Rough justice yet again!

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05 Aug 2009 14:33 by myra cecilia Star rating in Manilva Malaga. 213 posts Send private message

Nrmansands. I agree that fraudulent lawyers shoul be prosecuted. Let us see if some lawyer would be willing to take his fellow colleague to court. Of course we do have the colegio de Abogados but until that department works on the same as the UK system the Law Society. It is not easy. But you are fighting and passing the word. There may be some good things happening in the near future as I have plans to spread the word. You see I have the knowledge but not the finances needed to carry out what I need to do as yet. This is the outcome of being honest. That is why I keep saying support  EON. We need this forum.



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05 Aug 2009 15:49 by goodstich44 Star rating in northampton. 1636 posts Send private message

myra

we complained to the legal complaints service in the UK. about UK conveyancing who were the first lawyers to rip us off, along with agents OVP. The Spanish lawyer (GV&A) they put us on to, also did nothing to put things right. It was only when we changed lawyer again to our current one (lawbird) that we found out how we had been stitched up by the UK agent, lawyer and of course Aifos. The Spanish lawyer GV&A didn't tell us lies, but they didn't tell us the whole truth either!!

The legal complaints office in the UK said our dealings with UK Con'  were to long ago to take action???.  They then said if we didn't agree, we could take our compaint to the Ombudsman. .......suprise suprise, the Ombudsman went along with the legal complaints office. Much like Spain, it's a sham, they just protect each other.





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05 Aug 2009 20:53 by normansands Star rating in Kent. 1281 posts Send private message

Dear All,

well that is it then, whatever you may think and hope, it is the lawyers who are the arch criminals and they have got us hog-tied.

the corruption in their ranks is endemic and they are determined not to change, no self discipline for those "worthies", they like things just the way they are, and from these corrupt ranks come your notaries and judges.

the government cannot control them through ombudsmen or any other way.

there is absolutely no desire for change, they never denounce each other and have the strongest union imaginable.

they are determined to feed on the unfortunate citizen until he is sucked dry, then they will have a feeding frenzy on our bones.

the only hope is to sweep them away altogether and rely on the benign citizen.

we need a revolution before the law becomes respectable.

Regards

Norman



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06 Aug 2009 10:26 by Tish Star rating in Surrey. 833 posts Send private message

Agree 100% Norman !!   

Several years ago, I was asked by the producer of a Granada programme, whom I thought was the cause of our situation, ( 96,euros deposit...no property built!) I said, without hesitation, the lawyer. They signed a ppc, with illegal clauses, and without doing a search. The building licence was revoked 4 weeks later and no BG given because the Bank already knew there was  a problem!





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06 Aug 2009 10:59 by goodstich44 Star rating in northampton. 1636 posts Send private message

normansands

until I got involved in Spanish property I had never had a problem with the lawyers I used in the UK. I chose through word of mouth from those I trusted who had a good experience with their lawyer.  We have to use them unless we are experts in Spanish law, and I do think our current lawyer is doing what can be done within the system. We agreed on a price before starting litigation, and up to the new development regarding the creditor list, that is what we have paid. He managed to secure a court embargo over a year ago. I had to attend our court case in Malaga in April this year, and our lawyer put our case across very strongly, and I also had an Interprator sitting beside me, telling me what was being said at every stage.  Had our case not been delayed by the courts for a year, then sentence not delayed for a further 5-6 months, then I think we could have have got justice by now. As I said before, the developer made an offer in court before the hearing started, so had guilty written all over.

If I turn out to be wrong about our lawyer then the forum will soon know about it, but at the moment I feel the justice system is most to blame for us not getting the money stolen from us by Aifos.  I certainly agree though, the whole bloody system stinks, and seems geared towards the victims who did everthing they could to protect their investments, having to pay for the lies of unregulated crooks and a corrupt or at best  a very poor and slow justice system.





