme. Not every case is alike - even in the cheated and conned category -and if you act as if they are you will run into trouble big-time when people who are paid to examine these things on behalf of lawyers etc. get stuck in.  The silly cases will be held against the others as an excuse to do nothing. I've seen it happen when cases have been lumped together. It's unsound practice.

Until recently I was involved in case work in the UK, usually with a legal dimension and I saw how important it was to get the facts of each case absolutely clear.

I was reading today about the Aifos insolvency proceedings which seem farcical to say the least.  Also, in SUR, a piece about a developer who got permission to build an augmented number of apartments in an over-55 complex in return for including a self-contained care wing as part of the project.. Needless to say it will never be built as the developer had run out of funds.  It's hard to know what to blame this developer for as not all the facts of the case were reported but it was a disaster for the many people, mainly Spanish, who had parted with their money.  I sympathise 100% with these people.

Ads.....yes, I'll bend the ear of any MEP or MP for that matter whom I may come across when I'm in the UK at a Conference next week.  Don't hold out too much hope, though. The two MEPs  I've contacted have shown zero interest. The fact is as you no doubt know that the EP has 'nuisance value', not much more.  That doesn't mean that our representatives shouldn't shift their a****s on our behalf, of course.  Many Brits here have no vote so our Westminster crowd aren't going to put themselves out either and sympathy from people living in the UK will be minimal.  I can't think of anything else that could be done - Tish seems to have most of the angles covered.

There are encouraging signs, though. Action has been taken to prevent the worst excesses recurring and the publicity given to the lost deposits may have encouraged future buyers to be more exhaustive in their researches than some were in the past.  The off-plan concept may never fully recover from the fiascos and imo that's a good thing as I can't help feeling that the whole idea of parting with money for something to be built at a future date does NOT appeal to me.

Norman Sands...shouldn't you be trawling through my posts on the other thread looking for the evidence I've asked you to produce to substantiate the things you've accused me of?   For you to criticise anyone for anything they've posted as having an 'absence of politeness' shows you have more front than Harrods!   You who once told someone they were posting a 'load opf crap!!!!'.And yet again you distort the truth: where, pray, have I condemned 'so many' as gullible idiots? Proof, please. And where have I 'denied my posts as misunderstood'? (whatever that gobbledygook means).   I want dialogue with serious people.

I would be willing to join in with anything practical if I would be of use but before doing so I would like much more background information so I know exactly what has gone on and gone wrong. I do have some experience of campaigning and political procedures which could be of some small use. Most of my adult life has in fact been involved in community issues of one kind or another.  I have asked before for website addresses where I can find documentation relevant to cases. If anyone can point me to them I would be very grateful.

You might start your research here:-

www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

I'm quite sure that Suzanne would appreciate the help of

someone with the expertise you describe.

Thank you Sandra. I will print off and peruse. I'm not sure that my 'expertise'  - if you'd call it that   stertches to dealing with Spanish legal stuff but I would like to know what the background is. My field is more UK planning law.

But I'm willing to learn and listen.

Praguepix, many thanks for your posting.

One matter I would wish to bring to your attention is the impact that delays within the Justice Administration system in Spain is directly having on individual cases.

Significant Court time delays are without doubt proving to be of great benefit to developers who live in the hope that clients will be significantly compromised in the interim, as developers manipulate their liquid assets etc in their attempt to avoid meeting their financial obligations from clients’ first instance case wins. It takes an inordinate amount of time to effect enforcement orders and developers are “playing the system” by going to appeal (often unwarranted appeals) in order to give them time to effect such tactics. There are instances where the developer in the interim illegally asset- strips even after an enforcement order is in place, and the costs to take on a civil/criminal proceedings then becomes prohibitive (unless a group action is possible, and even then it's a costly process).

In my opinion there should be strict legal time constraints placed upon courts to ensure that cases are administered within realistic timescales which will hopefully act as a disincentive for developers to place an unwarranted appeal. (This will require government funds however to ensure that sufficient manpower resources are in place, or that the legal processes are handled more efficiently and effectively, say for instance through the use of improved technological advances, as Maria mentioned in one of her blogs).

Also Judges should use their power to identify where cases that go to appeal in this way are truly warranted, and not just a ploy to drag out the process (i.e. developers manipulating the system). Clients with First Instance case wins and/or provisional enforcement orders in place should neither have to be compromised by being judged way down the pecking order in terms of preferential creditors when developers go into administration, as appears to be the case at present. Again another abusive ploy used by developers who live in the hope that clients within the system as it stands now, are led to believe that they will “never regain their monies”, or if they do so, that the timescales involved will ultimately prove prohibitive.

Until this scenario is addressed however, there should be some form of compensation fund established (set aside from Spain’s EU budget, as suggested in the Auken report) to ensure that justice prevails for those who through no fault of their own are the unfortunate pawns within an ineffective Spanish justice administration system. We should no longer have to read advice that it is not in your longer- term interest to fight for return of your monies. What sort of justice is that? No justice in my eyes.