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Hi Darren/Michelle
Thanks for your post - I have a question that may be obvious to others, but bear with me. You mention a 6month administration - is that the standard time the administrators would assist San Jose? I know this is all theoretical at the moment, but do administrators stay to see a project completed, or just until they think a company is on it's financial feet?
Some people (myself included) hadlost a bit of faith in SJ prior to the administration, however knowing that it is now open to scrutiny actually makes me feel a bit better, as more should (in theory) be out in the open and we can get our solicitors to scrutinise.
In theory, if after 6 months, the administrators were happy with the finances, could they withdraw perhaps leaving us still without building licenses and others still without their Bank Guarantees? therefore we would be no further forward then we were just prior to the administration process?
I know, so many questions and so many possibilities, but these are the practicalities we are weighing up.
Tracey
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Sorry guys but have to get info out to all who want their properties and asked for SARC letters
Dear all SARC members and interested parties,
I have had proplems with loading up the PDf letters to this site please email me direct at santaanadelmonte@hotmail.com
as I can the foward on from there sorry to be a pain but plot numbers are also of use to tie things up together so that I don't miss anyone
Brianmags
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Alan & tracey
The Administrators are put in place to help manage a company that has financial constraints to maintain business and to ease assisitance in doing so (say from banks that are not playing ball !!). typically the administration is made up from reputable businessmen- lawyers, bankers, financial advisors, creditors etc who's objective it is to look at the businesses finances, it's commitments, importantly- it's order books and make a unified judgement on whether that business can manage sustainability if they can fight their way out of the financial situation. The minimum period of time they can be in place is 6 months which we could portray as a positive to say SJG have enough assets and business to get themselves out of this situation expeditiously. If after this period, the assetment is positive, they will resume positive trading, if not, the Administrators will extend their involvement for a further probationary period. If it's bleak, they will take the company into liquidation. The fact SJG are involved in talks to offload assets that do not really have much business impact, to me is positive.
in this case, the issue has been caused by a number of critical factors, the final licence being granted in May (as we told many it would) which then means SJG have to move ahead and commit with the build, to do so they need to finance the next stage, Banks need to help and they have pulled up the shutters due to the economic climate at present, not just businesses, homeowners cannot get mortgages either. San jose would have approached a number of viable lenders to assist and if no-one comes forward, they have to go into administration to get the Courts (and administrators) involved. These 'bodies' have the legal power to make the financial organisations oblige and co-operate. Looking ate the balance sheet including assets, San Jose could be perceived to be in a good position to survive SHOULD they get the required assistance. again, no-one expected El Pinet and Santa Ana to get the go-ahead in such close timescale thus doubling the financial commitment.
With a fair-wind, the hotel will be off-loaded, capital raised and re-invested and all the promises met, albeit late. None of us can make decisions for other individuals whether they should continue with the wait, take the risk of the administrators saying yes or no to the viability of SJG. Honesty on my behalf, many partners we know are biding their time at the moment and keeping a close eye on proceedings, which is our stance as well. Those that follow SARC, you have our full support, those that follow the reclaimation path, you also have our support, follow your head and your heart on this occassion.
hope that helps you
darren
p.s as mentioned, these administrators are professional people (not saying SJ aren't) so their help in getting this company back on it's feet is invaluable - put a cost agianst all the experience, skill and knowledge now in place to suppliment SJG.
This message was last edited by Darren_Michelle on 6/4/2008.This message was last edited by Darren_Michelle on 6/4/2008.
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Hi Darren-Michelle/Alan/Tracey
We were in a panic concerning the administration, which is only just beginning to subside really,(panic that is)
The things that struck me about the administration process was the way it seemed to be treated as a 'dont worry, it will be ok' by San Jose, which is a different kind of reaction to any administration i have known in the UK., so i have slowly realised things are a bit different.
Having said that, the administrator is only in place because there is such a big chunk of development, spread over a lot of sites, with missing or insecure licences and a percieved shortage of sales, due to the climate. I suppose you can understand the financial institutions getting nervous and limiting the support when thats the case.
As i look at it now, and its still a reaction trying to make sense of it, its not any one event like the sale of a hotel or one parcel of land that will make the difference. It seems it will be a kind of re-generation thing almost.
Sort of looking at all the infrastructure, stakeholders, sales, commitments etc. and perhaps a re-evaluation of time scales for completions. In other words drawing up a new business plan for the current climate, endorsed by administration professionals, or not as the case may be.
From that process it could be determined that all is viable, lenders are confident, then administrators are able to help the situation forward.
