Is living in Spain really that bad now???

It’s up to those reading this thread and many other related threads to conclude one way or another whether living in Spain is that bad or not now, rather than be told how people should feel. Delivering the message with personal abuse on either side of the argument doesn’t result in swaying opinions however, in fact if anything it gives the impression of a divided society, which is equally sad.

Why on earth can't you guys work together to debate and try and resolve issues, if and where they exist (I'm not referring to just corruption or justice issues here but a wider range of issues that have been identified on this thread to include such things as consumer rights, the postal service/telephone service, crime, integration into local society, community issues ), and make Spain an even better place to live? It's all too easy to criticise on the one hand or make generalised statements about how rosy it is on the other without looking for realistic solutions to problems.

It would be so refreshing to hear you all talk about a positive way forward WITH SOLUTIONS through this difficult economic downturn instead of berating one another all the time. I would ask from an outside observer if you have any ideas of what you would like to see happen to gain improvements relating to the property market, how to ensure that errant developers are made accountable, how to eradicate those issues that give Spain a negative press, how to address pratical problems relating to post/telephone services, how can you improve integration into your local Spanish communities, is there any way that you can establish a support network for those who are struggling in Spain right now by for instance supporting local businesses.

Surely there are some good folk with ideas who could turn the negatives into positives (without being divisive yet again)?

Please forgive me folks but I want to direct you to an update that has just come through re the Spanish Property Scandal as we're looking for support and many have suggested within this thread that they are interested in helping in this regard. So please take an urgent look at the thread titled "Spanish Property Scandal" -  http://www.eyeonspain.com/forums/posts-long-10289.aspx for further info. and pass on the message to as many as you can. This is an ideal opportunity to bring this to the attention of MEP's.

 Dear All,

if the enthusiasts could accept others truthfully given experiences as fact, it would be a step forward and helpful to all including the budding and disappointed enthusiasts.

likewise if the disappointed victims sought not to distort the thread it may be recognised.

Regards

Norman

Dear All,

family back from Tenerife, all excellent and busy resort.

no contact with ex-pats.

Regards

Norman

Thought this would make interesting reading for you. 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304017404575165772111523794.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

I guess it is what happens when you put Mr Bean in charge!

Hi Max,

Thanks for the link.  I think the article gets it spot on.  The amount of debt the Spanish government has built up is scary:

Spain has $1 trillion in sovereign debt outstanding, and, according to Desmond Lachman, a scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, a gross external debt burden of "a staggering 135% of GDP…".

With a German led bailout unlikely, I think the only thing that will save Spain is the IMF.  Things will have to change once they are called in.

Hi Sanchez

What concerns me is the way that the governments are burying their heads in the sand and not facing up to the issues.

I see businesses closing down and people being put out on the streets.  But Spain is still importing foreign labour to pick crops etc.  Why?

A time for radical moves, methinks.

quote: Spain has $1 trillion in sovereign debt outstanding, and, according to Desmond Lachman, a scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, a gross external debt burden of "a staggering 135% of GDP…".unquote

Well, these Americans need to get together and get their stories straight.  According to the official US government website, Spain has an external debt of 50% to GDP (compared to UK 68.5%).  Germany with 77.2% is not really in a condition to bail anyone else out.  This is according to the CIA (as this is an intelligence gathering organisation, I would assume they know what they are talking about).

Full details can be found at this link

The frightening bit is the amount of personal debt which, in UK, is around 1.4 trillion pounds, almost twice as much as personal debt in any other European country.

Interesting comparison Bobaol but maybe this might explain a small part of the discrepancy with the Spanish statistic?

http://www.glgroup.com/News/Spain-public-debt-47493.html

The suggestion being that there is hidden government debt .......

Bobaol,

The link you include is for public debt - that´s not the same thing as external debt or sovereign debt. Germany returned to growth in Q2 of 2009 and is therefore able to service it´s sovereign debt. The same can´t be said about the PIGS hence the question mark over their ability to avoid defaulting. 

I posted it to show the difference all these so-called experts come up with.  I looked at six different sites and they all came up with different figures giving Spain anywhere from 57% to 94% debt to GDP.  Nowhere did I come up with 135%, however.

Isn't the problem the fact that things like GDP are such vague terms?.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gdp

Also Greece has been hiding its debt with the assistance of Goldman Sachs.  Who is to say that Zapatero isn't doing the same?

Surely there must be a better indicator than GDP, which seems to include internal trade in services.

If I as a solicitor assist you in a civil action and you as an accountant assist me with my accounts and each charges 1,000€ does that mean that we have contributed 2,000€ to the GDP? 

But we haven't exported anything!  With the money we think we have made, we buy a SsangYong or whatever.  What has China bought from us to "balance the books"?

It all seems Alice in Wonderland to me.

 Again Bobaol, I think you are confusing public debt with external debt. You say: 

"Spain has an external debt of 50% to GDP (compared to UK 68.5%).  Germany with 77.2% is not really in a condition to bail anyone else out.  This is according to the CIA..."

But that is not external debt, that is public debt. I don´t know what 6 sites you looked at but I guarantee you that 135% is on the conservative side. 180% would be about right.