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06 Aug 2009 12:26 by normansands Star rating in Kent. 1281 posts Send private message

Dear All,

Myra has told us that not all lawyers are bad and Goodstich thinks he has had good service from lawbird, but bad service from their predecessors.

Myra has also told us that Aifos is still yet demanding money from clients under the strict terms of a legal contract prepared, no doubt, by their lawyers.

However who is presenting those demands to the clients with no properties and no prospect???????????

No doubt that is also the lawyers, not the directors themselves.

What possible excuse is there for such action????

"I am only following my clients' instructions, as I am bound to do so, by my union and colleagues"??????????

If that is not corruption, then what is?????????

They should be in the dock with the directors.

Then how many of the "good" lawyers have actually denounced the bad, how many judges have denounced them, how many have been censored or struck off, how much compensation have their unions actually made out to the long suffering public???????????

Answers please from the "good" lawyers.

Regards

Norman


 



This message was last edited by normansands on 06/08/2009.



This message was last edited by normansands on 06/08/2009.

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06 Aug 2009 14:25 by Chimps Star rating. 117 posts Send private message

 

  Hi Kathy

100% correct unless it hurts the government then no change

Norman
 
100% Why uphold the law when there is more money to be made by being corrupt without re-course
 
Why bother when you can screw someone on the legal’s on a purchase and again when they return for help.
Why do the government have to do anything ? They have had billions in aid and billions in revenues from property sales and the corruption around it.
 
Why the hell do the Lawyers want change? Until they fight for change or be bound by the law of the land then no one is safe buying anything in Spain
Until something is sorted then even those with property are victims.

I thought for a moment that there may have been a momentum on this thread but it’s ended as being the Aifos thread

Aifos were only part players just like the rest of the developers. They couldnt have screwed many without the gang behind them.

As they say the only way is when it hurts and until everyone sees that this is the mindset then nothing will change.

Until Spain can be trusted. Dont buy and thats coming from someone that owns property there and may want to sell one day.





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06 Aug 2009 14:41 by Tish Star rating in Surrey. 833 posts Send private message

Correction of my post below.

Several years ago, I was asked by the producer of a Granada programme, whom I thought was the cause of our situation, ( 96,000 euros deposit...no property built!) I said, without hesitation, the lawyer.

Norman wrote:
Then how many of the "good" lawyers have actually denounced the bad, how many judges have denounced them,

Our Lawyer , Carlos Comitre, pursued our  first lawyer through the Court, the Judge denounced the lawyer and ordered that they return 60% of the fees they charged us( for diddly squat).  These lawyers( a big company in Marbella) have appealed that decision,!!!!!!



This message was last edited by Tish on 06/08/2009.



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06 Aug 2009 16:14 by goodstich44 Star rating in northampton. 1636 posts Send private message

Chimps said

''Aifos were only part players just like the rest of the developers. They couldnt have screwed many without the gang behind them.''

yes, same old story time and time again.  The reason there are so many liars and cheats in the Spanish property market is the same reason so many good people are cheated. It's run by those who refuse to regulate agaist crooks and refuse to grant justice to most of  those cheated.

 Corruption from top to bottom and very 'rough justice'!   I would have said that  I was being to cynical with that view a year ago, not any more sadly.


 



This message was last edited by goodstich44 on 06/08/2009.



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06 Aug 2009 16:41 by Smiley Star rating in San Pedro de Alcanta.... 2478 posts Send private message

Smiley´s avatar

I would concur with everything said "in general" regarding the experiences mentioned here but like everything else there are always good and bad examples. I would certainly agree with the facts that certain legal firms werent acting in their clients best interest, there is an extremely slow justice system here in Spain and that developers were unscrupulous in the way they took advantage of potential buyers.

There is a however coming.......