I have come to a current conclusion that thinking about it from my aspect, there is no way i can grasp the scale of the decision the administrators have to make right now with the information i have available. Complete speculation.
I have decided to make sure we are represented, see what offers come from the process, offers of other properties, sites etc
Make a decision when more information is available.
Brian
_______________________
Best wishes, Brian
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Hi Guys,
just got this from SJ about the IVA and how it works please this is an example though it would help some people you are worried about what is declared as deposits with courts, the variation between what we have paid and what is listed as deposits. so what lseems to look like a shady practice is actually keeping it leagal. by paying taxes as monies are recieved.
hope this is useful
Subject: Re: Deposit amount listed with court
Hi Brian,
When you purchase a property you pay the property price plus a 7% I.V.A (V.A.T).
Each payment that we receive from a client, we must declare a 7% of this amount to the Tax Office. For this reason you will appear on the creditors list of a lower amount than what you transferred.
For example
Property price 100.000€
I.V.A 7% of the property price 7.000€
Total to be paid for the property 107.000€
Method of payment (depending on each clients contract)
For example
30% Deposit 30.000€ of which we have paid 7% (2.100€) to the tax office, leaving a balance of 27.900€ as down payment towards the property.
70% of the property and the outstanding 7% IVA upon completion. 70.000€ of which we have to pay 7% (4.900€) to the Tax Office.
This is ONLY AN EXAMPLE and I hope this is clear .
regards
Pilar
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Hi All.. can someone explain to me why San Jose, if they really were in such a good financial position with assets outweighing debts by almost a factor of 10. But with a big cashflow problem would allow themselves to end up in Administration?
They have (apparently) a lot of key ready properties, surely they would have done triple somersaults and anything else required including letting these properties go at big discounts to generate cash.
Surely the last place any company wants is to find themselves in Administration. But San Jose seem to have let this happen without raising a hand to try & stop it, waiting until they are in administration before seeling of hotels etc.
There is more to all this I fear or am I missing something?
Mossy
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Hi Mossy,
How I understands that this works is, Apparently this form of administration was only brought into law in spain last year so that companies like SJ can ring fence debts and negotiate with creditors on repayments and then any loans from banks can only go to pay for compleation of said projects and not to pay off exhisting debts and it also protects those assets so that the companies have so that if at all possible the company has a better chance to survive and assets not sold for a song.
If only we had something like that in the UK many companies who have a short-middle term cash flow problem might be able to ride out the Credit Crunch. Actually it was certainly smart thinking on the Spanish Goverments part in introduce this addition to the senario instead of just administration and then more than likely liquidation as we have here in the UK.
I do believe that no one saw how bad the American sub prime mortgaes would affect other countries thats what happens when Globalisation moves into Banking as they are scared to lend even to each other remember Northern Rock and what happened there and all people done there was bank with them.
this is just my views and I might be wrong but that is how it was explained to me and how i understand it. If I am willing to retract if I have it completely wrong.
brianmags
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Dear All,
here is the reply to SARC's question about the creditors list from Costa Blanca News ( there will be further update when we get it)
Anthony,
This is the answer from the Law professor at Alicante University.
……………………..
“The list presented by the company is useless. They must be included in the list made by the three administrators pointed by the court to get their money back. The administrators have two months time to make the list. If the client is included in the list and the amounts are correct, the client has no problem. Maybe the lawyer wants to be sure the client is included and therefore he needs the contract and other documents to proof the amounts the client paid.”
……………………………..
However I agree that some lawyers are trying to take advantage of the situation to make large amounts of money and rip off property buyers.
I will look into how much different law firms are charging to put buyers on the creditors’ list.
Cheers, dave
Brianmags R4 556
We Want our House
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Dear All,
regarding the reply from the law professor at Alicante University obtained by CBS for SARC I asked : Do we need to present our contracts in court if we are on the creditors list posted by the administrators at the court? It would appear from the reply that if you are not trying to get your money back power of attorney is probably not necessary for the presentation of documents, which is only needed if you are not on the administrators creditor list or the amount is wrong.
I will not make any further comments other than I am awaiting replies on further questions, which , CBN, are trying to help us with and when the answers are recieved they will be posted for you all to see.
All the best to you all
I want my House
Tony R17 18
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for the record what you are proposing is, in my opinion, reckless and to be encouraging others to do so is not good. People will have no redress through the courts regarding any decision if they do not have a lawyer appointed to act on their behalf realistically. In order for this to happen, power of attorney needs to be granted. As you will be aware this is a situation which takes some time to sort with notaries, apostilling etc and therefore owners should not rely on being able to be reactive and consider outcomes after the event.
