Is the EU responsible for Brexit chaos

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06 Apr 2019 08:40 by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 5036 posts Send private message

I voted U.K. should remain in the EU  in the 1975 referendum.  

I am still in favour of the EU which U.K. joined.  However for me, the EU  has changed so much, and is probably determined to move further from the one U.K. voted for.  At some point in the future, when there maybe no escape route it will be too late.  I believe the EU’s overbearing, threatening, bullying attitude to uk’s application proves their intention to dominate and control member states

 I believe the answer was not U.K. leave but the EU revert to what it was in 1973 when U.K. joined.

 

 



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06 Apr 2019 09:39 by windtalker Star rating. 1528 posts Send private message

The so called EU...are not helping the UK one bit as they don't want us to leave ...the EU will without a doubt collapse when the UK leaves.





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06 Apr 2019 10:12 by ob123 Star rating in Southern Ireland. 179 posts Send private message

I think a lot of people are sorry now for voting to leave the EU, if they really knew the trouble and pain it brought the would have voted to stay in. a real mess no answers to solve the problem, they say in the papers today that May will be gone before April is out....... she's a pity between them all........

 


This message was last edited by ob123 on 06/04/2019.



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06 Apr 2019 11:08 by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 5036 posts Send private message

Orb.     “ ......   a lot of people are sorry now for voting to leave the EU, if they really knew the trouble and pain it brought the would have voted to stay in.......”

If one joins a group, say to protect one’s children from being the victims of drug pushers,  but after a while you realise it is that group which is importing the drugs,  to create the drug problem so they can ‘protect the kids.’   In reality though the plan is to recruit the parents into cells in the ‘protective’ group so that the group can then control the parents.  Wouldn’t  it be wise for the parents to get out when they could ?   To stay longer might mean they are threatened with kneecapping if they want to leave

Sound familiar ?

Replace ´kneecapping´ with all the bully boy threats being made by EU to U.K. the second largest country in the EU.  Just think what threats might be made against our tiny Ireland if we wanted to leave!  And NB Ireland is the tenth largest, so what if any of  the 18 minnows, smaller than us, wanted to leave?     No wonder they are all so anxious to `put on their jack boots, raise their right arm and march in line´ to obey their masters as others have done thoughout history.  (and which wasn't the formation of the EU supposed to put an end to in Europe)

Sometimes one needs to see what’s coming and get out before the inevitable happens. But maybe too late now that the tiny countries have seen what EU is doing to UK !

Dr Alice Weidel seems to be saying that too in the clip I attached.

 

PS.   Orb.   Guess you noticed I live in Spain.  I have dual nationality but only my Irish passport has been valid since 2010, long before any idea of Brexit  

 


This message was last edited by johnzx on 06/04/2019.

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06 Apr 2019 11:44 by mariedav Star rating in Ciudad Quesada. 886 posts Send private message

Pray tell, how can the EU be responsible for the Brexit chaos? Was it them who voted to kick UK out? No, it was the UK that for several reasons voted to leave.

The EU said, at the beginning, there are 3 things to sort out, the divorce bill, the rights of EU citizens in UK and the rights of UK citizens in the EU and, finally, any way of avoiding a hard border between the Irelands to keep the GFA safe.

18 months ago, it was all done and dusted with an agreement on all those points. Then the DUP in NI stepped in and said it was not viable as it would treat NI differently to UK. That would seem to mean that 10 MPs from NI are controlling the way Brexit is going.

Whether the rights and wrongs of the EU can be debated sensibly (and they can't because people start calling each other names like Remoaners and Brectums and the slagging starts straight away) is a moot point

What gets me is people from the UK blaming the EU for all the Brexit chaos. As if the EU is going to give everything to UK and not think about what effects it will have on the EU.

The way the government in UK have handled this is the real problem with Brexit. Davis only attending meetings for 4 hours in his tenure as Brexit negotiator, turning up at meetings unprepared for the EU doing its best for the EU and not for the UK (shock, horror). Plus  the following:
Liam Fox July 2017
The free trade agreement we will have to do with the EU should be one of the easiest in human history

John Redwood July 2016
Getting out of the EU should be quick and easy - the UK holds most of the cards in any negotiation.