Surely public debt (the amount owed by everyone in the country) should be the correct measure?

However, Wikipedia has external debt measured in two ways, the external debt against GDP and total debt divided by the population.  These figures, against GDP, gives Spain 150.65% and the UK as 365.4% which seems a bit much considering USA is only 94%.

Per person, Spain worked out at just under $50,000 but the UK as $150,673 per person (last years figures).

Luxembourg has a per person debt of $3970 but a percentage against GDP of 4,973%.

All these figures seem a bit silly to me.  I am not saying Spain is in a better condition than UK, far from it.  I just don't think quoting all these figures is very productive.  Bit like the unemployment figures in UK which will change depending on whether the Telegraph, the Times or the government is quoting them.  Much the same as all the experts who keep telling us having a low value currency is good for the country.  Taking this to its logical conclusion, Zimbabwes economy should be at the top and Germany should be the worst performing country of all.  Yes, I do understand that a low pound is good for exports but, as we export rather less than we used to, surely the cost of imports being higher would be even more detrimental to the country?

Anyway, all this high finance!  Gotta go and find somewhere to invest the £8 a month interest my savings are bringing in at the moment.  Oh, and phone the UK tax people (again) to find out why they are stopping 40% tax on my pensions even though I informed them (by letter and by phone) that I am no longer working and that these are now my only income.  You'll also be pleased to know I am no longer adding to the public debt in UK as I can't afford to buy anything at the moment.  Imported OR exported.

Ha ha - I wouldn´t argue with the UK figure. The country is on the road to absolute ruin. It has the worst economic data out of the entire G7. 

Is living in Spain really that bad now??? 

Having read this :  http://www.andalucia.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=23305&view=unread#unread...

I would say yes..it is that bad!

That makes me think about the huge increase in the UK of illegal dog fighting by the UK yob culture, and the people who have been beaten up for daring to speak out about it!

And also the UK yobs who hang around on street corners or spill out of pubs and beat someone up just because they happen to be there!

Crime is everywhere I'm afraid, but at least the Spanish Local Police and the Guradia Civil haven't got their hands tied when they try and deal with it!

So I would say... No! It is not!

Corruption is rife, the banks are a law unto themselves with the highest charges in Europe. Second hand cars cost a bloody fortune. Not even new cars appear to have indicators. Customer service is almost non-existent unless you pay a premium to shop in El Corte Ingles. Unchecked illegal immigration over the past decade has made places like Alcala de Henares feel like Eastern Europe. Terrestrial TV is supremely atrocious (imagine the Daily Mail animated)...

However, if you get on a bus or a train, people start chatting with you - unlike London where we all stare at the floor in case we get stabbed... I never hear about knife crime here. I´m not saying it doesn´t exist but it certainly isn´t anywhere near UK levels.

Even getting in or out of a lift people will say hello and goodbye. For my first few weeks here in a new job on the 8th floor in Madrid I thought people were mistaking me for someone else, what with all the salutations as people got in and out. 

Old folk will be out in the town squares at midnight playing dominoes, often in their slippers for some reason. My old Gran in Scarborough won´t leave the house after 4pm for fear of getting an empty beer can thrown at her head. She does her shopping at 10am when all the hoodies are safely in bed and most of the vomit and urine has been cleaned from the shop doorways.

The food is tremendous, the wine is cheap and the people are marvellous.

Life is very family orientated, great if you have kids.

My advice: Make learning Spanish a priority BEFORE you arrive. It´s a bit arrogant to expect an entire nation to learn your language. Not only will it make very basic stuff a lot easier; instructions, ingredients, accidents, but you´ll also get to see a side of Spain that holiday-makers miss out on, an entire culture opens up to you.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/files/2010/04/scary.jpg

Deny these facts TechnoApe, and you are living in Cloud Cuckoo land!

Sounds like Londoners are the main ones posting on EOS who have headed to Spain to flee the problems. Perhaps you should have taken a look up North to places like Cheshire and Cumbria (Lake District) where the people are incredibly friendly, and we have some lovely countryside (great to go walking in the hills each week).......don't recognise the picture you paint guys. Perhaps we're lucky in that regard.

I think the problems you describe about the yob culture in the UK need tackling head on by the next government if it's as bad as you describe. What would you like to happen? Any solutions to suggest apart from fleeing the country???

I think many European countries are going to find it tough in the next few years re unemployment if governments don't get their act together and citizens will have to face up to the reality that they will have to take cuts in their standard of living if their economy is to survive. People can't go on burying their heads in the sand in the hope that the problems will go away. Maybe a step back to reality was needed to make people wise up to living beyond their means, to recognise where our culture has gone wrong (driven by greed or at the other extreme, living off the state). Time to prioritorise what's important in life and recognise that money certainly isn't the be all in life. Some might say the selfish capitalist has met his day........ I still say Spain has yet to wake up to some pretty shady practices that are directly affecting large swathes of Spanish folk (heard today from a British MEP that the Ley de Costa Law is affecting some 400,000 householders of whom 80% approx are Spanish). Needs sorting.......