Bank Repossessions Again

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07 Nov 2018 12:22 by hugh_man Star rating in Kent/Roda . 1455 posts Send private message

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Amazing that Banks continue to flaunt their Community responsibilities and legal rights by entering a property on repossession but refusing to provide documentation to our Administrator to conform change of ownership.

This received from our Administrator after reports spoof a bank entering a property with long term debt.

 

”Yes, the bank came to Roda to take possession, but we have not yet received any formal documentation that confirms new ownership. 
I have requested the documentation on more than one occasion but have yet to have a reply. 
This property has a debt of €15,841.64 and a partial write-off of €9,002.96.
So until we receive official paperwork we won´t know when they actually became owners which means that until we do I don´t know how much of the I can claim back from the bank. 
The remaining debt that doesn’t belong to the bank will not only be in the previous owners' section but is most likely to be a complete write-off.”





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07 Nov 2018 13:01 by Kavanagh Star rating in Oil Drum Lane Newcas.... 298 posts Send private message

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Unfortunately Spain is ‘‘do as you want land’’ no matter what the story is. It would seem Banks are current Spanish premier league champions with the largest silverware display cabinet.

Until the media press are prepared to name and shame their abuse it will go on forever.



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07 Nov 2018 16:11 by ads Star rating. 3420 posts Send private message

Aren't notaries legally obliged to register these details of new ownership and all associated debt at point of transfer? Is this not a mandatory requirement?

Can the Community Administrator thereafter not request formal identification of such details for any given apartment, (via a legal representative if required) from any such register?

 


This message was last edited by ads on 07/11/2018.



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07 Nov 2018 17:02 by hugh_man Star rating in Kent/Roda . 1455 posts Send private message

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Are banks required to notify a Notary if they are effecting a repossession if a property or do they just have to have a court agreement?

It may be possible that a Notary is involved ONLY when the banks decides to get around to completing the paperwork.

i thought we had been informed that an official repossession was effective once Banks agents entered a property or changed the locks, but it seems to change as Kavanagh suggests to suit the banks.





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07 Nov 2018 17:25 by ads Star rating. 3420 posts Send private message

Is there no MANDATORY legal requirement for Notaries to register transfer of ownership and record outstanding debt?





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07 Nov 2018 17:48 by Kavanagh Star rating in Oil Drum Lane Newcas.... 298 posts Send private message

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The traditions of Spain do not recognise the words, mandatory, legal or requirement. When will you discover, it is a situation of anything will do whenever, and if you don’t like it ‘’tough’’.

Spain may have more laws, rules and regulations than any other country in the world. But if they are worthless and you cannot effectively enforce them what are you going to do? Engage a meal ticket lawyer for a 10 year court case? Write to the EU court of justice? Or email Benny Hill? The dilemma with numerous Brit expats is that they enjoy the laid back ‘’could not care less culture’’ but only when it agrees with them.

Fred Scutlle Spain legal adviser


This message was last edited by Kavanagh on 07/11/2018.

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07 Nov 2018 19:15 by ads Star rating. 3420 posts Send private message

If only it were so simple....

This is not just Spain but a concern plaguing the EU legal system with regard to the principle of mutual trust between member states which forms the cornerstone of the area of freedom, security and justice.

But that's a far wider debate for another time no doubt. ;)

 


This message was last edited by ads on 07/11/2018.



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08 Nov 2018 01:01 by hugh_man Star rating in Kent/Roda . 1455 posts Send private message

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I agree with all, many rules and regulations in many countries and regions are utterly unenforceable these days should an individual or business or profession choose to ignore the legislation and this eventually becomes the norm and accepted.

i have certainly witnessed this in Spain more than the U.K. but have no doubt, we all have problems.

The very fact that NO penalty for perjury exists in Spain, encourages defendants to go the whole way on the off chance they might get a favourable decision.

If there is nothing more to lose than the case itself, why not try it on.

It appears there is NO recourse for Communities either when banks act in their own interests.

