Rough justice yet again!

Hi Tish

Depresssing, frustrating, annoying - tell me about it!!

It seems that many Lawyers have a very poor understanding of the Law and the Judges very rarely apply any sort of common sense to their Judgements.

Many of the Judgements based on 'technicalities' in favour of the corrupt developers and negligent Banks are simply beyond belief.

Maria says please do not consider Spain to be a lawless territory.  In many respects it is not.  BUT.....the Real Estate and Construction industry with the help and support of the negligent Banks has been a law unto itself over the past decade.  Many Lawyers have also been negligent and at the very least have turned a blind eye to the corruption and at worst have been complicit in the corruption.  I am sorry to say that this particular sector of Spain appears to have been operating in a totally unregulated and lawless fashion.

I am pleased that the Judge re-adjusted Banco Popular's legal fees, but the point is that even with a 'no win no fee' deal should you lose the case you will have to pay the legal fees of the 'victorious' party, however poor you feel the Judgement is.

If these Judges continue to take the sides of the Banks and Developers on ridiculous technicalities then this will send out a message to the next wave of developers that it is OK to ignore all your legal obligations and then we will have another 10 years of injustice.  And......another 10 years of a Lawless real estate and construction sector.

Unfortunately it appears that Mr Zapatero has no interest in correcting this shocking situation.

Keith

Keith110

no, I don't think he has any intention of putting things right, nor the whole court/justice system, which is why think the only answer (if there is one?)  will probably only come from outside of Spain?.  I don't think Zap' will even listen to the ugly truths, that alone act on them?

Personally, I do not think a no win/  no fee concept would work in Spain.

As an example, in our case against the Lawyer, we won. We wanted 70% of our fees back ( based on the 30% deposit we paid. We thought like for like was fair). The judge awarded us 60% which meant we had to pay our own legal fees. Had we got 70% we would not. That is my understanding . Carlos asked us if we wanted to appeal this for the full amount + fees.. We said no, as we felt better take that than  maybe lose. To our amazement the Lawyer appealed. We again won this second hearing and this time we were awarded full amount + interest and legal fees.  The Lawyer has exceeded the due date of payment!!

Edited again to say...this goes to show what shite, corrupt company this law firm is...and they  can still practice like  marauding sharks.
 

Edited to say, great post Keith.

This message was last edited by Tish on 08/07/2010.

Maria - this would not happen in the UK!  If my court cases were in the UK I would complain directly to the law society and unlike the Colegio de Abogados in Spain they would reply.

A UK bank would not lie in court in order to fraudulently hold on to money which they have pledged to pay out if a contract is breached. If my bank guarantee was issued by a UK bank, they would honour it.  If there was a problem I could go to the FSA or to the Bank of England who would intervene.

All of the banks in Spain are regulated by the Bank of Spain.  As you know, a petition was sent to the Governor of the B of S with approx 220 signatures on it.  The petition was ignored.

Sharon Bowles who is an MEP for SE England wrote on my behalf to the Governor who declared that he was unaware of the problem.

Spanish banks have banking code  the same as we do.  They seriously violate that code and get away with it. All that is needed to sort hundreds of these cases is a directive from the Governor of the Bank of Spain to all banks and insurance companies that they will be closed down if they issue guarantees and do not honour them. This would take a massive burden off the courts.

Such cases in the UK would be resolved without intervention fom the courts.

Very articulately put Mike.

Mike

I am in the UK and have just been out to the Bank.  While I was out I was thinking more about this situation and I have to say that most of what I was thinking was actually said by you in your last posting - which I have only just read when I returned to the office!!

I agree with what you say:

In the UK a complaint about a Lawyer would be dealt with by the Law Society - and yes they would reply.

The UK banks are not squeaky clean, but I could never imagine the Bank Guarantee issue happening here in the UK - if it did then as you say the customer/purchaser would have the right of complaint to the FSA and/or the Bank of England.  If the FSA upheld the complaint then the Bank would be forced to comply with the decision.

