Rough justice yet again!

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04 Aug 2009 12:01 by MAGICMEG Star rating in Scotland. 546 posts Send private message

Even those with enough money to fight on may still  get nothing .How can anyone even consider buying in Spain  now or in the future when the system is fundamentally flawed and offers no protection or justice if things go wrong .BGs DO NOT DO WHAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO so why will  any one in their right mind ever  risk off plan in Spain again .I think the powers that be in Spain have lost their marbles .

All those kicking themselves for not getting a BG ,Don't . It can  cost at least E 8,000 to execute .No one mentioned that when they were trying to get us to part with our deposits . I used to love Spain but this whole situation is a disgrace I can not believe how badly we are being treated by all concerned . It is as if they now just think they can rip us off at every turn time and time again .Come on  Spain lets see some fair play in all this !!!!!!!!!!!!              

Come on lawyers honesty  honesty honesty  no more speaking in riddles and waffling  .Can any lawyer come on hear and tell us truthfully if we are wasting our money as it looks very much like there is no such thing as justice in Spain .



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04 Aug 2009 12:13 by johnmfranci5 Star rating. 107 posts Send private message

I think it is interesting to see how the Martina Fadesa situation has panned out in comparison to the situation we have here with Aifos. It seems in this case the ordinary creditors / off plan purchasers (asl alreay mentioned) could well be refunded. A vote ofabout 54% of creditors decided this. I wonder why this was ? Perhaps the major bank creditors decided there may be a good chance of the refunded purchasers agreeing to buy someyhing else off Martina Fadesa when it resumes trading I believe in 2010 ? If the reason/motive is know for this feat of Bank generosity then that would be of interest to us all..

We always I feel knew this situation would happen with Aifos and is only the major banks decision to alllow them to carry on this long.

I have not done exact comparisons of major creditor lists as they are not easily obtainable as yet. However I suspect many of the major bank creditors of Martina Fadesa may well be the same Spanish Banks as Aifos. So will  that mean a similar outcome ?

One would imagine Aifos have seeked voluntary administration either in agreement with their major creditors being the major  banks or because the major banks would not extend them any more credit. Now apart from the many hundreds of us who stand to lose a significant chunk of our lifes hard earned savings if not all of it it is the major banks who are standing to lose the most say if for example they let the whole company's assets be sold off for a huge discount to market value. That said given the amount of bailouts they get no doubt the major bankds could write it off.

I did some brief research yesteday and I found that one spanish Bank did buy some of Martina's Fadesa' assets.

I would imagine that anyworth worth having of Afios's could well be of interest to Bank's and major property companies. It could well be NOT in the Banks interest to lety the whole portfolio be sold at a huge discouint to market value because of other knock on impact on an already poor market.

I admit to clutching at straws here as I am searching for a possible reason why it may wll be worth paying the money and joining the creditors list which ironically the less people are on it the better !!

Aifos has such a terrible brand name now and with the fraud cases involving their Directors its hard to see how they could ever resume trading but as we know anything is possible in Spain. I have not heard of 1 satisfied Customer anywhere with Aifos  even for properties they actually did Build. 

 I do take some heart from the fact that if the situation with Martina Fadesa with debts of 7billion euros and 12,000 Clients can be made to trade again and refund off plan creditors then is there a good chance this could happen with Aifos ?

Incideentally the main director of Martina Fadesa took 85million Dividend the year before they went into administration ! I wonder if he has had to pay it back ? Some hope !! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


 



This message was last edited by johnmfranci5 on 04/08/2009.



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04 Aug 2009 13:36 by MAGICMEG Star rating in Scotland. 546 posts Send private message

May be worth asking lawyers I have heard that  any one who has already been given an embargo judgement by a court may be able to get a better position the creditors list ie credit contra de la masa  first to be paid out .Worth looking  into . For some people perhaps    .MM



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04 Aug 2009 13:50 by Lawbird Star rating. 59 posts Send private message

Lawbird´s avatar

Dear Colleague Myra Cecilia,

Developer AIFOS are not bankrupt nor have they filed for bankruptcy as you mistakenly post.

They have sought creditor protection filing for receivership. In other words, they are in administration, not in bankruptcy. I refer you to our blog post on the matter: Developer Aifos Announces it has Gone Into Voluntary Receivership  - 30th of July 2009.

As was the case of high-profile developer Martinsa-Fadesa, going into administration does not equate to bankruptcy.

That is something that will be decided upon at a later date in the ongoing administration procedure by the Mercantile judge.

