International AVAAZ petition

If what the media say, belive or not belive, putin has supposedly only a couple of years left to live, personaly I dont believe that, but if so it would take quite a few years to even get the paperwork in line to take him to any court room, let alone out of russia, answers that question, sign a petion if you want to but don't be suprised if anything ever got done about that, or him.

putin thinks he will win, thought never enters his head he wont.

Ads, I will not be baited to respond to your personal insults and allegations which are against forum rules.

Baz it is a difficult scenario agreed, but the latest thinking is that it is likely that Putin and those equally responsible would be tried in their absence, but the assembly must also have the power to issue international arrest warrants which must not be limited to state immunity.

It has been stated that governments are looking at the most effective way of prosecuting those people who have committed these appalling war crimes including rape, sexual violence, the indiscriminate targeting of civilians.

Much depends upon how the tribunal can assist in this regard.

And in the interim it's obviously essential to keep gathering evidence.

Ads, fully agree these people should be tried in their absence and I am sure they will be, but not to keep going over old ground, this is Russia we are talking about, the world as we know it thinks it knows a lot about that country, visitors see a different country, the workings of it are stil the worlds best kept secret. If, a big if, he did die, natural or otherwise job done, then maybe the new people will do things differently, kinda doubtfull on that though.

The media also keeps on about his own, inner, people are getting anoyed at what he's doing, yet they are doing nothing to stop him, where are the thousands of parents, wives, kids, asking where their relatives are? Thats the power of him and how Russia works.

Yes sadly Baz, but in this instance there is a repetition of history here ( a copycat to Nazi rule) where psychological as well as physical warfare is being used by a tyrant, where the intention is to purposefully hide henious war crimes from the Russian populous by every means possible, and rule by fear and nationalistic fervour, but with the intent to overpower another innocent nation of people, let alone harm his own people in that process, regardless of international rules in place to protect.

So it is not a nation on trial here but those with purposeful intent on undermining essential International order, namely Putin and those who equally harbour such intent.

This thread is not Spain-related, but given that it is an important topic we will let it run, but only if you are respectful and civil. If not, we will have to lock the thread.

Thank you

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

'Well repeated'

We are doing nothing real. We are too scared of Putins nuclear weapons. We give the Ucranians arms (insuficient) and tell them they can't point them at Russia.

If Ucraine is to win it has to take the war to Russia. Destroy the supply lines for Russia's miliatry equipment and fuel (destroying also the gas and oil supplies to Europe - a reason for Ucraine not attacking Russia?).

What we could do is put the properly elected leader in charge in Bielorus and help her defend her country if neccessary. Help other countries recover the territory they have lost to Russia. But any action like this has to be done while Russia has it's hands full with the battle in Ucraine.

If things continue as at present Putin is going to slowly destory Ucraine and its people. Western governments will wring thier hands and say 'we tried but could do nothing'.

We are not trying hard enough.

This message was last edited by tteedd on 7/2/2022.

TTEEDD

Your argument re not trying hard enough is applicable, but not necessarily in the way you infer, and is complex in so much as governments and states are trying to abide by an International order that has been explained in previous responses.

The argument used to date appears to suggest that Ukraine and other European States are acting in defence of Russian aggression. This is part of the International order that all states have signed up to within the Geneva Convention ( and that the tyrant Putin is in contravention of). 

The moment that any Western country attacks Russian territory, the inference is that this will play into Putin's hands as he is constantly suggesting that it is he who is acting in defence and not the aggressor. 

All indications to date obviously demonstrate otherwise, but this is the manipulative manner in which Putin appears to be trying to gain credibility to his campaign ( and this is what he is telling the Russian people). 

Tragically alongside this, war crimes are being committed under the authority of Putin, and these are also contravening International Humaniatarian Rights....yet another contravention.

This is why the West are seeking evidence to support him being indicted as a war criminal. Obviously Putin and his supporters are denying such atrocities which is why evidence gathering is so essential.

So this is what Putin is trying to exploit. 

It would appear that he is trying to goad the West into aggressive action on their own Russian territory ( in full knowledge that the West abides by such International Conventions, leaving him to do as he wants in the interim.)  And all of his aggressive actions are in complete contravention of this International  Order.

The western states have been trying therefore to curtail such aggression by all manner of defensive actions, not only by provision of military supplies to Ukraine but also by financial sanctions. But it doesn't stop there...

Putin has cleverly positioned himself over many years and has compromised the West by their naive reliance on Russian oil and gas, and failed to see how vulnerable citizens have been left in that process. Hence the current attempts to seek alternatives and wean ourselves off Russian energy supplies. Not easy and painful of course….