However a massive, massive number of buyers or investors (however you prefer to define them) were reeled in by very very slick marketing departments with baited hooks of promises of double digit growth and massive rental potential. I am ashamed to say that these were in the absolute majority Irish or British owned, managed, trained etc companies. There were numerous instances of British/Irish companies approaching developers and committing to a specific number or percentage of a development  at a specific price with the agreement they could sell each individual unit for what they wanted and retain the difference, One specific example springs to mind where a buyer had paid 160,000€ for a two bed two bath unit - the person next door had placed their reservation on an identical (in every way) unit next door three weeks later and had paid 215,000€. Bank valuation at completion 18 months on was 228,000€. The harsh reality is that the person that paid 160,000€ probably overpaid for her property - let alone the poor devil next door. I know because I arrnaged the mortgages for both and saw the dated purchase contracts etc. This is not an isolated instance or one rogue agent - this type of thing was happening up and down the coast of Spain on all the costas and when the CDS prices had escalated beyond the means of the ordinary woking individual the money machine moved to other parts of Spain where land and build costs were cheaper.

I would agree that the system here allowed these people/companies to get away with it but it should also be remembered that a great deal of it was fuelled by peoples greed to get on the runaway train and make a buck through property investment - in most instances there was very little thought process that went into it beyond watching a couple of programmes on TV and perhaps visiting an Anthea and Grant seminar. The hundreds of people that I have spoken to in the last 7 years that spent less time researching how they spent their money here in Spain (and the likes of Bulgaria, Dubai etc for that matter) in contrast with the time spent researching how they spend their money in the UK was gobsmacking.

Without doubt developers, lawyers, the system here are all flawed and at fault - please let us not forget the poor ethics and extortionate commissions of the shop window that brought the lambs to the slaughter with promises of yellow brick roads and eternal wealth. They were the ones that did not do their due diligence to ensure the goods were saleable (and believe me it was do-able as there are agents here who have never taken on any of the "risk product" - funnily enough a great many of those are still open for business even now), or encouraged developers to cut corners (legal or otherwise) to provide them with something (in fact anything) to sell.



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06 Aug 2009 17:58 by goodstich44 Star rating in northampton. 1636 posts Send private message

Smiley

I think during the housing boom in the UK or the stockmarket boom for that matter, people took a gamble on market forces. Some listened to salemen, some didn't , some won, some lost.  Yes partly greed, and partly just doing the best they could with their money. In the Spanish property boom people also took a gamble on market forces, but the big difference is despite following the rules, and employing so called experts holding positions of legal trust to protect their investment, far to many were simply cheated. First by agents/lawyers/developers and then by the justice system itself.  

Making bad decisions, or listening to liars is not a crime. Market forces sort out those faults as a rule unless you are plain lucky.  Allowing those in positions of trust like agents, lawyers, developers, council officials, mayors, judges, etc to cheat people and betray their trust is a crime, but in Spain that is just not taken as common sense or obvious and neither is the punishment. Is it any wonder so many 'wrong 'people prospered?.  The British agents did indeed take advantage of the hopeless lack of regulation.

As for the justice for those wronged, well what more can you say?  Until Spain cleans up it's act, it deserves failure in the property market. It has failed so many decent people by allowing corruption at all levels.

We know there are good guys among the bad in the property industry, but I don't think most consider they are in big numbers, and the reputation is getting worse as more bad apples float to the top.





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06 Aug 2009 20:59 by Smiley Star rating in San Pedro de Alcanta.... 2478 posts Send private message

Smiley´s avatar

I cant really disagree with anything you say Goodstitch as I wasnt disagreeing with the earlier posts. Simply highlighting the fact that the people who have in the most part exploited Spains weaknesses in regulation and procedure have largely been of British origin (and thats from a Brit - and proud of my heritage). Developers would have been far less inclined to exploit a flawed system without being pushed and shown the way by the Brits - generally the Spanish are anything for a quiet if not lazy life - most workers would rather earn 10,000 a year less and have 10 hours a week less work than earn more money. While the likes of Santander (and a few others) have become global players and have a commercial capitalist mindset they are very much in the minority. I have to say that from personal experience there are many many lawyers, developers, estate agents etc that are as dismayed by what has been allowed to happen and hence the regulation is being introduced - albeit slowly and after the horse has bolted. 