Yours respectfully,

 

04 Aug 2009 10:31

myra cecilia
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Aifos. According to the BOE. which is the boletin of the state Aifos were declared bankrupt on the 31st of July. they have now through Adminstrators who I am not sure have been named but could find out  from a lawyer who deals in these cases. to make a list of their creditors. They must also list their assets and have two months or three if they ask for an extension to complete the courts ruling. Please look at my post AIFOS AND LAWSUITS for some further infomation.


 

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04 Aug 2009 18:09 by myra cecilia Star rating in Manilva Malaga. 213 posts Send private message

I accept and thank you for your correction. Yes, filing for bankruptcy is not the same as being bankrupt. I wonder if you will agree that this is being done because of iminent insolvency. By the way this is how the Sur newspaper has publishes this information.

Aifos has filed for bankruptcy in a Malaga court. The firm’s biggest creditors are a number of Spanish banks but the most numerous are the purchasers of about 3,000 dwellings, and a brief communiqué from Aifos this week said that its aim was to guarantee construction of the buildings and hand them over to the owners as soon as possible. It also wants to ensure the continued activity of the group and its employees.
The bankruptcy proceedings will be published in the BOE (Officia State Bulletin), after which creditors have a month to notify the court of their claims.
 

I


 



This message was last edited by myra cecilia on 04/08/2009.

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05 Aug 2009 01:41 by myra cecilia Star rating in Manilva Malaga. 213 posts Send private message

LAWBIRD LAWYERS. By the same token that I stand to be corrected and without pasting the posts on this thread that appear to be from your possible clients (they mention your firm by name)  Can you confirm firstly to the forum member that mentions that you say that you can push clients up the creditors list.  Please note my post as to the law and order of creditors. Secondly and more importantly, at least two of your possible clients have quoted the sum of 1.200 euro. Can you please clarify if this amount is for 'provision de fondos' only as we do not know how long the case will take and I am sure that there will be more costs involved. Can you please give a rough estimate of total costs. I think that a lot of people think this quote is for the complete case. It would also be very admirable of your office if you would make the creditors aware that a payout to them depends on what is left if anything after the Banks, tax authorities and the social security system are paid first.  A further point , if the court accepts Aifos as bankrupt what are the creditors position. I appreciate that you will give these answers to all the purchasers who have already suffered a great deal both financially,  physically and mentally.



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05 Aug 2009 01:41 by myra cecilia Star rating in Manilva Malaga. 213 posts Send private message

LAWBIRD LAWYERS. By the same token that I stand to be corrected and without pasting the posts on this thread that appear to be from your possible clients (they mention your firm by name)  Can you confirm firstly to the forum member that mentions that you say that you can push clients up the creditors list.  Please note my post as to the law and order of creditors. Secondly and more importantly, at least two of your possible clients have quoted the sum of 1.200 euro. Can you please clarify if this amount is for 'provision de fondos' only as we do not know how long the case will take and I am sure that there will be more costs involved. Can you please give a rough estimate of total costs. I think that a lot of people think this quote is for the complete case. It would also be very admirable of your office if you would make the creditors aware that a payout to them depends on what is left if anything after the Banks, tax authorities and the social security system are paid first.  A further point , if the court accepts Aifos as bankrupt what are the creditors position. I appreciate that you will give these answers to all the purchasers who have already suffered a great deal both financially,  physically and mentally.



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05 Aug 2009 08:32 by goodstich44 Star rating in northampton. 1636 posts Send private message

myra

please correct me if  i'm wrong, but I assume the 1200e will get us recognised as creditors, which Aifos should be doing anyway by law, but once again the law is so hopeless it wont protect the victims against Aifos not complying with the law, so we have to Instruct a lawyer to do Aifos's work otherwise we are invisable to creditors.

I am interested in your line of thought though. If that 1200e is worthless on its own, there would be no point in us carrying on. We can't afford to pay out any more, and without some assurance of success, I don't think I would if I had the money?

I haven't been told it will definately put us up the creditor ladder, only that we will be on it, and our lawyer will try and secure the best position. In reality though, we don't know if this is just a waste of 1200e or not? and won't  until we have paid the 1200e and the details are in the open.  What choice do we have though?  However small our chance of justice, unless we get on the list I guess it's definately nil?

