Rough justice yet again!

Before anyone shouts 'off topic' I know......but I feel compelled to respond to the following statement by georgia as it is something I have felt passionately about since it happened.

"When a country can release a mass murdering convicted terrorist"

Please see the following article, it hasn't been given much publicity but  that is no surprise. Dr Jim Swires who lost a daughter also thinks the conviction was wrong.

why.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208432/A-2m-witness-payment-bogus-forensic-evidence-Pentagon-memo-blaming-Iran-How-Lockerbie-bomber-threatened-Scottish-justice.html#addComment

I'm not trying to raise a debate but find it annoying when statements like this are made and feel I have to remind people that all maybe not as it seems.

Regards, Poppyseed

Poppyseed

 a common line from some of those trying to justify living in Spain is a constant attack on UK life, and grasping negative newspaper headlines with delight, however sensationalist or however dubious the evidence. Best taken with a pinch of salt I think.

Gillespie said

''It would tell me something if it were thousands, even hundreds of different accounts.

But the fact is, it is the same 2 or 3 dozen!''

......this shows what we are up against, even getting those we would assume full support from to accept the ugly truths..  Suzie has around 900 names on her petition. Those names are the tip of the iceburg. When you start to ask who really got what they were promised?  got what was in their contract,?  got what they paid for?,  got it in a reasonable time, haven't lost a lot of money on paper already?, the answer is I think few among thousands of people. Same story for those seeking justice. We just have to accept some will never come on board, because they will never accept just how bad things are, or if they do, they think we are to few to make any difference. They might be right?, but that sort of 'giving up the fight' attitude isn't something many of us are prepared to do.

Thankfully those like Maria and Lawbird do still contribute when serious legal questions are asked, as do others in the industry with very useful and supportive info'.  If everyone who has made contributions can carry on post ing any interesting opinions, comments, news, or just support, then that is a massive help for those of us looking for ways to find justice. The thread is bound to go up and down in the lists, but whatever happens, i'm very greatfull for the huge level of help support shown on this thread for those so clearly cheated. Thanks guys. 

Those bored with our fight for justice have the choice to just ignore the thread.

Poppyseed: Without getting into the Lockerbie debate, I really do agree with your general comment that 'all maybe not as it seems'  particularly regarding some comments on this thread that have been put forward as facts rather than opinions.

Goodstich - With you all the way

I've heard from one person who has received a reply from No. 10 after writing a supportive letter.  They've been told that their letter has been passed to the FCO   Anyone else had a reply?  I've not received one as yet.

Is it too early for a G&T?

By the way, have spent a long time this week passing info to a journalist for the Financial Times.  There should be an article this weekend in the FT Supplement.

Dear All,

we are all selfish in some way, if only in the experiences that have influenced us.

Trader Gillespie may have never been much involved in property exhibitions and off-plan promotions, so his experience in that regard may be limited.

However if he takes from the forum as well as giving, he must appreciate the facts, which are that his mate Smiley is absolutely right in that off-plan purchases in Spain are a lottery best avoided.

I have blamed and condemned the lawyers as the true criminals, the leaders in the corruption, but even they could not have succeeded without the connivance of the clients, who in their droves have accepted rubbish instead of the quality they had paid and contracted to receive. This is largely due to the high deposits required in Spain, 30% on exchange of contracts, as opposed to the 10% or 5% in this country. Who can afford to lose 30% as advised by the corrupt lawyers???

Thousands of them are, I believe, out there, MAKING THE BEST OF THINGS AND SHOWING THE TRUE BRITISH SPIRIT, working hard on their worthless unsaleable properties. Bless them.

Come on Gillespie, don't let me down, put the figures straight.

Regards

Norman

Suzie

good work again, well done.

,,,,,,,I'm sure just one small G&T will be ok!

norman

who indeed can afford to lose 30% deposit. If the deposits had been a sensible government max 5%, I daresay the agents and developers would have taken a different line. If those making the rules are little better than those breaking the rules though, what chance do people stand?  Many are indeed 'making the best of it', and felt forced to accept things they wouldn't dream as a rule. I think part of that 'making the best of it', includes not dragging up old wounds and admitting they were conned. It's quite likely they are the silent majority.

Goodstich said      "a common line from some of those trying to justify living in Spain is a constant attack on UK life, and grasping negative newspaper headlines with delight, however sensationalist or however dubious the evidence. Best taken with a pinch of salt I think"

Firstly, i do not have to "Justify" living in Spain, i am actually here because i really enjoy it although you may find that hard to believe or admit as it goes against your new theory that the majority that has purchased here although seemingly happy are actually hiding their true feelings and are in denial!!!!.........I for one bought off plan,it was delivered 2 weeks early,a few little snags of course,haven't lost any money.....while we are the last point of your argument,      are you know saying that anyone that did lose money on their purchase should sign the petition because obviously the Spanish Justice sytstem dodgy agents and builders are responsible for the Economic downfall and should have been notified about this in advance by their legal team!!!??????

Secondly, it pains me greatly to read headlines daily of the demise of UK life....... i use it the same way as you do with Spain but with heavy heart.