No market is ever perfect - property or any other - consider the state of the UK banking industry if credit default swaps hadnt been the answer to modern mans need to consume - would you now be part owner of N Rock, HBOS (sorry Lloyds), RBS if the authorities had policed the situation correctly (thankfully there are no Spanish banks with this type of exposure - possibly more by accident than design - they didnt understand the instrument so they didnt get involved), prior the UK Financial Services Act mis-selling of endowment policies in the UK was rife. Mistakes can only be corrected when the error becomes apparent - buying property anywhere (and this includes the UK) is a buyer beware situation. While I am 100% sympathetic with anyone that has been caught there were simply too many people blinded by either the dream or greed (I think mostly the former) that "the person that became their best friend ever over a three day viewing trip became the person that had the clients best interest at heart" - the number of times I have heard the story "John was a lovely guy and couldnt do enough for us while we were in Spain. He bought us bottles of wine, coffees, tapas". Of course he did - he wanted the signature on the contract. 

Without a doubt Spain will be back and it will be a stronger, wiser market, with more protection for any buyer. I suspect it will be a more regulated market than the UK. When the Spanish close loopholes they make sure the plug fits - tight. Nonetheless there will still be those that will believe what they are told if its what they want to hear. They are still out there now and still having blind faith in what they are told by their new best friend, instead of checking - I speak in relation to a conversation I have had in the last 24 hours. When I told they guy "you cannot do what is being suggested, its fraud" he said to me "but Paul told me it was no problem". When I suggested "Paul" might have other motivations for leading him this way he became very protective of Paul - guess maybe it was because I hadnt bought the guy any Tapas or wine.  



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06 Aug 2009 22:40 by myra cecilia Star rating in Manilva Malaga. 213 posts Send private message

Smiley. Good positive post but I have to disagree on one point. And I assure you that my circle of friends and work colleagues are spanish. They do not need the Brits to teach them corruption. Some are masters at it and beat the brits hands down. The British are only more clever at hiding their corruption. I am always defending the Spanish but need tell the truth as it is.


 



This message was last edited by myra cecilia on 06/08/2009.

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06 Aug 2009 22:56 by MAGICMEG Star rating in Scotland. 546 posts Send private message

myra cecilia ,

I find what you are suggesting astounding . I always thought it was the few and not the many .I have just read a population survey which states that 98% of Spanish citizens are Catholic,  is this true? If so are the churches of Spain empty on a Sunday morning  while those involved in this examine their consciences ? Perhaps we should address these issues through the Vatican who could in turn issue a message through the Bishops of Spain !!!!!! MM

Smiley I disagree with you the Spanish property abuses are being very well documented by the press in the uk /europe /russia /usa  etc  if Spain does not sort this out and quickly it will never recover and the property market in Spain will be finished for ever .The choice is Spains but it looks very much like the powers that be just don't get it !


 



This message was last edited by MAGICMEG on 06/08/2009.

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06 Aug 2009 23:09 by myra cecilia Star rating in Manilva Malaga. 213 posts Send private message

Hi Magicmeg. You are joking me. Maybe not. No not 98% only at Easter and other religous holidays.  I presume you watch Siesta TV.  Well the Antonio from Antonios show is my work colleague.  Maybe EOS want to do a program on this very subject. I could talk on this for hours but I think it would be better coming from a Spaniard. Some may think that I am being biased. honestly I do tell it as it is. And if Antonio lies I will know and he will be in trouble

 

 


 



This message was last edited by myra cecilia on 06/08/2009.