But......again in the UK I am 100% sure that if the BG issue had happened here it would not have been allowed to go on for so long and affect so many people.  It would have been tackled by the FSA, Bank of England or the Serious Fraud Office who on their website say:

"Our aim is to protect society from extensive, deliberate criminal deception which could threaten public confidence in the financial system.  We investigate fraud and corruption that requires our investigative expertise and special powers to obtain and assess evidence to successfully prosecute fraudsters, freeze assets and compensate victims"

I wonder if there is a Spanish version of the Serious Fraud Office??  If there is then the Bank Guarantee issue is certainly something that would fall within their remit because it has been an EXTENSIVE, DELIBERATE CRIMINAL DECEPTION WHICH HAS THREATENED (make that DESTROYED) PUBLIC CONFIDENCE IN THE SPANISH FINANCIAL SYSTEM!!!

Sadly I do not think that a body with such powers exists in Spain.

Instead we have the Banco de Espana - and as I posted on Maria's blog a few weeks ago in response to her Legal Tip 301 - WILL FIN-NET HELP............................:

The problem with the Banco de Espana complaints service is that:

1. It does not accept complaints that refer to transactions or events dating back more than 5 years - Due to construction delays etc I would imagine that many of the LEY 57/68 issues date back almost 5 years already, if not longer.....

2. It does not accept complaints that are subject to legal proceedings or court litigation - So the complaint to the BDE must be made BEFORE the legal action commences. This causes yet more delays.......

And the biggest problem with the Banco de Espana complaints service is:

The reports of the Complaints Service are not binding for institutions

Therefore, even if the Banco de Espana upholds the complaint in favour of the consumer, the Bank, Savings Bank or Financial Entity are under no obligation to adhere to the report of the BDE.

This is the problem - there does not seem to be any regulatory body in Spain who have a firm control over the Banks or Savings Banks and whose decisions are binding on the Bank.

I agree with Mike that the Spanish courts are overloaded with these Bank Guarantee related cases, when really very few of them need legal intervention.  But the Banks are happy to hide behind the legal system - they know that the legal costs and delays are prohibitive for many purchasers however strong they may feel their case is.  So the Banks probably work on the basis that if they challenge most Bank Guarantee executions then probably 50% or more of the purchasers will simply walk away.  The Banks know that at worst they will get a mention in the complaints section of the Banco de Espana annual report - but who reads that anyway??

So where is the punishment?  Again we go back to the fact that the Real Estate and Construction business assisted by the Banks is a totally Lawless industry and no regulatory body in Spain, including the Government has the desire or guts to stand up and put an end to the misery that is being suffered by thousands of innocent 'victims'.

As I have said before LEY 57/68 is a very good law and gives indisputable rights to the purchaser.  The fact is however that Spain has made a mockery of its own laws, by being totally ignorant and negligent with regards to upholding LEY 57/68.

We are asking for nothing more than for Spanish Law, in particular LEY 57/68, to be upheld by the Spanish Justice System in its entirety.

Kind regards

Keith

Dear Ruth

Whilst appalling you are not alone. Many are in very similar situations and have been let down terribly by a justice system (if that's what you call it)  that any third world country could better. Corruption lies at the the very heart of the Spanish legal system.

But I would like to ask you, for the benefit of all follwoing this lively thread, how much this has all financially cost you in legal costs and if as a consequence of all this you have, to add insult to injury, been found liable to settle the other sde's costs or have had to pay any money into court etc.

Also, with the benefit of hindsight, do you think you might have been better completing, if that was a possibility at the outset?

Also has the constitional court hearing taken place yet or is that court as backlogged as the rest?

What advice would you now give to someone contemplating legal proceedings in Spain?

Best of luck and I hope someday you do get your money returned.

I look forward to Ruth's response to your post Faro.  I know it has been a very stressful experience for her.

re. hindsight....who went to that university of life?  

Tish,

This thread appears to be that university and I for one am immensely grateful for all the education.

Moving on......

So wonderfuly and eloquently put Ruth and Keith. Those who question peoples' perception of the Spanish Justice System cannot fail to be impressed by your analysis of the morally indefensible situation that's occuring here.

Their narratives alongside others should be lifted and posted to our own leaders, to those in positions of responsibility to effect change, to the mass media, to the Court of Human Rights? It's a disgrace.