Sensationalist and Pinch of salt would not be phrases i would use, especially regardings the feeelings of 200+ families that lost loved ones to a terroristd bomb on British soil........i would imagine your argument of losing money on  a property investment would pale into insignificance in the the grand scale of things...

Beleive it or not i actually back the cause for change and i will be honest i have my own agenda, if the buying process is 100% airtight then more buyers will have the confidence to come here increasing my buisness.....that may seem selfish but at least honest....

In my opinion we should all admit that some are really happy and others are not rather than the conned trying to convince all that Spain is a a hell hole of legal laxity and the happy to sympathise with the cause.........

Constant sniping does not champion anything just widens the gap in perception.

georgia

good to hear you back the cause for change. Of course we know some are happy and some are not, I' ve always said that if you care to listen?.  So why not back those cheated, sign Suzie's petition and join all those fighting for justice through change?  What is your problem with that?

 Remind me of how and i will be sign it in a heatbeat.............

georgia

www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

or check Suzie's link on the previous page if this doesn't work.

As one who has suffered a large loss of capital(98K) due to the innefectual nature of the Spanish legal system and the calibre of those employed in this area, I feel that whilst I have great sympathy with others in this matter it is time to get behind the various movements acting on others behalf.

Let those groups argue the case for all  as it can only damage our reputation if  we continue to complain our individual cases as this tends to water down any sympathy others have for the overall cause.

I have no complaint against Spain, the Spanish people or the mebers of the legal profession as a whole. I have found along with others that there are honourable members who value their integrity.

In fact I still intend to purchase in Spain (although with a limited budget) and with a tried and tested legal representative, I will not be purchasing off plan or any of the cheap and cheerful apartments round the coast. I will purchase a real spanish property in a real spanish village with all paperwork in place and look on my past efforts as a learning curve (however painful).

I will continue to fight through the courts for what I consider to be theft of my hard earned money but will not become consumed by hatred of the spanish system or its people.

Dear Vilprano,

absolutely, hope you succeed, will join you if at all possible but not with exactly the same objective, twenty years ago perhaps a nice little finca somewhere without the neighbour problems that some have faced.

Good luck

Norman

vilprano

well I admire your resolve, and agree the system needs change for all. Good luck with your new venture inland, and of course with your fight to get back the 98k back that was stolen from you.

As for not hating the Spanish people, no of course not, many of them are victims as well. Look what's happened to their once lovely coastline!!  As for some of the members of the legal system and the justice system, well I think my hatred for them is quite healthy!!!  Not all consuming though, I have faith in the good ones still, and have a busy life outside the Spanish mess.

Hello Suzie

Not received anything back from Jeremy Claksons most admired gent as yet.Will let you know when I do.

 Real problem(in my opinion) Norman thats I.M.O . if we really want to get further support its highlighted in Georgias last post

When I decided to support Goodstich44/Suzie etc it was because of this cause being  Rough Justice there is no reason for argument .

Geogia has clearly pointed out that many more may just offer support if ?

1  . Snide remarks stop

2   Do not slate Spain and its people with suggestions that all is wrong in that Country. Thats the way to lose support.

3   Because someone has an opinion,let them have their say and try not make a big issue if it does come accross as I am all right Jack..  We are not fighting them .They are not fighting us .

For us to get more support we need to listen and then someone may listen to us and offer support.

If I sound as though I am weakening then that cannot be further from the truth. I just feel that we should not alienate anyone as it can look at times that unless you have been conned you cant join our motion for change

Even with me being someone who has completed and glad I did have felt unease at times on this thread with one or two comments. 

If we are not going to willingly accept support without thinking at someone has some sort of self motive behind I feel that this kinda makes it look at times that the cause is just being fought by a minor number just fighting to get their money back

Those In the fight  know that its far far bigger than that.Please allow what others see.Try to get them to see just what this corrupt legal system has done to so many.. I dont think many realise this as they are mixing in general with those having completed and are happy.

To those that want to come onto the thread to just moan and things are worse elsewhere. This is not about elsewhere.This is here and now, its about a group of people that are just trying to do their bit so that many more will not suffer like Goodstich44.

Dont knock it. Join it or move on.

As one poster said. This is bigger than Goodstich 44/Suzie/Maria so lets keep the pressure up.

Actually, Georgia, I find comments like "a common line from some of those trying to justify living in Spain is a constant attack on UK life, and grasping negative newspaper headlines with delight, however sensationalist or however dubious the evidence. Best taken with a pinch of salt I think" 

very offensive.  As if we have all made a mistake and only goodstich can see the light.  We do not need to justify our decision and you will very rarely see any attacks on UK, on the contrary, more of a sadness at the way things are going.

To balance up the gainsayers and merchants of doom, I wil do something I haven't done before and refer you miserable sods to another chat site (sorry, EOS, if this is against the rules but I do feel it is justified in this case) where people are Really Happy

This will probably put some posters on here on the back foot but here it is

http://quesadalife.com/forum/index.php?action=vthread&forum=1&topic=959&page=0

So, please, as Georgia says, stop telling us we are all in denial.  Lots of us do actually like it here, much as you will find that hard to believe. 