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06 Aug 2009 23:15 by goodstich44 Star rating in northampton. 1636 posts Send private message

Smiley

yes, I feel  we all know what needs to change to make massive improvements to Spains property industry. I just hope for everyone's sake (apart from those taking advantage!) those changes come sooner rather than later. People should indeed be wiser through being better informed in future, and won't expect the relative common sense on regulation and justice we pretty much take for granted in the UK. If Spain does adopt common sense on regulation and justice, then I agree, it will come back much stronger, but from the farce of my case being delayed for a year, then sentence delayed for at least another 5 months while it was obvious the developer was going under any moment, proves justice for those clearly cheated is a long way off at the moment.

As for more corrupt, English or Spanish?  The poor regulation no doubt attracts those who don't care who and how much hurt they cause, and I think they can be just as easily from either country. We were screwed by a UK agent and lawyer, and a Spanish lawyer and developer.





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06 Aug 2009 23:33 by MAGICMEG Star rating in Scotland. 546 posts Send private message

myra I am quite sure Antonio volunteers for the church and is an alter boy in his spare time " joking" all I am trying to say is would it be possible to appeal to the moral conscience of the corrupt through the church or I am just naive  . I was at a retreat today where we were asked to write our worries on a postcard forget about them and put them in the hands of God .On my postcard I simply wrote "SPAIN  "Spain is now in the hands of God .

I can not help now,  comparing one countries corruption to another the political corruption in the UK was unforgivable but did not directly and devastatingly ruin the lives of  individuals on an emotional and financial level .What is happening in Spain does.

The Spanish government has to wake up to the evil that has been inflicted on innocent  individuals who are facing  devastating financial and emotional  harm  at the hands of the Spanish judicial  system  .Spain is allowing abuses of human rights to the greater glory of greed and corruption . It will not go unnoticed and will never be forgotten . MM



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  Nothing surprises me anymore  

     but I am willing to accept that sometimes (although not very often ) I can be  wrong !




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07 Aug 2009 00:08 by myra cecilia Star rating in Manilva Malaga. 213 posts Send private message

I am sure you are not interested but i need to go to bed as having photos taken tomorrow at the office for the new website. But besided getting hooked on this forum with you great people. I have to say what a great lot you are and so prolific and just. Power and peace to you all.



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07 Aug 2009 00:33 by MAGICMEG Star rating in Scotland. 546 posts Send private message

Good night Myra sleep well



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  Nothing surprises me anymore  

     but I am willing to accept that sometimes (although not very often ) I can be  wrong !




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07 Aug 2009 02:21 by Smiley Star rating in San Pedro de Alcanta.... 2478 posts Send private message

Smiley´s avatar

Not so sure I would agree with you that Westminster corruption hasnt ruined the lives of the general populace - forget the expenses scandal although that was bad enough - if Brown wasnt placing his cronies in positions such as the Head of the FSA (backscratchers anonymous) maybe there would have been a little more regulation imposed on those fine British Institutions financed by the taxpayer such as Railtrack, Lloyds TSB/HBOS, Bank of Scotland Nat West and Northern Rock. 

I am not so sure the other option would have done any better it should be said but if you appoint someone as your business mandarin and effective deputy leader of the party (I believe he is in charge in Gords absence) who one assumes must have  committed mortgage fraud several years (his declared income in no way met Britannia Building Society's criteria - so either he was earning more than he was telling the Inland Revenue or he disclosed incorrect figures) back can you honestly say there is no corruption in Westminster. The fact they are able to vote themselves inflation busting pay rises, not to mention final salary schemes is that not corrupt - these are all things that should not be taken lightly and cost the general man and woman in the street a phenomenal amount of money. I guess it depends on your view on corruption.

Sorry but this thread seems to have gone off track onto politics. So thats my last word. Was simply trying to point out that a great many of the people that are bitter about what has happened to them in many many cases have only themselves to blame (I am very very sympathetic to all that have experienced this). During the heady days of 06 and 07 the number of people I spoke with who all had dollar signs rolling around their eyes over the profit they would make by selling on prior to completion - not simply on one property but on multiples of three five and even in one case ten. They had been like cannon fodder and the great majority of those loading the cannon had been of British origin.



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