I really don't have much faith in this route though. I think something out of the box like the Martin Fadesa case of creditors agreeing to pay back those who didn't get property sounds like common sense and the only fair way. . Somebody should be standing up for those individuals so obviously cheated and make sure we are raised to a position in the creditor list where do get justice. We all followed the rules of law and  instructed lawyers to make sure details in contracts would protect our  money, we didn't take huge gambles like the banks, so why are we not treated as special cases?





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05 Aug 2009 09:08 by johnmfranci5 Star rating. 107 posts Send private message

See

http://www.costa-news.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3433&Itemid=122

which lists mostly Banks as the major Creditors but not the amounts.

I agree it would seem we are at the mercy of the Secured Creditors. Ie the Banks. and of course the Judge handling the whole Administration process. I can only hope that they may think it woul not be in their long term interests to see that so many potential purchases of Spanish Property were wiped out. I think it would greatly help our chances if the British newspapers were to give it a lot more (if any coverage). Do the major Spanish banks want to see yet more stories people read saying that thousands of us  have been ripped off ? Who actually now in their right mind would now ever want to buy an off plan property in Spain ?  

Having googled various Aifos major creditors searches there are lots of references to them owing 200 million to Banco Popular and 33million to Banco Pastor. However no specifics yet for other banks. I think when we see the creditor list with amounts presumably that will be public knowledge and following the creditors meeting we will have some idea what chance we have of anything back.  I would say if they owe secured creditors more than two thirds or so of the total amount then I doubt we will get anything unless voted to do so by the creditors meetijng. If the secured creditiors insist on their full  legal rights then we have no chance I think.  That said to refer to my previous post it would not be in these secured creditors interests to risk a large deflationary effect on an already depressed market. I wonder therefore if a debt for equity swap could be what is in the Banks minds. It may well be that they look for another major European Builder as I  would be amazed if  they would want the Aifos name and management to continue given their track record.

Of course it all depends if a major buyer/s comes along and  indeed if Aifos is allowed to continue trading and restructure its debt. As for their statement of wanting to complete on 3000 homes then they cannot have a hope in hell of ever doing that. without major capital which clearly the current secured creditors are not prepared to come up with and that would seem is most of the Spanish Banks.

I suspect this affair will go on for at least 6 to 12 months before we have any idea on the eventual outcome. Who knows if the Bank were actually able to structure a deal where they could work with a reputable  honest Builder who could actually deliver decent quality properties at the original agreed prices and specs then possibly many of the ordinary creditors would look at some proposition involving that ?  Of course any suspicion of any involvement at all of previous Aifos Management could ruin anything like that.

 

 

 

 


 



This message was last edited by johnmfranci5 on 05/08/2009.



This message was last edited by johnmfranci5 on 05/08/2009.



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05 Aug 2009 09:19 by myra cecilia Star rating in Manilva Malaga. 213 posts Send private message

goodstitch44. Morning early bird. I suppose like me you have enough on your mind to get you up and working. My worries are multiplied as I am trying to seek justice for many people. Hence i was, on the forum at 1.30 am etc.

Untill I speak to one of our lawyers this morning I will refrain from answering your question. I regret the mistake I posted yesterday as being to eager to assist especially in such a situation as this. I made an error. Reference bankruptcy which appears to me and many people  the direction Aifos are heading. Then they can carry on under a different name. I do blame the banks also. Just like in the UK no doubt they will declare profits of billions due to the crisis and the payouts they have received from taxpayers money. Please exuse and hopefully accept my attitude. I think enough is enough and this forum is eyeonspain set up to help the likes. I have my eyes on everything, from the Authorities to well. You do have time so speak to your lawyer as well. I know it does not help that receivership has been published to conincide with just about all the lawyers go on holiday. Cynical maybe but the promotors are the banks are closely linked to the authorities dont you think.  I await for the day (not because of my views here) but because of my actions from my office when I get taken to court for libel. Good and could talk then. As the saying goes here, No me tirars de la lengua.



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05 Aug 2009 09:29 by myra cecilia Star rating in Manilva Malaga. 213 posts Send private message

Johnmfranci5 Thank you for your informative post. For the wingers that will say we are being negative. We are not we are seeking and sharing information as once bitten. I was critiscised for one of my posts and told that the people asking the question did not need a lecture. My answer to how long does a court case take was how long is a piece of string.  Also I would like to state that THERE ARE GOOD HONEST LAWYERS OUT THERE. Some work with us and refuse to take on a case where one would throw good money after bad. A lot of lawyers probably wish I would shut up but I wont. I have a member of my bureau on the Aifos case. Besides advising him of the case I have not bothered him since. Why I am not sure which direction to take on his behalf until I have all the facts. If we share all information for the rest of this week I am sure we can all make a desicion.