Gerard Batten (UK Brexit negotiator) February 2017
Trade relations with the EU can be sorted out in an afternoon over a cup of coffee

And lots more like the above. No wonder it's turned into a farce with attitudes like that.

The fact that the UK is now becoming a laughing stock (New York Times "Has the UK gone mad?" - other world papers ranging from chaotic through debacle to idiotic) is a sad indictment on our politicians. 

No, the EU is not responsible for the Brexit chaos, the UK is responsible for the Brexit chaos.

 





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06 Apr 2019 13:09 by Marksfish Star rating in Vera, Almeria. 2502 posts Send private message

Marksfish´s avatar

"I voted U.K. should remain in the EU  in the 1975 referendum."

The EU didn't exist in 1975 though. The EU is something that has morphed into something very different than the trading agreement that was voted on then.





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06 Apr 2019 14:22 by ads Star rating. 3541 posts Send private message

Mariedav,

Perhaps I have misunderstood your meaning in your opening paragraph, but it seems strange to suggest that a country that uses an existing right to leave is solely responsible for the ENSUING chaos just because they used that right?

From a wider perspective frustration understandably abounds as much with the EU handling of Brexit as with the UKs.

Quotes from all quarters can be made to demonstrate failures on the one hand or perceived “ bullying” on the other etc,  which become emotive and have the potential to further alienate from all sides of the debate, but what is most important is to focus on understanding and resolving many complex issues in as constructive and mutually beneficial a fashion as possible going forward. 

Whether the complexities were purposeful to hinder options to leave or have been subsequently used in bad faith becomes another debating issue, but obviously this is dependent on individual perceptions and interpretation. 

I just wish more would be willing to view details from either side of the debate with more open minds, rather than closed minds based upon political tribal allegiances. Sometimes blimin tribal politics inhibits common sense rational thinking. So frustrating!

 

 





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06 Apr 2019 14:59 by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 5036 posts Send private message

“The EU didn't exist in 1975 though. The EU is something that has morphed into something very different than the trading agreement that was voted on then.”

Yes very good point.
 
No one had a say in its change and thus no reason to believe that in the future anyone would have a say in any other changes,  so all would be prisoners of the most powerful. 


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06 Apr 2019 15:58 by ob123 Star rating in Southern Ireland. 179 posts Send private message

Hi Guys I see what you mean by your inserts below, but really when all is said and done the UK will be in a bad way if they get out, why is there a huge demand to get Irish passports,





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06 Apr 2019 17:37 by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 5036 posts Send private message

Ob.  Just to clarify.  It is not just huge demand for Irish passports but for all EU passports by those who, though their ancestors can obtain them

And why?  Because most of us/them want the best of all possibilities

 


This message was last edited by johnzx on 06/04/2019.

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06 Apr 2019 17:46 by angeleyes1 Star rating in Camposol & Skegness. 217 posts Send private message

angeleyes1´s avatar

John how many passports do you have and what is the advantage and purpose of having multiple passports?



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06 Apr 2019 18:00 by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 5036 posts Send private message

if you had taken tad more time you would have seen I said, “I have dual nationality but only my Irish passport has been valid since 2010 ......” is 

Just to clarify.  My dual nationalities were from birth not as a result of an application or request 

 

 


This message was last edited by johnzx on 06/04/2019.

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06 Apr 2019 18:14 by angeleyes1 Star rating in Camposol & Skegness. 217 posts Send private message

angeleyes1´s avatar

Seems to me that one passport and nationality is sufficient for anyone. Anything more is trickery and manipulation.



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06 Apr 2019 18:36 by rma37 Star rating. 11 posts Send private message

Quote: No, the EU is not responsible for the Brexit chaos, the UK is responsible for the Brexit chaos.

Just to throw my two penn'orth in. My answer is yes, the EU is initially.

