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I think it only fair to point out (again!) that London is not typical of the whole of the UK ........just spent an amazing week up in the Lake District (NW of England for those in ignorant bliss) with glorious sunny weather and views to die for! To balance this observation however I feel it only fair to relate that our neighbour also spent a glorious week near Granada in Spain. Surely there are good and bad aspects to living in both countries and bold generalisations do neither country any favours.  .
Interesting and honest observation from Georgia re the effort required re establishing any new home. I suspect that language is also a major factor with regard to feeling settled and part of any Spanish community.
In the main unfortunately us Brits are not the world's best (understatement) at making the effort re true integration which must play a significant part in the equation. Apologies for my own generalisation there (oops), and congrats however to those who have made that successful transition.
Just taken a look at Spanish Property Insight newsletter (am I allowed to say that?) and some of the statistics and facts re the Spanish housing market sadly make for uncomfortable reading right now (for instance mortgage tax relief to be abolished for primary residencies in 2011 and house prices being only half way there based on the fact that house prices in 2007 were overvalued to the tune of 37% ).
But on the other hand, for those looking for a lifestyle change then price is not the sole objective…….
Swings and roundabouts and all that, but this only goes to prove how important it is to do your homework prior to any decision making and to remove any rose tinted spectacles........
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It has been interesting to see the contributions of others to the dialog since I last contributed and I have no doubt that we are viewing the issue through “rose tinted glasses”, but don’t we all do that in some way or other? It’s known as personal preference.
I wasn’t really comparing Canterbury with Formentera. We live in a village a few miles from Canterbury, about the same size as Formentera, but the services and facilities on offer bear no comparison, except maybe for transport. The winner by a long chalk is at the Spanish end. However, a short bus ride (service every 10 minutes) and we are in Canterbury with its almost incomparable facilities. We don’t live there because of the 40,000 students and the appropriate provision of nightlife for the “valued” visitors and all that entails.
I am not trying to convince anyone that this area is heaven on earth; I am simply saying that for us, we like it here best. We have just spent the weekend in the Cotswolds and this morning spent time at an arboretum surrounded by the green and gold of autumn foliage – wonderful, but we have come back to a cold house exhibiting little cheer until we have it warmed through again.
I feel no right to attempt to change Spain, for my personal view of what is better. I feel desperately sorry for those who have been met with rough justice, of whom there are many, but consider that as a foreigner I have no franchise to complain about a system that was there when I came. It’s the Spanish way, although I do say this with the satisfaction of one who has not so far been ripped off. However, I consider that I have every right to rail against the drawbacks of my own country and will continue to do so with relish whenever the opportunity arises, which (with this Government) is every day, several times per day!
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I found this in an English newspaper,although it may cause a few ripples it does give an answer to the question asked by the original poster.
I know statistics can be taken with a pinch of salt but here you go..........
Good News? Britain 10 - Spain 2
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| WRITTEN BY MIKE WALSH |
| MONDAY, 19 OCTOBER 2009 13:16 |
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But it is not good news if you live in the United Kingdom. Yet another lifestyle report reveals that Britain is the worst of ten EU countries to live in. Spain claims second place with France taking first position.
The contents of Britain’s fatter wage packets, which is disputed, is cancelled out by longer working hours, the higher cost of living, foul weather, and a fractured social infrastructure.
Ten countries came under scrutiny, which included France, Spain, Germany, Italy, Sweden and Poland. The report compiled by uSwitch.com European Quality of Life Index reveals the best quality of life can be found in France and Spain. Even Ireland, suffering from the Celtic Tiger’s demise, came out ahead of the British Isles.
British workers spend more time on the hamster wheel, working three years longer than they do in France, and die two years younger at an average age of 78.9. Many fail to reach that milestone.
A BOOST FOR THE SPANISH HOMES MARKET?
With just 28 days leave a year those who are still working get less time off; again behind Spain’s workers who spend 41 days less at the coalface. Michael McLaughlin of southerncomfit.com homes in Spain says it may put a spike in the home buying graph but Spain has taken its eye off the ball. Several issues have taken the shine out of Spain’s sun index. Australia and New Zealand are more pro-active in attracting the hardworking and ambitious immigrants whilst the economies of others outside the eurozone means the British pension goes further in similar lifestyles than that of Spain's. The cost of living; fuel, transport and heating all cost more in the UK, and only one other country pays more for petrol. The need to use far more electricity for heating and lighting is made more acute for those living in the less than sceptred isle. They pay a third more for electricity.
Ann Robinson of uSwitch.com says: ‘There is more to good living than money; and this report shows why so many Brits are giving up on the UK and heading for France and Spain: ‘We earn substantially more than our European neighbours, but the higher level of income is needed to keep a roof over our heads, food on the table, and our homes warm.’
Many in Britain disagree with the report’s claim that the UK is the highest earning country. They point out that millions have much less than the average wage coming into their homes. The median wage in the United Kingdom is actually £26,000 but 60% of people fall under it, before tax and National Insurance deductions.