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05 Aug 2009 09:45 by johnmfranci5 Star rating. 107 posts Send private message

Thanks Myra.

I only hope that once the Administrators have done their job and reported to the Court it is made full public knowledge just how much the Directors have been taking out of Aifos these last few years in bonuses, salaries and dividends. I understand the President is already on bail for 500,000 Euros suggests he is already extremely wealthy. One would hope that if he is indeed eventually convicted of premeditated fraud then all personal assets are seized and returned to the overall fund for Creditors.

I feel it would also be to Spains eventual advantage if they acutally prosecuted a builder for not providing Bank Guarantees (not that they actually much good I understand). 

If Spain is genuine about wanting to appear to clean up its act as I understand th EU wants them to (Ref the Spanish Property Scandal petiion and ensuing EU invovlement) then surley this case is as good a place as any to do it ? Possibly that may be a driving force behind the Martina Fadesa outcome.

As it stands myselff and many other affected Creditors simply have no money left to ever invest in Spain nor would we ever  currently want to given what has happened to us unless we are to be given some major incentive to do so.

 


 



 



This message was last edited by johnmfranci5 on 05/08/2009.



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05 Aug 2009 10:02 by myra cecilia Star rating in Manilva Malaga. 213 posts Send private message

Hello John. Oh if only. I already have heard a whisper about what will happen to the Marbella crowd. Not a lot after all if its a case of if you talk I will talk. If spain wants to clean up their act why do they not start by for example our councillers doing just even their job correctly. Ministers for tourism. Do you know any of the municiple ones.  Work for tourism, ha ha ha. I had better stop now. Anyone that wants any info on the system here please feel free to contact me. I do not want to paint a black picture. I have refused to take part in these tv programmes unless they would let me talk about the solutions that there are to many of the problems as well. I just had a call from someone recently arrived from britain waiting at a certain N police station for their residence. they were told "come back tomorrow. I have just spoken to the nice policeman who told them that and quess what, they are now in the queue.



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05 Aug 2009 10:22 by goodstich44 Star rating in northampton. 1636 posts Send private message

myra

yes, 5am alarm set this morning. The 5 mile cycle in to work certainly wakes me up though!!

I haven't got much to add today. There is alot of sense and much hard work coming from you, John, Magicmeg and a few others. As John says, we are at the mercy of the creditors. Heaven knows when this will all be resolved, or what will be the outcome?

It would seem our lawyers can only take us down the non-privaliged creditor route at the moment. What I find amazing is that despite legal things like BG's, Court Embargo's, sentence already ruled in favour against Aifos, or offers made in court by Aifos, and of course the criminal proceedings against the directors and a wealth of evidence against them!!  none of this is taken in to account by the justice system when things go pear shaped,  and to me makes a mockery of us and our lawyers following any rules or making any efforts to secure our investments should something go wrong.

As has been said, who the hell would trust the system to do right by them in future? Is this the reputation Spain wants for the recovery it so badly needs?





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05 Aug 2009 10:54 by GIBBOSESPAGNA Star rating. 2 posts Send private message

We have just sat for the last hour and half catching up on the threads of the last few days. We posted on the forum last week ...our position the same as most regarding Aifos....bought an off plan development Puerto Golf Las Colinas in 2004 paid deposit and stage payments, no bank guarantee and no building licence ever obtained...therefore no build. We have been fighting to recover our money back for the last few years and were awaiting our case ot be heard in September after having already attended court and a judge agreeing an embargo was required to pay us back what we were owed. ( We had to send E2000 deposit to the court for costs if Aifos were to win our case, which according to our solicitor is unlikely!) Since the administration of Aifos our court case will now not be heard and we have been advised by our lawyer like many to put our names onto the creditors list. So far we have not been asked for any extra money, but reading the posts this morning suppose it is only a matter of time!

Not sure if anyone has seen the news item on a Spanish property sight  July 28th where it appears that 14 of Aifos clients have managed to persuade the public prosecutor to take up criminal action against two of the directors for swindling!

For your information the item is copied below

Spanish Property news July 28th 09

Things have been going downhill for the notorious Spanish developer Aifos ever since its bosses were arrested and charged for bribery in the ‘Malaya’ police operation into municipal graft in Marbella in July 2006. After 3 years of declining business the company has just been forced to seek protection from its creditors, with 1 billion Euros in debts, and now the public prosecutor is trying to put Aifos president Jesús Ruiz Casado, and his wife, María Teresa Maldonado, behind bars for fraud.