The EU has transformed into something unrecognisable from when it started decades ago. Had the UK been able and strong enough to change the way the EU is now working, I doubt we would have had a referendum at all. Unfortunately the self appointed 'leaders' of the EU have ignored the wishes of the UK people, only wanting us for our input of cash, and to impose many restrictions and laws of which we had no control over. Many EU countries have continually ignored EU law and encouraged migrants to pass through countries until they get to ours!

Leaving should have been simple. Give them a date, pay our bar bill and leave....end of story. We didn't vote to negotiate....where did that come from? However the government we are lumbered with  never wanted to leave in the first place. They have ignored the mandate of the country for the their own ends, and have persistently tried to delay and worse still, possibly cancel Brexit.

So my opinion  is both unfortunately, and what is so infuriating is that the EU still have the upper hand. A lot of remainers can now see them in their true colours and now want to exit asap. If you want something completely messed up, involve a politician!!





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07 Apr 2019 03:00 by Roberto Star rating in Torremolinos. 4376 posts Send private message

Roberto´s avatar

"self appointed 'leaders' of the EU" - actually, I believe MEPs are elected in much the same way as MPs in Westminster are - but most Brits don't really know much about the EU and most never vote in European elections. 

"the government we are lumbered with" - you mean, like a Prime Minister who was not actually elected by the people? Sounds a bit like your "self-appointed" leaders to me.

"A lot of remainers can now see them in their true colours and now want to exit asap" - interesting, I wonder what your source is for this "fact" (Daily Express, no doubt)

"Many EU countries have...encouraged migrants to pass through countries until they get to ours!" And THERE it is! The real reason for Brexit, and whatever chaos may ensue.

 

By the way John, do you have dual nationality? I can't remember if you've mentioned it recently....

 



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07 Apr 2019 03:56 by windtalker Star rating. 1528 posts Send private message

When the UK finally leave leave the EU who the Truck is going to run the country.





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07 Apr 2019 09:38 by rma37 Star rating. 11 posts Send private message

Roberto, before I respond to your comments, can you tell me if you actually live in the UK and voted in the referendum?





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07 Apr 2019 11:41 by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and FRance. 1605 posts Send private message

When Britain joined the Common Market as it was called in 1974 politicians in Britain knew quite well the purpose of the European project was political integration. It was also explained to the people if anyone cared to notice.

Anyone who understands the political process knows trade with other nation states creates a relationship that goes beyond buying and selling stuff to each other. There is a necessity to create a political, social and monetary relationship in tandem for a whole host of reasons.

Integration brings with it multi-faceted benefits to those involved. Political co-operation through shared aspirations instead of conflict. Free movement of peoples creates a larger workforce of people with similar values and enhanced understanding, tolerance and friendship.

During the last forty years, Britain’s governments contributed to that process of political integration. All Britain’s enlightened leaders from Wilson to Cameron and including Thatcher believed in the European project and signed many treaties to that aim. Britain was also successful in gaining many advantages and concessions from The EU along the way. Concessions that allowed Britain the full advantages of membership without the disadvantages of Schengen, monetary union and full budget contributions.

To claim now that people only believed in a common market ignores the democratic process that has taken place ever since 1974 and British accession.

Nothing the EU represents today has been achieved by anything less between the member states than democratic consultation, agreements and cooperation. It is disingenuous and quite untrue to claim otherwise.



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07 Apr 2019 12:49 by Kavanagh Star rating in Oil Drum Lane Newcas.... 439 posts Send private message

Kavanagh´s avatar

If the EU is the wonderful paradise you describe why did we ever have a democratic referendum and then vote to leave? Have you ever considered your statements are only your own personal opinions?



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07 Apr 2019 13:21 by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and FRance. 1605 posts Send private message

The referendum was called by Cameron because UKIP was threatening his party and he wanted a majority for his election instead of power sharing with the Lib Dems. It worked but he had to go through with it wrongly believing it was a 'slam dunk.' Bad politics. His mistake was to take UKIP seriously. The referendum simply gave them the platform they craved.

Isn't everything opinion, hopefully based on knowledge. Of course a knowledge base is obtained often from sources less than accurate. The trick is to realise whats real and what's phony. 



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