Ann Robinson adds: ‘The recession could prove to be a turning point, forcing us to revaluate our way of life, get back to basics and return to the things that really count.’
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www.taylorlandandpropertygroup.co.uk
still here after all these years!
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That's fascinating Georgia, thanks.
I'm in the process of reading a book called "Affluenza" that captures the way we are being snookered by the demands of 21st century living. It reveals how "consumerism, property fever and the battle of the sexes vary across societies with different values, beliefs and traditions. And leads us to an unavoidable and potentially life changing conclusion, that to ensure our mental health we can and must pursue our needs rather than our wants."
I agree that most folk making mention of working longer hours under stress etc is not the chosen way, so I would hope that politicians in the UK would take note of the article that you quote and recognise that public values are definately shifting.
Now to be a little contentious, just maybe you shouldn't have to necessarily move to another country to achieve "happiness", so maybe the way forward is to look for a simpler lifestyle, to stop comparing oneself with others, to recognise and strive for those aspects of your life that can provide more contentment and a feeling of well being, and then decide if you still find the need to permanently leave your homeland.
Only a thought.
This message was last edited by ads on 21/10/2009.
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ads
I think a particular location is often linked to a mental attitude at that time. If a change of location brings more peace of mind or general happiness, then that location will no doubt seem a nicer place to be. For someone else the opposite location could have the very same effect? If a certain area is more in tune to your idea of happiness with regards to pace of life/geographic location/state of mind etc, then I think it's sometimes to easy to turn a blind eye to faults that others might be more effected by and so find unnaceptable.
Each to his/her own and all that, but I feel we should all be as honest as possible about the pro's and cons of different areas, in respect to those who might well be finding that your heaven could be their hell for what ever reason? If everyone would accept that and offer support to those who might be going through hell in your heaven, then I think far more of those wronged would feel their situation is being seen for the reality it is.
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If you really analyse what constitutes happiness, security comes high on the list, so in that regard both Spain and the UK, indeed the Western World for that matter, have quite a way to go before achieving any shangri-la.
Western Governments should take note of society's major insecurities and strive to collectively respond and achieve a better balance than we have right now...........but that's another debate entirely.
In the interim let's hope that Spain manages to clean up its act before any further downward spiral occurs, honestly and courageously recognise where they have gone wrong, and move a little further towards the shangri-la that everyone recognises might just be possible given its wonderful geographical location and hopefully its welcoming society of people.
Ever the optimist!
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Hi Ferpups
I bought off-plan several years ago no problems whatsoever in small town market, the locals are warm & friendly and could'nt ask for anymore. I can't wait for the day I finally say goodbye to England the striking binmen, postmen and firemen etc. The weather here is absolutley crap cold and wet.
What will I miss?
Nothing!
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Roddy & Tracie
Leeds/ Balsicas
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Not even family and friends roddy1? 
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with that attitude, i'm guessing not many will be sad to see him go? 
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Hi Ads
No why would I miss them I have plenty of spanish friends, a 3 bedroom house for visitors, cheap flights to spain!
_______________________
Roddy & Tracie
Leeds/ Balsicas
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Goodstitch44
Just because you 2 made a mess of it and are possibly in denial on your mistakes!
I used to have sympathy for your cause, but not no more I pity you!
What will it be next year EOB Eye on Bulgaria.
_______________________
Roddy & Tracie
Leeds/ Balsicas
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What attitude ?
Surely what was said is that he Roddy happy with his lot in Spain and points only one of the many problems that the U.K have and many more to follow I fear.
Miss Family ? Its hardly Australia is it.
Rose tinted glasses is on both sides. Why is it that Spain seems to attract only bad news in the views of some and the media.
Yes its got problems
The legal system . Better than the U.K in some ways however not with corruption.
The exchange rates . That can work the opposite but we only hear the negatives
Petty crime is increasing . Tell me where its not
Falling property prices Again thats a monopoly at the moment in many countries.
Rising Prices So just in Spain ?
What I can understand is that if its that bad. Why did many buy or look to buy there anyway.
Why is it that the Brits moan about Spain and the Spanish keep accepting it. If they moaned about the Brits in anything like we do then what future would that bring for the thousands that move to their country.
Moaning Bloody Brits. If they havent got something to moan about they will soon find it.
The Spanish in the main welcome the Brits so lets have some sort of appreciation of that on the forum.
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roddy1
Thanks. You have confirmed my long held opinion about what a stupid selfish person you are.
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Oh dear, seems we've lost any intellectual debate by personalising again. Please keep it civil everyone.
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ads
yes, you're right, but to be accused of being in ''denial of mistakes'' or ''made a mess of it'' beggers belief in my case which I won in court!! 
getting back to the thread
ads said
'In the interim let's hope that Spain manages to clean up its act before any further downward spiral occurs, honestly and courageously recognise where they have gone wrong, and move a little further towards the shangri-la that everyone recognises might just be possible given its wonderful geographical location and hopefully its welcoming society of people.
Ever the optimist!
..........now isn't that what we all want. And why couldn't it happen with a few changes from the top that would hopefully work downwards. Spain's a fabulous country, run by a bunch of muppets.............................what's that............much like the UK do I hear!!
