Donald Trump immigration ban

It's a fact of life these days that it's impossible to avoid the lunatic fringe.  But how else are good people who object to racists like Trump supposed to democratically protest?

Not everyone wants to bury their head in the sand for the next 4 years,

If you kowtow to people like Trump he'll grow in confidence and get worse.

So IMHO you are blaming the symptom, not the cause.

Acer

I do not wish to be cornered into defending Trump but you are doing the same as the other hysterical people. If you want to call someone a racist you must justify it. Last time I tried to find some justification for the statement that he was a 'misogynist racist' I found that he had 3 femail CEO's one of whom was an African American.

It is often said what happens in USA often happens tomorrow in UK

Monkey see, Monkey do.

Tteedd,

I'm not trying to trap you into anything.

To recap you were using emotive words to denounce demonstrators.  But the fact is that peaceful demonstration has become a legally recognised human right and thankfully an accepted part of the British way of life for hundreds of years.  

There's always been a few hotheads in varying degrees and ways.  When the suffragette movement was formed they had a long periods of being ignored, there were lots of demonstrations, women like the extremist Emily Pankhurst and others being arrested and imprisoned many times and then one of their movement being trampled to death under King V's horse.  But they succeeded in their goal of achieving equal rights for women.

Without such strong minded people change would never happen.  Of course if you are an unthinking, wealthy, white male this may not be of concern as you are probably doing well as part of the establishment, but surely you can see how others may not be quite so content.  Trump's occupation of the White House is likely to be a major retrograde step for many, except of course unthinking, wealthy, white males who tend to be only concerned with their own situation.

Acer

Once again your comment about unthinking wealthy white males who tend to be concerned about their own situation could easily be applied to many in the UK 

Good post though

Acer

1. You avoided the main point of my last post.

2. The suffragettes were demonstrating because they had no say. They were therefore justified and heros to all of us. But they cannot be used as justification for antisocial behavour by those that do have a say.

3. You make far too many assumptions about other people. I through my own efforts I am comfortalbly off, but that has not always been the case. Interestingly Potblack's diversion from Brexit on the thread of that name has explored that area. When I was not well off I never believed I was justified in civil disobedience, this is because I lived in a free democratic society and had an equal say in that society. I never felt that I should have a greater say at the expense of my fellow citizens.

4. If Trump were to succede in his his mission to return the good times to the working and middle classes of the USA it would not just be one racial group that benefitted. In fact the minorities could gain most.

It is not I who is blinkered (or unthinking as you put it.) I will judge you by what you say not any stereo-type I might have in my mind. I will also continue to investigate and inform myself rather than just repeat current PC claptrap as others might.

tteedd,

You are taking my words as if I was criticising you, but this was not the case.  The comments are not "assumptions", they are true generalisms.

You say that "everyone will benefit if Trump succeeds and the minorities will gain most", but your optimism is highly questionable and others are entitled to make their own assessment.  

The truth is that no-one knows how Trump will perform with the American economy, but the chances of major civil upheaval, perhaps even civil war are substantially increased.

You say "...Trump's mission is to return the good times to the working and middle classes of the USA.." which is another highly dubious comment.   But for sure, if you were one of these guys with chronic medical issues and needed the support of Obamacare you might see the arrival of Trump rather differently.  "Dispair" might be the word. 

That's not "PC claptrap" as you so delicately put it - you might want to try seeing the matter from the other side.
    

acer

So much for ‘’highly dubious comment.’’

‘’perhaps even civil war’’  ** EDITED - inciting **

"...Trump's mission is to return the good times to the working and middle classes of the USA.."

I almost fell out of my chair laughing at that. Here is what he has done so far for the middle classes:

1.  Removed regulations regarding what banks can charge account holders who have financial struggles.  Banks used to game the system to get maximum penalties, such as intentionally delaying to the following evening the crediting of a paycheck that was received the night before the nstead of the following morning, causing overdrafts.

2. Removed the regulation that brokerage agents must work for the benefit of their clients.  (In the US, we are implored to have private retirement accounts because our somewhat successful elder pension is "socialism", but really it is just a ploy to make banks and Wall Street a fortune)

3.  Removed regulations that limit how much insurance companies can charge people getting mortgages with mandatory mortgage insurance, which ONLY hurts the middle class and poor.

4.  Proposing a tax plan that will have most middle class taxes going up, while decreasing taxes on the wealthy.

More troubling is the authorian tone of his aides, one who was on all the news shows saying Trump's national security actions "will not be questioned."

We have the makings of a fascist dictator in the US.  And given that Trump's National Security Advisor has made illegal calls to Russia and our 'intelligence agencies' have stopped sharing information with the White House due to security issues, you all in Europe should be concerned about the blantant alliance with Russia, Trump's desire to pull out of NATO and whatever else he is plannig.  

Sorry, the days of 'giving him a chance' are long gone.  The man is a menace.

This message was last edited by GarySFBCN on 13/02/2017.

This message was last edited by GarySFBCN on 13/02/2017.

