Should there be a second referendum?

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01 Dec 2018 10:53 by Gipsy Rover Star rating. 1 posts Send private message

The people should be given another chance now that they are aware of the full implications of withdrawing from the EU

The original referendum was completely unfair as the voters were deliberately misled into believing their country would benefit by coming out.

Kathleen.





Like 3      
01 Dec 2018 10:55 by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and FRance. 1755 posts Send private message

A referendum or plebiscite is not the same thing as a general election.

A referendum is a method, previously agreed by parliament of obtaining the electorates views on one issue. Referendums are only advisory and not binding on the government.

Britain has a representative democracy in the form of parliamentary representatives who may have opinions on a whole broad range of issues. Political parties are a broad church and are supposed to also encompass a wide range of different opinions. Then come to a decision by majority that is best for the nation.

Parliament is sovereign not the result of a plebiscite. Of course a government, if it’s wise may follow the referendum result to the letter. However it is quite entitled and indeed required to carry that out in the least damaging way for the country.

On the other hand a democracy has the right to self-harm if voters really know the score. To achieve that alone a second ref should be held.

 

 


 


This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 01/12/2018.

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Like 4      
01 Dec 2018 13:06 by Jarvi Star rating in Halifax UK. 664 posts Send private message

I agree with Tricky

Now we are all more informed and we know what we will get. Lets have another referendum.

2 questions on it - Accept the deal on offer or leave with no deal.

There cannot be a third option of staying in, that one has been democratically decided already so that is not a choice.





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01 Dec 2018 13:17 by windtalker Star rating. 1558 posts Send private message

Gypsy Rover ...I voted out for the Same reason every one else did ...and it was to stop uncontrollable unregulated  immigration from the EU overloading the UK infrastructure... the UK NHS / Social security / Council housing that is completely Brocken down. was put in place to serve the needs of the British public not the whole of the EU...when the UK finally gets to control who is coming into the country and who can stay ..only then will you see a improvements in the NHS and so forth as foreigner's from the EU will not be eligible to draw of a system that they have not paid into ...now why did you Gypsy Rover vote to stay in.

 

 


 

 


This message was last edited by windtalker on 01/12/2018.



Like 2      
01 Dec 2018 13:47 by Kavanagh Star rating in Oil Drum Lane Newcas.... 580 posts Send private message

Kavanagh´s avatar

But Windy 

EU citizens will become the same status as current non EU citizens and have priority to UK NHS / Social security / Council housing, all for free without contributing a bean.

I think you are falling for the spin ‘’controlling our borders’’ 70% of UK immigration is non EU.



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Like 1      
01 Dec 2018 13:58 by Chrissie1 Star rating in UK. 385 posts Send private message

Chrissie1´s avatar

I am not surprised about how selfish the EU are. It would not do for them to make it a nice arrangement otherwise more would be believing in their own countries and looking for a brexit of their own. It has to be made awkward !!! 



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Like 2      
01 Dec 2018 14:07 by jeffsears Star rating. 36 posts Send private message

Rights to UK benefits and NHS is residency based and not contribution based. 

So anybody residing in the UK is entitled to everything.

The UK could have changed its rules to be in line with Europe but succesive governments declined to do so.

Cynics might say that they were frightened of finding out exactly how many illegal immigrants are in the UK.





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01 Dec 2018 14:13 by windtalker Star rating. 1558 posts Send private message

Kavanagh...maybe we should do a Trump and start building a wall...we could start with reinstating Hadrian's wall to keep the Scot's out as the SNP seem to be want to be classed as European's and not Scottish / British  anymore...funny thing that as being a Scott myself I have always considered my self to be British.





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01 Dec 2018 14:14 by baz1946 Star rating. 2079 posts Send private message

I voted OUT, not for one particular reason like uncontrolled immigration from outside of the EU bad enough as that is,  I didn't like the way the EU was almost totally controlling us and not one MP stood up to the EU, so the chance of getting away was like a breath of fresh air.

When the referendum was first spoken of I will admit I was more then nieve as to how it would work out to leave, I was of the great misunderstanding that OUT was OUT, no if's but's or anything else, now years after its plain to see not that simple, and thats all down to the EU of doing its utmost to put the block on us leaving and I still stand firm on my belief its down to the money they will lose, and others will / might want out also.

One thing I have learnt by all this is if we did have another vote, maybe likely,  maybe not, I would vote OUT again due to the way the governing powers of the EU have shown their true colours.

 





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01 Dec 2018 14:29 by pjck Star rating. 37 posts Send private message

Chrissie1. By "nice arrangement" do you understand breaking Europen rule of four freedoms? No, access to the single market requires acceptance of all four freedoms. You cannnot pick up what is convenient for you.

And by the way, you will still have immigration from non-EU countries (which is 70% of all immigrants), believe me. They will come by boats, they will come for forced marriages from certain countries (yes, we all know form which ones), they will come to "study" (and then they will disappear), they will come as "refugees" (from the territories where there is no war) etc.
But yes, they will be less competitive for a huge group of local lazy, uneducated voters. Not like those from poorer European countries who come with £50 in their pockets and in a week's time are employed, work continously and even end up buying a house in few years.

Well. in regards of NHS - most of them avoid going to British GP's as they say they can "prescribe" Paracetamol for themselves on their own. And go to a dentist when back in Budapest or Cracow. Top class and much cheaper. 





Like 3      
01 Dec 2018 15:16 by Chrissie1 Star rating in UK. 385 posts Send private message

Chrissie1´s avatar

I didnt vote OUT for immigration purposes because every one deserves a life. We all know immigration is a big issue but whilst we have other countries willing to bomb the hell out of the so called poorer families this is likely everyones problem. Its just a shame they cant settle in say Russia or Korea.