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Crikey! I have just slipped down to the doctors to get my (free) flu jab and by the time I have returned there is a fight going on!
Having just retired, with plenty of time on our hands (joke), we now have to look forward to existing on a fixed income. Luckily, having worked hard for 52 years, I have managed to amass sufficient in pension to not cut too hard (in spite of the insurance industry and Brown plundering my funds). However, as time passes, we will gradually slip behind the curve and the economies we have made (only one car, no long distance flights etc) will not be sufficient. Even so, it’s hard to realise that all those indulgencies are in the past and there are many dear friends on other continents that we may never see again.
Our main luxury at present is our bolt hole in Spain. We can just about afford to keep it going and the necessary travel costs associated have yet to hit us too hard. We had intended to live in Spain, but as I said some posts ago, we find that it just doesn’t suit us. It’s not Spain that’s at fault, but we have come to recognise that we just don’t want to change. Call us little Englanders if you like, but we do have the choice and there is no shame in choosing.
Everywhere has its drawbacks, surely we can agree that if you like Spain, that’s fine and if you prefer the UK, that’s fine too, just think what would happen if say 40 million Brits decided to love Spain and go move there, hardly bears thinking about.
Yes, we Brits do moan! We have all heard of whinging pom’s. I blame it on the weather, I think that when we are in a country with a nicer climate we miss a good whinge. I do feel that Spain has some faults, but unless they result in some injustice to me, I don’t see it as my place to complain, many others do that with great justification. On the other hand the UK has a few faults too (another joke!), but at least it’s my country and I feel that I have a right to stand up, object and yes, whinge as much as I want. It’s the way we bring our politicians to account.
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Looking at this totally dispassionately.
Family and friends- much depends on how regularly you see one another and how important it is that you retain close contact. We all have differing needs but it is a concept that requires great thought before you commit to any permanent move (as opposed to a holiday home scenario). That's all that I was meaning in repsonse to the previous reply.
Security - much depends on what circumstance you are (or have been) experiencing in Spain. For those who have not had any bad experience then obviously they can only speak as they find. But likewise for those who have sadly been at the butt end of a legal system which is without doubt in crisis. Where we hopefully can learn from one another via forums such as this is to try and spare others a repeat of the pitfalls and endeavour not to be too judgemental or make too many bold generalisations along the way (from each side of the argument).
It's sad that whenever anyone forewarns of bad instances or identifies the genuine need for change that it is deemed as " moaning". Or for that matter whenever anyone says anything that is remotely critical. There is a succinct difference here and to make a link between genuine forewarning and striving for solutions with the accusation of wishing to put Spain down is wrong in my eyes. Any intellectual debate should allow the other the right to put their viewpoints forward, but to boldly write off criticism, or for that matter to write off positives does no-one any favours on this forum.
There are far too many instances of defensive over-reactions within some of these threads, which is understandable, given the strong emotions involved when people's life savings are at stake, (or for that matter when people's livlihoods are at stake), but please recognise that the only way to solve problems in the longer term is to rationally discuss them and try to establish common ground to the benefit of all. It is possible so long as you guys stop personalising the issues, or being over defensive.
Back to the topic........ I do think that living in Spain has potentially much to offer but my personal insecurities as they stand right now make me extremely wary and unfortunately outweigh the positives. I'm not happy to admit that by any means, but it's an honest take on the legal system. I, and I suspect many others, were desperately hoping that things would have been turned around sufficiently to remove these outstanding insecurities by now (several years down the line), and the fact that there are those still fighting hard for this change is not a negative, it's a potential massive positive for the longer term benefit of Spain.
So please let the thread topic "is living in Spain really that bad now" be addressed without jumping down one anothers' throats.
p.s. Just seen your posting since I wrote this, xetog, and I can so relate to your observation "It’s the way we bring our politicians to account. ".
This message was last edited by ads on 21/10/2009.
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Goodstich 44
Who is in denial.Please explain , debate and as ads said keep it civil
Ads you are right. Goodstich 44 is clearly getting personal with Roddy and for what ?
Yes Goodstich44. We all know about your case and we support you all the way in this matter however Spain is more about Goodstich 44
Yep I feel that there are muppets in Spain and the U.K running the Country
Tell me a country that does not.
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xetog
that's an interesting and well balanced post, and the last part of your post is something that's puzzled me for years? With the damage done by the faults of those at the top in Spain, why don't the Spanish people stand up and complain about it more? As you say, it's the way we bring our politicians to account. Can you imagine if we didn't complain and let our government get away with what they like for however long they like? The recent corruption in the UK has rightly caused uproar, but is that corruption as serious as what has happened to the Spanish property industry?, yet you hardly hear a sqeak from the Spanish themselves?
It's a different culture of course, with a very different political background, but people power can move mountains, and until the Spanish rise up in anger in masses, are their government likely to bring the much needed changes to encourage Spains recovery? You would think so as surely it would be in their interest also, but they still seem set on a path of self desruction with regards to the property industry.
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