What I was quoted as saying:

"...Trump's mission is to return the good times to the working and middle classes of the USA"

....................................................

What I actually said:

"If Trump were to succeed in his his mission to return the good times to the working and middle classes"

Is that not what he was promising in order to gather votes?

...........................................................

Why do people on these boards always misquote you?

'If Trump were to succeed' is clearly a statement of doubt but you chose to change it to suit your argument.

The whole point was not that he would succeed (or fail) but that whether he succeeds or fails all races with members in the categories stated will be affected.

This message was last edited by tteedd on 13/02/2017.

Tteedd,

You now seem to be splitting hairs, but for sure, the middle and working classes don't seem to share your confidence in Trump looking after them.  Incidentally, you didn't say much on Obamacare...is that still in safe hands?

There is a report in the American media:

<<
An astonishing revelation from the New York Observer (of which Jared Kushner used to be publisher) claims intelligence agencies are so concerned about the White House’s ties to the Kremlin and the fact Trump has been so dismissive of briefings, they’ve essentially stopped sending top-secret information.
>>

But as a Trump supporter you'll probably reckon this is just more fake news?  I have no idea, but Trump doesn't seem to be much of a team player, so there may be some truth in it.  Either way, IMHO Trump is not that clever to let himself be put in this situation.

Not just distorting but making it up in spades now Acer?

share your confidence in Trump

Where did I ever say I had any confidence in Trump?

But as a Trump supporter

Or claim to be a Trump supporter?

Splitting hairs

No Acer it is you splitting sentences to change the meaning.

If I ask you to justify what you say about a person it does not mean that I am a supporter of that person.

I think you are duplicitous and I justify it by the three examples above.

tteedd,

Your personal comments remind me of the maxim "when the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser".

** EDITED **

"when the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser".

Agreed

Now that Trump's National Security Advisor has resigned because of possible treason, it is going to get interesting.

Trump's Secretary of State (Rex Tillerson) has a close fiendship with Putin.  And Trump's former campaign manager (Paul Manafort), who was also forced to resign, was paid millions of dollars (in cash) working for Russian/Putin's interests in the Ukraine and US. 

And Trump refuses to criticize Putin or Russia and when challenged about that on Fox News. Trump responded that the US is just as bad as Russia.  Maybe that is true, but he said it to evade questions, not because he believes it. 

Many intelligence agencies have stated as fact that Russian hackers interfered with the US election and used Wikileaks as a conduit to publish that hacked data.  Trump gleefully used this information to hammer his opponent.  And guess what:  Now Trump isn't concered about the specter of his National Security Advisor being caught calling Russia.  No, he is concered that the information was leaked.  Trump has made enemies by malaligning intelligence agencies, the judiciary, the press and many politicians.  I wonder who would ever consider leaking examples of treason within his administration. 

Again, given his alliance with Putin and his disdain for NATO, Europeans should be concerned with the idiot who is our president. 

Well GarySFBCN so it’s that bad. Do you think acer is correct ‘’perhaps even civil war?’’  Doubt anyone would want to go US then, even the banned Muslims.

" ...do you think acer is correct ‘’perhaps even civil war?’’  Doubt anyone would want to go US then, even the banned Muslims. "

Elsietanner, in a country where there are more firearms than citiznes, a civil war would be a mess. But as many Republicans and others on the right are disgusted with Trump's apparent alliance with Russia, mostly because they are still 'cold warriors' living in fear of 'the Reds,' it seems that the majorities on the left and the right will be united against Trump, albeit for different reasons.  So no, I don't believe we will see a civil war. 

And we have to face the fact that Trump is not up to being president. There is now plenty of evidence but I'm not going to take up the entire forum by discussing it.

I truly understand people's desire for a big change, but it isn't happening with Trump, unless the change they wanted was more corruption and questionable temperament.  Globally, it seems that many have grievences and also want change, and we see that with Brexit and the election of Trump.  But we didn't see that in the recent election in Germany.   I wonder what is different in Germany or among Germans that they voted for a continuance of how things are now.   Note that I'm not saying that the Brexit vote wss good or bad, only that it is symbolic of people wanting change from the status quo.  

I believe the the US democracy will survive without a civil war for another 4 years. (That is an endorsement of the stability of the US constitutaional settlement not of any political figure).

I would expect both the republican and democratic party organisations to work towards early backing of a 'relaible' centre party candidate in the post Trump era. But perhaps both parties will ensure that they do not overlook large sections of the electorate again.

I thought that the German elections were to be in September? The amount of public backing for the candidates in both Germany and France seems to be fluid and change weekly. The system in both countries will probably lead to a centre right or centre left choice as usual. This is not true of Holland where the hard right wing candidate is seen as having a real chance.

I also think the US will not resort to civil war but that is only my opinion. ** EDITED **. It has already been pointed out that there are more firearms than citizens in the US, so they are tooled up for the event. Would Donald’s UK visit be cancelled? And which side would the UK government support?. ** EDITED **