Putin is also hoping that such financial impacts on our own economies, which we are all witnessing through inflation, will be sufficiently financially painful to disincentivise the West from continuing to support Ukraine. 

 But the realisation now is that it is the wider world who are impacted by his actions and not just Ukraine.

Basically you have a tyrant who is not abiding by agreed International Conventions or Humanitarian Rights,  so the West and all States that signed up to this order need to act swifly as one to indict him as a war criminal and place him under International arrest, exposing all evidence to date.

The longer this requirement to indict him at International level is delayed, the longer Ukraine will suffer, and the more vulnerable all citizens around the world willl become to his increasingly aggressive and inhumane actions, let alone the risks associated with such a tyrant having authority to provoke Nuclear war.

So this campaign to get Putin arrested via a war crime tribunal and removed from power appears increasingly critical to any retention of civilised World International order. 

Re Belarus, this is equally indicative of Putin's forward planning to get a leader to support his aggressive endeavours.

To remove that leader in any undemocratic manner however would also be in contravention of the International order, so Putin is once again exploiting this Western compliance.

It would appear therefore that the only way to best deal with this tyrant who is impacting so many across the world is to SWIFTLY get him indicted and expose the atrocities being committed under his tyrannical authority. 

In other words restore International world order.

Hence it would appear that we all need to sign the campaign to SWIFTLY establish an effective international tribunal and get Putin arrested as a war criminal.

https://secure.avaaz.org/campaign/en/prosecute_putin_loc/?kuhtiab

 I don't understand your defence comment.

And I never suggested that any western country should attack Russia.

Are you going to serve the arrest warrant on Putin?

Svetlana Tikhanovskaya was almost certainly the real winner of the last elections in Belorus although Lukashenko claims to have won.

 She would also be highly likely to run fair internationally observed elections unlike Lukashenko.

Replacing Lukashenko with Tikhanovskaya would be both democratic, and highly popular in Belorus.

I repeat.

Ucraine has to be given the power to attack Russian supply lines or Russia will continue with the destruction of the country. If we do not do this we might as well not help at all and hope that Russia does not kill to many. We have to be decisive one way or another or this meatgrinder will continue.

And now is the time to forment trouble for Russia in the other areas recently oppressed by Russia, while Ucraine is weakening the Russian war machine.

Mmm

Spain is a member of NATO.

Spain has taken a large number of Ukrainian refugees.

And remind me where was the recent NATO summit meeting?

HI TTEED,

With regard to the defence comment...this might go some way to explain what I meant re NATO taking a defensive approach to the situation.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_111767.htm

Hope this helps.

Re the choice of NATO summit venues it would appear that this is somewhat cyclical given previous venues, so it would appear that different countries are given an opportunity to host. So it appears to be decided in advance ( Lithuania for example has been chosen for 2023 apparently).

This chart shows the detail....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_summit

Re serving arrest warrants it is obviously dependent on those establishing an effective international tribunal as indicated in the AVAAZ campaign.

BBC one Panorama program 8th November 2022 9 pm.
 Mariupol  The people's story.

Extraordinary evidence.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001f0j7

https://secure.avaaz.org/campaign/en/prosecute_putin_loc/?kuhtiab

Perhaps all participants should be held accountable. That would include Putin, Zelenskyy, Macron, Johnson, the EU and the US.

It would be good to get to the bottom of this. Indeed to establish the casus belli, not just to try one person. After all it takes more than one side to have an argument!

I won´t sign the petition as it looks like it would be a kangaroo court without looking at the picture as a whole

A war crime is a violation of the laws of war.

The legal understanding of war crimes has been codified in several multilateral treaties, most notably the Geneva Conventions.

Much depends upon wantonly violating the laws of war, such things as 
Wantonly targeting civilians or wantonly destroying their means of survival such as water sources, crops, livestock etc.
 

The evidence from the people of Mariupol alone in this documentary speaks reams and appears to sadly identify wanton violation under the command of Putin.

putin hasnt the brains to work out what he's done is a violation of the laws of war because in his  mind he has done no wrong, so no doubt he wont lose any sleep over, if ever, being charged for war crimes.

It would appear that he has purposely stated his intent to reoccupy a democratic country on his border which in his mind he considers to still be part of Russia and by his aggressive stance to date is purposefully ignoring the Geneva conventions.

He tried to relinquish his responsibility by originally refusing to acknowledge this was war but " a special mission".

It would appear that he has never accepted Ukraine ( or other states for that matter ) as being independent of Russian rule which implies this was intentional non compliance of rules intended to protect, and therefore his non compliance was not in ignorance but purposeful. 

Evidence of war crimes including purposeful intent is therefore critical to this whole scenario