I completely disagree with Georgia,s comments of course many have successfully bought in Spain and are enjoying living there,No one is denying that but I think the numbers caught up in the rough justice scenario in Spain are  hugely under estimated  .

Most people  unlike the victims who have a voice on this and other forums don't speak out .They are to embarrassed to because of attitudes like yours .

One of the things people like Suzie  and myself have been trying to raise awareness of  through the  EU/ politicians etc  is  for a true reflection of just how many and how many euros /£s  are involved in this  .Believe me it is huge , Not just a case of a few whingers trying to spoil you dream life in Spain .Georgia you insult not just the few but many thousands believe me !

I believe Georgia that your wonderful life in Spain depends very much on the property market  making a come back , if this is the case you do yourself no favours in trying to whitewash this issue by making out it is just the ill informed few that got caught .

Your future customers are not that stupid .If the Spanish property industry from agents ,developers,councils,Lawyers to judiciary and government do not clean up their act it is finished .Best Regards MM

So, please, as Georgia says, stop telling us we are all in denial.  Lots of us do actually like it here, much as you will find that hard to believe. 

Bobaol, that statement cuts both ways.  Much as you find it hard to believe, THOUSANDS of people have been robbed of  individually, tens of thousands of pounds. Unless you are a multimillionaire, it  is a life changing demise. Even m-millionaires wouldn't accept being robbed & cheated.  Had I not been cheated, I'm sure I would be extolling the virtues of how wonderful life is in what would have been a beautiful apartment in Elviria, that my family enjoy..... but not on a forum!!  I am not denying that Spain has a fab climate, lovely bars & restaurants etc, but it ain't cheap no more!....and it has no scruples.

 Magicmeg, as always , a well written post by you.

MagicMeg,

Well said and if further confirmation of the corrupt workings of the Spanish banking and property industry

is required then let the 'I'm all alright Jacks' take a look at the following links:-

http://www.eyeonspain.com/spain-magazine/banks-crack.aspx

www.deadlysecrets.es

  The author didn't get  the material for a book out of the foolishness of a few 'miserable sods', he saw for himself the wholesale corruption that exists in Spain.

When corruption is so endemic then there are not just a handful who fall 'victim', there are thousands. And, as MagicMeg points out , it is attitudes such as some shown on this thread that prevent more 'victims'  from speaking out.

Please allow those 'victims'  the opportunity to exchange information and support each other in peace. That way more 'victims' might be encouraged to come forward and join the fight for real justice without the feeling they are being ridiculed. 

At the moment some of them must feel like a rape victim who is told that it is his/her own fault.

Dear All,

it is not for nothing that Spain became top of the list for Brits to buy a holiday home, it is a great pity that corrupt Spanish lawyers have caused the many problems.

We would all have, I am sure, liked to have been in a position to have not been targeted by these absolute criminals and be able to enjoy happy experiences and post about them as Bobaol has done, no question. Sadly that is not the case.

I have been musing on what I think Pitby suggested that some of the very useful information posted should be archived in some sort of reference way.

Bobaol may have a worthless, unsaleable holiday home as may have Pitby, Chimps and others, but they can afford it, enjoy it and make the most of it until the Bulls return to the market.

Bobaol is no shrinking violet, may be a bit of a "drama queen", threatening to top himself and not to return to the thread, but he has a tale to tell and I wish he would detail it, even if it is only in a pm, please.

Georgia has posted a successful off-plan purchase in spite of Smiley's advice, but again with no detail.

I am particularly interested with how many of these successful purchases actually had something more substantial than the easily purchased "certificate of occupation", a surveyor's report or at least a building expert's report.

Earlier I have been pm'd by English builders who have bought on Spanish urbanisations and confessed that they are ashamed of themselves for their stupidity in accepting rubbish build quality in their Spanish holiday homes.

It would be interesting to know how widespread the quality issue is.

All information please.

Regards

Norman

The quality issue is something that would be written about if there were not bigger issues to discuss!  I'm no expert but  even so I know quality when I see it. Hard to find on many Spanish developments. I was in contact with a guy who owned his own electrical company, his son was a builder. he was buying on Las Lomas. He was incredulous at how dreadful the building quality was. He sued the developer and got his money back.

sandra/ MAGIC

well said, it's pretty clear who really supports those cheated on the thread.  As you say, far more people would be inclined to speak out if not being made to feel they were at fault for being cheated!!  I'm so pleased that there are so many people on this thread who recognise the need for change and understand just how wrong the system is. I have great admiration also for those who have bought in Spain or live in Spain and are happy with their lot, but still understand why and how bad thing are for some and support those wronged. They are probably the key to change if enough of them do their bit.

Tish

how ever many times we say we know there are lot's of happy people in Spain as well of lots who have been conned, and we are happy for those for whom things have gone right, some won't accept it, like they won't accept the numbers we talk about or the fact so many have been treated so badly through no fault of their own. I'm just greatful for all of you who can see it the way it is and are doing your best to help force change.

Keep up the good work, all those helping in any way,  and have a good bank holiday.