Yes Communities will eventually get paid as the Law states they must in the end but the delays and procrastination must be frustrating to many.

In answer to Ads, yes No doubt Notaries must be involved at some stage but we all know their weaknesses and the question remains, at what stage?

Is it when the bank seems to complete the paperwork?

 


This message was last edited by hugh_man on 08/11/2018.



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08 Nov 2018 01:43 by ads Star rating. 3420 posts Send private message

Hugh man

What were the details relating to the partial write off of debt that you mentioned? Is this time related?





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08 Nov 2018 10:23 by hugh_man Star rating in Kent/Roda . 1455 posts Send private message

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The partial write off is incidental, our Community tries to be prudent over aged debt and the whole amount dates back to 2008, legal processes revealed no other assets or liklehood of recovery.

What surprises me is how long the banks allow any mortgage debt to mount up before repossession of a property.

Yes we expect to receive current year plus 3 previous years of fees at some stage because that is the law.

What is disputable is the date that actual repossession takes place on, banks have a habit of advising Communities only when they wish to and have tried selling on some apartments with debts rathe4 than meeting their responsibilities.

I have noted La Caixa are particularly bad but that may be as they own more mortgages than others.





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08 Nov 2018 11:21 by mariadecastro Star rating in Algeciras (Cadiz). 9093 posts Send private message

Legal Questions? Speak to Maria Direct

Aren't notaries legally obliged to register these details of new ownership and all associated debt at point of transfer? It is not an obligation of Notaries. It is a right of new owners to register ownership in Land Registry but still it is not an obligation. It compromises their legal safety as Land Registry gives publicity to your owenerhip rights. Is this not a mandatory requirement? It is not. It is voluntary. Anyhow, if there ar elements of proof to know that there is a ne owner in the Community, you can call it-- with judicial call if necessary--- to start contributing to Community fees as there is no need of registration in Land Registry for this.

Can the Community Administrator thereafter not request formal identification of such details for any given apartment, (via a legal representative if required) from any such register? Yes, the Community has rights to request payment from whover is proved owner of the property. Not easy task though. 



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08 Nov 2018 13:18 by ads Star rating. 3420 posts Send private message

Thank you Maria.

So the bottom line in practical terms is that due to all manner of reasons within the existing conveyancing system relating to lack of timely enforcement to make the Banks accountable for their repossessed properties ongoing debt, leaves all other owners within the community at risk of having to meet the shortfall of monies for increasingly lengthy periods of time. 

So innocent owners are effectively paying the price for the Banks ongoing debts in the form of substantial increases in community fees depending on the number of Banks repossessed properties within their community.

Is this correct?

If so, then this will inevitably have a spiralling downward impact on gaining sales, as once these realities associated with Banks outstanding debts due to any community becomes clear,  it leaves all owners exposed to  an open cheque scenario going forward! 

So long as this remains unresolved ( and difficult to enforce) won’t this negatively impact the Spanish economy leaving many existing communities sadly at growing risk of becoming ghost communities? 

This together with other issues relating to timely enforcement to make Banks accountable and disrespect of precious case law that has taken years to develop, is sadly undermining trust in the Spanish Banks, the real estate conveyancing and judicial systems going forward.





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08 Nov 2018 15:38 by Kavanagh Star rating in Oil Drum Lane Newcas.... 298 posts Send private message

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Spot on ads, you got it. Now get the other bit, the authorities are not interested.



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08 Nov 2018 15:55 by ads Star rating. 3420 posts Send private message

Sadly this will probably only be resolved when it impacts the Spanish economy as the message and stark realities are relayed to the media in any organised manner by good administrators, exposing the growing vulnerabilities born from lack of timely enforcement, etc.

And in the interim it would be reassuring to know that good lawyers remain willing to make their own representations to those independent organisations that are monitoring the effects where precious case law and the rule of law is being undermined.