To me the only obvious way would appear to be an EU compensation fund to ENFORCE justice (as suggested within the Auken report,), so long as the Governor of the Bank of Spain issues no directive to address the Banks' obligations, or the Spanish Government continue to turn a blind eye to the "lawless" behaviour from Judges' who demonstrate partisan judgements via the use of "rediculous technicalities". Is there any way to step up the profile of the Bank scenario to the mass media? Does the scale of this now warrant a serious (not hype) Panorama or newsnight expose and debate?

Maria I understand your concern also but until these issues are addressed and recognition is given to the vast numbers of people affected by this behaviour, then it is inevitable that the successful judgements will tend to be overlooked. Everyone knows now how developers "play the delaying game", how some lawyers are economical with the truth, how the system as it stands  is riddled with abuse, how some judges demonstrate partisan judgements, and most importantly how the lack of enforcement to follow through successful judgements compromises clients at every opportunity.

Surely it's in all legitimate Spanish Lawyers interests to have the courage to step up to the mark and organise your own protests at what is occuring, to seek reform from within to enable justice to prevail, otherwise the perception of a lawless Spanish Justice System will sadly remain and you will be left with a legacy of unaccountable Bankers, developers (and lawyers). That's like scoring an own goal......

Why should it be so hard to make these Banks ultimately accountable, especially in this economic environment where people are already very angry at their behaviour that has impacted everyone's lives? Surely the general public would back the cause for a regulatory body to oversee injustices of this magnitude. and to make Banks more accountable? On a wider scale, In reality all World leaders should be taking a firm hand and ensure that regulation is administered fairly across the board.

Perhaps this is what we should be encouraging and in so doing the Spanish system would have to come inline?

Ruth, you have so eloquently explained the feelings of many in your post.  Thank you.

The Spanish Property Scandal Petition still sits, with hundreds of others regarding these problems, with the Petitions Committee.  They have been discussing the same property abuses in Spain over & over again for over six years now but have never reached a resolution.  Alongside our petition I created a document that cross-referenced all the developments mentioned with the lawyers & agents involved.  A painstaking task but one which I thought was essential to show the fraud which has been continually repeated by the same parties involved - the 'triangle of corruption'.  After presenting it to Downing Street & Brussels I had it translated into Spanish, & sent it to Zapatero & the King of Spain.  So, they cannot say they are not aware of the facts - many hundreds of pages of facts.

I spent a year  trying to get the International Division of the Law Society in England involved, as they hold many meetings with their Spanish counterparts inn London & Spain.  My last email from them asked that I did not disclose its contents.  Again, what appears to be a great deal of time & effort wasted.

There is so much to be added, but I do question the current encouragement to take banks to court for not providing BGs.  We know how difficult it is getting them to pay up when BGs are in place.  Also, many developers put deposit monies into their private accounts rather than in escrow accounts, which is surely a strong weapon for the banks to use in their own defence.  

As far as embargoes are concerned - it can take at least two years before they even get through the court system; registration, surveys etc.   During which time developers can hide their assets, if they haven't entered liquidation in the meantime. 

On a personal note; 'my' developer was arrested in 2006 & charged with bribary (Malaya case).  Since then, he's been out on bail & has not been tried.  This arrest was directly related to the development I'd placed a deposit on.  But  during this time he was allowed to appeal when I first 'won'.  The Judge concerned did not allow me an embargo.  I finally 'won' again almost a year ago, but he has refused to pay me, as the judge ordered.  And as the courts take no independent action about this; this developer  just carries on as 'normal', obviously thinking he is above the Law.  Seems like he is at the moment.

Keith -  I have tried FIN NET - they will not get involved because the issue has already been the subject of a court case.  Had they got involved earlier I think they would just help you to get the case to court.

There is a European organisation called OLAF.  Their job is to stop cross border fraud in Europe where financial institutions are involved.  I thought they sounded like the right organisation to approach.  They wrote to me to say that they would not get involved.  I called them to question their reply and they told me they would deal with cases which involved public money.  Another blank I'm afraid.

I wrote some time ago to the FCO.  They declined to help.  Sharon Bowles wrote again on my behalf and got a longer reply which said the same.  When Gordon Brown wrote his 2 line reply to the petition which Suzanne must have spent months putting together, he said that he had forwarded the petition to the FCO.  I would call that delegation, suggesting that he intended them to do something more than just file it.  I don't know if Suzanne has followed up with a letter to the FCO, but think that we now need to bombard them with letters asking what action they propose to take.