By all means "want your house" but unless you have money to burn your comments would appear to be a little lacking in any realism.
You still have not been clear in this campaign under what terms would you "want your house" Would you still want it if it has no facilities/ golf course swimming pools or hotel/ commercial centre
Would you still want it if the build goes ahead from a different company and some of the specs/ sizes and qualities of finish change
Would you still want the house if the company prooves to have lacked any integrity and decency (bearing in mind that they will play a role in the running and maintenance on going decisions in relation to the site
Would you still want the house if you cannot get habitation licences as is the case in El Pinet
Would you still want your house with the delays coupled with the spanish property slump and poor euro rate
These are all variables that could be fixed following the rulings of the adminstration procedure. I find it bizarre that you are sending this message out when all these variables are possible. You talk of issues with San jose rather than herrad del tollo, you talk of a guaranteed lengthly legal battle then a definitive 10% cost from the legal profession.
Darren would appear to be equally optimistic. He discusses the possibility of this hotel chain purchasing the hotel at El Pinet and speculating that they may also purchase the one at santa Ana resolving all problems.........................
There is no planning permission for a golf course, commercial centre or hotel so any idea that some hotel chain is going to purchase thin air when the likelihood of anything going ahead is nigh impossible is again pure day dreaming.
Sorry if my viewpoint upsets some people. In part I admiore you for what you are trying to acheive but just think you are not being objective and realistic. I will be very happy to get my money back and never hear of San jose again. If the director escapes without a jail sentence and the company does not liquidate then it will be a miracle.
This message was last edited by sarah12345 on 6/5/2008.
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Daer Sarah12345,
are you in disagreement with the Professor of law at the University of Alicanti. In that If you want the company and administrators to complete the project and are on the list of creditors you do not need to give power of attorney as you are not asking for your money back but that the projects be completed. and if so you only require that your solicitor check that you are included in the lists and that the sums are correct.
But if you decide that you want your money back then you obviously will be required to give your solititor power of attorney and some money for that process.
We are looking into finding a solicitor who will do this for a reasonable fee. quite a few are asking for 10% of deposit to do the job. as for waste in money lets do an example lets say your depost was
30000€
less 7% paid in Tax to goverment 2100€
balance 27900€
less 10% solitiors fees 2790€
cash return 25110€
total loss 4890€
thats nearly 5000€
I do think that any tax paid may be very difficult to get back from the goverment
where as if the project goes ahead and the cost for checking is around 600 euros then you have saved nearly 4300€we hope to provide the deatails of a well respect spanish leagel eagle to do the job for a reasonable price next week
regards Brianmags R4 556
and yes I do want our house
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Those of you who "want my house" are not being realistic. Suppose the build does go ahead, and you don't have a bank guarantee, your investment will still not be protected. What you are advocating is extremely irresponsible, the only way to proceed in this matter is to get your credit recognised by the court and if SJ continue to trade, insist on a bank guarantee or your money back!
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Hi Sarah and Matjo
I have been through the mangle of thoughts about this situation myself.
If its any use to you, we decided to employ the services of a local lawyer, after looking into 4 different ones we decided to pick the one we are with. There are some good ones. We sent some cash, we have done the notary/appostille thing and we are covered in terms of legal representation at court.
The way the credit has been recognised at court has caused our lawyer to say he will be sending some cash back if we want, the process will be cheaper than first thought because the credit is lodged with the administrators (when verified).
The guys on here advocating 'i want my house' are genuine and are pro-active and, after some carefull thought, i think they will have a strong lobby in keeping confidence up with the administrators and with people with advanced deposits/developments.
All in all i am saying it takes alsorts to unravel this problem, but for my part i have decided to make sure i have a representation, but not a panic. Pick a decent lawyer and work closely with all parties would be my advice, for what its worth, at present.
Hope that makes sense
Best wishes...Brian
_______________________
Best wishes, Brian
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Hi All,
the i want my House campaign and SARC is not advocating not having legal repesentation only that the fees are appraopriate and that the solicitor works for the clients wishes and aims and that there is no conflict of interst relating to money. SARC are presently with the help of CBN trying to source sutiable legal representation that meets these criteria and will provide good value for money and representation. WHen the information is recieved it will be posted for you all.