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08 Nov 2018 16:16 by Kavanagh Star rating in Oil Drum Lane Newcas.... 298 posts Send private message

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Lawyers are not interested; the shambles of the legal system is their meal ticket. You are asking Turkeys to vote for Christmas.

** EDITED **

 


This message was last edited by eos_moderators on 08/11/2018 23:27:00.

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ALWAYS BE POLITE & FRIENDLY. PLEASE AVOID ARGUMENTS & CONFRONTATIONS. PLEASE PM ME IF YOU HAVE AN ISSUE.



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08 Nov 2018 18:46 by hugh_man Star rating in Kent/Roda . 1455 posts Send private message

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Both make valid points.

Yes the authoritiescare complacent and not interested.

If it got too regimented, banks may have to declare the real value of their not so valuable assets and this would most likely show how precarious their balance sheets really are.

No one wants that.

As Kavanagh has said, the majority of owners stick their heads in the sand and enjoy their holiday homes without questioning the sometimes high fees they are having to pay to support any shortfall.

So far the Spanish economy has not been adversely affected by this revelation, mainly because new buyers have NO idea how it works and just want to enjoy their dream home.

What has proved quite successful to many Communities is to increase fees massively if agreed by AGM so the current debt the bank will have to pay will increase, whilst offering big discounts to the regular good payers, thereby removing some of the burden from them.





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09 Nov 2018 11:50 by ads Star rating. 3420 posts Send private message

Hugh man

If the Banks continue to refuse to pay the increased fees until they sell, then all that will happen is the increased accumulated debt will either be written off depending on timeframes ( still compromising owners ), or the new unsuspecting purchaser will be paying way over the odds at point of purchase to meet the Banks increased debt set against the property. 

Is this correct?

If so, this does not appear to make the Banks accountable so long as they refuse to pay,  irrespective of the amount being charged.

I can see how increasing fees can work for individual debtors however, given they are presumably still using the property ( rented or otherwise), and can be denied access to pool areas etc if they continue to refuse to pay, as agreed by majority vote. 

Questions remain however....

Does this tactic to increase community fees act as disincentive in the case where the Bank has repossessed and is renting out in the interim? 

Are they able to rent out if they have not declared that they own the property?

Are local authorities also financially compromised by their failure to declare ownership?

In terms of educating new buyers, is it time for administrators to whistle blow all of these compromising details to the foreign office who are already forewarning potential purchasers of problems on their website?....

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-to-buy-property-in-spain#legal-advice

 


This message was last edited by ads on 09/11/2018.



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09 Nov 2018 13:33 by Kavanagh Star rating in Oil Drum Lane Newcas.... 298 posts Send private message

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The foreign office is restricted to what it can say and post on its website. Diplomacy will dictate that it does not post any critical remarks about another country even if they are entirely conscious of erroneous activities.



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09 Nov 2018 16:24 by ads Star rating. 3420 posts Send private message

I’m sure something could be worded to be factual and advisory, just as currently exists....

The introduction specifies...

”This guide sets out essential information for British nationals wanting to buy property in Spain, including advice on legal advice, buying in certain areas, complaints and more. It should be read together with the ‘How to buy property abroad’ guide.”

Administrators could explain the whole scenario to the Foreign Office and allow them to decide how to update the website accordingly.

To repeat, the informative website is as follows and covers many aspects to assist and forewarn those thinking of purchasing in Spain.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-to-buy-property-in-spain#legal-advice

 





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09 Nov 2018 17:27 by Kavanagh Star rating in Oil Drum Lane Newcas.... 298 posts Send private message

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What the Foreign & Commonwealth Office (FCO) can do

The FCO and British Embassies/High Commissions overseas have no jurisdiction or authority to become involved in private legal matters overseas, including those connected to property and financial disputes, nor can we intervene in the processes of another country or mediate on your behalf.



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ALWAYS BE POLITE & FRIENDLY. PLEASE AVOID ARGUMENTS & CONFRONTATIONS. PLEASE PM ME IF YOU HAVE AN ISSUE.



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