I have also approached the Serious Fraud Office at Scotland Yard, but no help there either.

I really admire your resolve over this situation Mike,  along with Keith, Ruth, & Suzie. 

It's incredible to me that those in a position to make the changes could read this thread alone and ignore the lies and injustice that many of us are facing, let alone the petetions and masses of evidence pointing to corruption and fraud and the hopeless lack of regulation throughout  the whole system, and worse still the hopless justice system that often ends up being no better than the crooks we face in the first place. 

Is there nobody apart from Marta willing to help us fight for what is so obviously right, without having to resort to years more of costly litigation (if we could afford the time and money?) in a justice system that can't be trusted to do the right thing anyway?

We have to believe in power of right over wrong and that justice is the only option, but where next?  Those in the  positions to make the long overdue changes are well aware  now.

Within the recent you tube footage as per the thread titled “Andreasen v Zapatero Round 2”, Zapatero stated, 

"We always stand shoulder to shoulder with, in this case, British citizens who are.... well maybe the wool has been pulled over their eyes in the property sector... but we are working closely with the Parliamentary groups in the European Union- we are doing everything possible, pulling out all the stops to ensure that we better the situation".

Well I would ask Mr Zapatero, how are you pulling out all the stops? Lay down actual proof of the policies and finances being made available to "better the situation" in Spain. We don't want rhetoric, we want specific proof as we see no sign of improvement, in fact we see growing delays within the court system that significantly compromise those seeking justice.

What plans have you put in place to ensure that overstretched courts that are currently handling the thousands of cases being brought against developers and Banks, are adequately administered?

Have you established any time constraints on legal procedures to ensure that successful judgements are followed through within fair and realistic timescales.

What financial procedures have you put in place to ensure that developers cannot put depositors money into private accounts or asset strip in the interim, and that embargos are effective?

Have you established any procedures to ensure that developers and Banks are made fully accountable? (e.g. via the imposition of swift fines for those developers and Banks who refuse to honour their legal obligations, so that monies may be redirected into a compensation fund for those owed monies according to their successful judgements?)

Have you set in place any means of identfying the numbers of cases being brought against developers and Banks, in order to study the magnitude of this problem and allocate financial provision to deal with the growing problem?

Have you established a regulatory body to ensure that Banks are meeting their legal obligations according to the law, and ensure they are made to adhere to the findings of any complaints procedures.

Have you analysed the number of outstanding successful judgements that are still awaiting actual recompense? Have you analysed the magnitude of monies owed by developers and Banks according to the judgements made?

Have you established any monitoring procedure to oversee instances where judges’ rulings have been overturned? Do you have an independent body to identify trends in this regard, to ensure that justice is being rightly administered and is not open to corruption or political persuasion? Do you have procedures in place to fine or remove from office those who have been found to be corrupt?

What success have you had to date to ensure that developers/banks are being made accountable?

Have you established a regulatory body to monitor complaints (as per the evidence gathered by Suzie) against law firms and abusive practices and ensure that they have adequate powers to make them accountable where necessary (again establishing a compensation fund from imposed fines?)

The only time that we will believe the rhetoric is when we see procedures set in place AND ADHERED TO, that ensure those caught up in this administrative nightmare receive their rightful return of monies according to their successful judgements and within realistic timescales.

I hope to send the above to Marta Andreasen in the hope that she may ask such questions within the EU parliament, but will await any further feedback from posters.

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Brilliant!!.   They are the questions we need answers too from Zapatero, and more importantly action in a promised time scale, not false promise or excuses for not delivering now!  Your list is full of common sense measures required for justice, and should be a minimum requirement in any decent system that can be trusted to know right from wrong.

ads,

That's just brilliant, send it to Marta and you could also send it to Roger Helmer giving references to Marta's speech.

They are the sort of direct questions that need answering.

Hi ruth

Good ideaa to remind everyone. I think (hope) most of us cheated have written to just about every MEP by now, but I'll certainly drop a line to Glenis Wilmott and Roger Helmer  with encouraging words.