All the best
i want my house
Tony R17 18
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Hi All,
the i want my House campaign and SARC is not advocating not having legal repesentation only that the fees are appraopriate and that the solicitor works for the clients wishes and aims and that there is no conflict of interst relating to money. SARC are presently with the help of CBN trying to source sutiable legal representation that meets these criteria and will provide good value for money and representation. WHen the information is recieved it will be posted for you all.
All the best
i want my house
Tony R17 18
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sarah
Your comments are taken on board and you are free to publish them......for the record, I live above the San jose offices in la Zenia, like to think we are fairly close and up-to-date with what is happening over hear, probably in a better position than some !
I feel optomistic with what i am hearing, and that from partners that have far much more than you, I or SARC have invested (doesn't mean our investment is any less important) and therefore I am happy for the present moment to bide my time and not panic. if i believed everything what is written on these forums, good and bad, I'd be in an early grave through worry.
as I say, your comments are noted and its my perogative to remain positive.
darren
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Hello Brainmags
I am not disagreeing in black and white with what the university professor is saying only saying to interpret it in black and white is dangerous. If you do not give power of attorney to a lawyer to register your credit then you can hardly be reactive to any decisions that come from the court without first going through the process of signing a power of attorney and all the time that this involves.
If you had spent a little to take legal advice you would know some of the options available to you dependent on some of the possible outcomes. I think it is wrong to say that many lawyers are asking for a ten percent fee. I know of one and this is not representative of the legal profession. Most have said that they will consider fees once they can understand how the process is going to pan out and what potential options are; the reputable ones which people should consider.
As no-one currently knows this then no-one can comment on the potential fees it may take to reclaim money back as there could be a million and one different variables.
Darren, it is your perrogative to be positive and I am sorry if I appeared rude I just tried to inject a touch of realism to your post about a hotel chain buying out elements of san jose and saving the day. This is simply not going to happen and some peoples hopes may be raised only to be dashed again.
Regardless of whether you are near the san jose offices or not I believe that and comments you make are pure suposition and conjecture at the moment. Although as you say you are entitled to your opnion.
None of the "i want my house" group have mentioned under what conditions they would want this to happen. Surely if you are sending this message to the administrators then there should be some terms under which you would want this to happen...be careful for what you wish!
It is a valid point though.. have you sat down and all agreed under what conditions you would want your houses or does this just give carte blanche desire regardless of circumstance?
Personally I want my money back!!!!!!!!!!!! and the sooner the better
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Dear Sarah,
Thank you your comments. We can assure you we are behaving appropriately and are consulting with our members before releasing aims and objectives shortly.
TO ALL THOSE WHO WISH TO BE PART OF sarc & AND
TO ALL OUR MEMEBRS WHO HAVENT SUPPLIED THEIR EMAIL ADRESSES PLEASE DO SO ASAP SO THEAT WE CAN INCLUDE EVERYONE IN THE CONSULTATION PROCESS THE EMAIL ADDRESS SET UP TO CORDINATE THIS PROCESS IS.
santaanadelmonte@hotmail.com
either send private message via this site or directly to the email address we have documents that need to be accepted by yourselves also please supply plot numbers to cross reference whe we send you these documents as we need to finalise them for this weekend.
Brianmags R4 556
we want our house
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Hi Sahra,
if you have missread what I wrote or if I have not made it clear enough i will try to do so now. I used 2 very important words and they were " appear" that does not denote fact and "probably" which does not denote fact. I am used to writing reports for my Profession and if I failed to get across that this was not fact but a possability then I thank you for pointing this out and I will ensure that my postings are clear in future..
I could not respond properly earlier as i was leaving for work when I left my previous post.
All the best to you all
I want my House
Tony R17 18
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Crikey people
Have you met many professors? They have usually been in the academic environment all their lives and have little experience in the big bad world. One of my best friends is a prof., in Newcastle and he is very very brainy but not too well up on real life.
When the Alicante prof says 'If the client is included in the list and the amounts are correct, the client has no problem'.
I dont think he/she is recognising the different outcomes possible or the decisions the administrators may have to make. Just because it says i have no problem, dosnt make me feel any safer or better!!!!! Its just an observation that the law is being served, thats all.
By the way, the only way the hotel will sell is if its going to be a sound and going concern. If it sells, then it says that someone knows more than we do.
If its just put around that someone is going to buy it, then it could be its a confidence builder, could even be a kind of propoganda thing. No one in their right mind will spend 12m euros on a hotel on a site in early administration, dont fall for it.....is my advice. Look for clues!!!!!!
Just watch and see........
_______________________
Best wishes, Brian
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