The public prosecutor has taken up a criminal action requested by a group of 14 Aifos clients claiming they have been swindled by the developer. A court in Malaga has agreed to hear the case, in which Aifos is accused of making false promises when selling homes off plan without building licences.

Alleging fraud, the prosecutor is seeking 7 years for both Ruiz Casado and his wife, and fine of 16,200 Euros for breaking consumer protection laws. If the claimants win, Ruiz Casado will also have to return deposits and stage payments ranging from 25,900 to 118,000 Euros, and pay each of the claimants 3,000 Euros in damages.

In recent years angry clients have taken out numerous civil cases against Aifos, in many cases leading to court orders for the company return money to clients who never received the properties they paid for. False promises have been standard practise at Aifos, reports the Spanish daily El Pais, pointing out that Aifos now faces 891 legal actions demanding repayments of money.

The difference this time is that the claimants have managed to get the public prosecutor to accept a criminal case against the owners of Aifos – the first time this has happened.

The claimants say that, between 2001 and 2002, Aifos signed sales contracts for projects in Rincón de la Victoria and Torrox, both in Andalucia, claiming that construction was already underway and that delivery would take place within 20 months. In reality Aifos didn’t even have building licences for the projects, and Ruiz Casado and his wife simply pocketed the 590,000 Euros they took in deposits and stage payments, claims the prosecutor.


Interesting reading....I have sent a copy to my solicitor for a reaction. If one public prosecutor has agreed to take action for 14 clients then what about the rest of us.....

 

 

 





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05 Aug 2009 10:56 by myra cecilia Star rating in Manilva Malaga. 213 posts Send private message

TO ANYONE INVOLVED WITH AIFOS. I now can retract my acceptance of making a mistake to any lawyers. Just go a call from my friend. Lawyer (even though he is on holiday he has promised to stay with us on this)

There were two sytems in spain where you went for suspension the pagos or quiebra. Now it is not the case. aifos have gone directly for bankruptcy as they do not have funds to put it simply. So there is no difference call it what you wish. As for being ordinary creditors that is the law again read my post AIFOS AND LAWSUITS Which Lawbird lawyers have kindly pasted on their reply to me. How much will it cost. I would need to know what amount you are owed. Well guys we have a lawyer who will tell it as it is and a specialist in these cases. At least he spends his free time studying and likes what he does. Do we form a group?



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05 Aug 2009 11:11 by myra cecilia Star rating in Manilva Malaga. 213 posts Send private message

gibbosespagna.

Aifos and all the others who built without licence. I ask the question even though I know the answer. I cannot point the finger due to libel. The town halls allowed the projects without licences? The Junta or regional goverments allowed the projects and agreed? Where does it stop. As regards a group I repeat a group yes if the lawyer considers reduction in his fees (Some hate me mentioning this) But the action is taken individually.



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05 Aug 2009 11:39 by normansands Star rating in Kent. 1281 posts Send private message

Dear All,

once again great stuff and magnificent efforts in briefing the forum, hope the lawyers eventually agree on the facts.

However I am concerned that the justice we seek will not ever come until those that facilitated the frauds, THE LAWYERS, are in the dock also, the frauds just could not have happened without them and until they are held accountable nothing will change.

We need the lawyers behind bars where many of them belong.

Regards

Norman

 



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05 Aug 2009 12:29 by myra cecilia Star rating in Manilva Malaga. 213 posts Send private message

Normansands. I understand your feelings especially if you have been on the recieving end of malpractice.  I hope that you will trust me when I say that there are honest lawyers out there. I have to work with lawyers when absolutely necessary. I feel content that they understand and accept my way of working and my insistence of fair correct and honest dealings with my members.



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05 Aug 2009 13:08 by normansands Star rating in Kent. 1281 posts Send private message

Dear Myra,

thank you for all your efforts, I applaud all that you are doing, every support to you.

However the fact remains that thousands of us have been cheated by lawyers fraudulently telling and charging us, for supposed personal services to us, when in fact they were in the conspiracy with the developers and agents all along.

They are nothing but fraudsters and criminals, who should be held accountable, by putting them in the dock and committing them to prison, where they belong. Professional fraud is the worst kind of fraud and should be treated as such with the most severe penalties.

Until they are held accountable in this way and not by just changing lawyers, after the damage is done, THERE WILL BE NO CHANGE AND NO JUSTICE FOR US.

Best Regards

Norman



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