The EU are clearly a selfish bunch and given the chance I still would vote OUT. I for one dont want to be part of the EU. I suspect they already have a list of "you cant have this because your not part of the EU". True colours indeed. The UK will always be generous whether we are in or out and we have a lot to offer.



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01 Dec 2018 15:52 by Kavanagh Star rating in Oil Drum Lane Newcas.... 580 posts Send private message

Kavanagh´s avatar

That is a god post pjck. I do believe the referendum was partly racist motivated and it was totally misleading and the immigration issue is only believed by the gullible bigot mad racist brigade. In or out of the EU won’t make the slightest bit of difference to UK immigration other than more bureaucratic paper shuffling. Let’s face facts; the UK is riddled with non EU nationalities. One gets in then the whole village arrives next week for more NHS treatment and more council houses. Is that what you call taking control of our borders?

EU citizens mainly come to the UK to work for a better way of life, and of course Billy Brit with sticky mattress disease will blame anybody and everybody why he/she has no job and lives on benefit with only a 40 inch SkyTV, 5 kids, 20 regal and a can of Stella to get by on.

This immigration issue works both ways, what are you going to do when you go to the doctor’s surgery sick and get told Dr Gupta has left the country.

No government has ever controlled immigration because it’s an easy fix to won’t work Brits and lack of skills. Nothing will change after BREXIT, you are being conned.



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01 Dec 2018 16:31 by pjck Star rating. 37 posts Send private message

Chrissie1 I don't say you voted out for immigration purposes. However - others did. And some of them think it will even stop uncontroled immigration from the Third World (well, they even don't know who is in Europe)!

When it come to EU, it is not and it will never be perfect. Like any other organization or alliance. But we all have the power to change it (UK had even bigger I think) or to stop some unwanted changes. Like the idea of Angela Merkel of more power for European Parliament instead of national parliaments. It won't go.
And there are some profits which are unquestionable - freedom of movement (we still have powers to stop those illegals - we just need to use them) and exchange of goods and services.





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01 Dec 2018 16:47 by baz1946 Star rating. 2079 posts Send private message

  • There is no such thing as an ‘illegal’ or ‘bogus’ asylum seeker.Under international law, anyone has the right to apply for asylum in any country that has signed the 1951 Convention and to remain there until the authorities have assessed their claim.
  • There is nothing in international law to say that refugees must claim asylum in the first country they reach. A European regulation allows a country such as the UK to return an adult asylum seeker to the first European country they reached. This means that countries on the edge of Europe have responsibility for a lot more asylum seekers than others. Some of the countries through which people travel to get to Europe are not safe places and many have not signed the Refugee Convention, meaning that people who remain there will not get international protection and be able to rebuild their lives.  
  • It is recognised in the 1951 Convention that people fleeing persecution may have to use irregular means in order to escape and claim asylum in another country – there is no legal way to travel to the UK for the specific purpose of seeking asylum. (United Nations 1951 Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees)
  • The top ten refugee producing countries in 2015 all have poor human rights records or on-going conflict. Asylum seekers are fleeing from these conflicts and abuses, looking for safety. 
    (UNHCR, 2014 Global Trends: World at War
  • In 2014, worldwide, 34,000 children applied for asylum having arrived in the country of refuge alone, with no parent or guardian. 1,945 of these applications were made in the UK. Many of them come from Eritrea, which was recently condemned by the UN for gross human rights violations. (Report of the Commission of Inquiry on Human Rights in Eritrea, 2015)
  • Many refugees and asylum seekers hope to return home at some point in the future, if the situation in their country has improved. 
  • The 1951 Refugee Convention guarantees everybody the right to apply for asylum. It has saved millions of lives. No country has ever withdrawn from it.

These are not my words but from an immgration site.





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01 Dec 2018 17:02 by pjck Star rating. 37 posts Send private message

So - let in everybody.

Just liquidate border control - maybe they come to claim asylum and they have a right to stay in the UK until their claim is assesed by the authorities.

By the way - I said "illegals", not "illegal asylum seekers". 





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01 Dec 2018 17:28 by baz1946 Star rating. 2079 posts Send private message

By the way - I said "illegals", not "illegal asylum seekers". 

And the difference between the two is what exactly?





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01 Dec 2018 17:47 by Kavanagh Star rating in Oil Drum Lane Newcas.... 580 posts Send private message

Kavanagh´s avatar

What border control is there to liquidate? The UK has got the lot. The horse has bolted.



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Like 1      
01 Dec 2018 18:27 by pjck Star rating. 37 posts Send private message

No difference? So as I said - let them all in. Nobody should be stopped on the border.





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02 Dec 2018 08:36 by windtalker Star rating. 1558 posts Send private message

The the main reasons for calling for a new referendum is coming from scare mongering ...that is being spread around by the very people that are being paid ...to so call run the UK economy ( MPs )these people like the Minister of Fisheries / Minister of Farming and so on... are in highly paid So call Jobs for the boys they are nothing more than shadow Minister's with no powers that have to take orders from the EU ...they are not capable of doing the job they are in themselves not one of them has a business bone within them  the majority are professional politicians that have never work in private industry or had a real job  ...this country is being run by Businessmen & Banker's that have the know how to pick up a phone a arrange a deal ...so why aren't MPs listening to these people .

 

 

 

 

 


This message was last edited by windtalker on 02/12/2018.



Like 2      
02 Dec 2018 09:27 by Kavanagh Star rating in Oil Drum Lane Newcas.... 580 posts Send private message

Kavanagh´s avatar

** EDITED - Against forum rules **how do you know these things?

 


This message was last edited by eos_moderators on 02/12/2018 22:30:00.

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