Community charges..... non-payers....direct action?

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08 Feb 2009 19:34 by Roberto Star rating in Torremolinos. 3871 posts Send private message

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If you deny them keys, they'll just break the doors / gates. Do not make the mistake of crediting your neighbours with any shred of responsibility or decency.

One of our neighbours had her car broken into in the communal underground garage a few days ago - window smashed etc... It's most likely that the culprit got in to the garage because on numerous occasions the automated door gets left open, by someone with a faulty "clicker" who rather than get it fixed, opens the door manually. However, once it has been opened manually, it will not close automatically, and must be closed manually too. I know who is leaving the door open (by a process of elimination) but cannot prove it unless I catch them red-handed. Furthermore, they rent a garage space and do not live in the building, so the correct procedure would be to complain to the owner about their tennant's behaviour and then hope the owner does something about the faulty clicker. We (the community) have pointed out to all owners on numerous occasions the importance of security, and the responsibility of both owners and their tennants to ensure the security of all.

The day after my neighbour's car was broken into, I went down to the garage and found the door open yet again. While I was there, my neighbour's husband drove in, and I pointed out to him that the door was open. HE said, "oh yes, it was open when I went out an hour ago". The thing is, it hadn't occured to him to close it after him, despite the fact his wife's car was in the garage - with a broken window.

You cannot, unfortunately, rely on people behaving how you would expect them to. It brings to mind that redundant questions teachers used to ask naughty children in class - "would you behave like that in your own home?" When the answer is a confused "err...yeah", what can you do?



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09 Feb 2009 16:32 by Acky Star rating. 58 posts Send private message

Community fee debtors is a bear bug for ALL communities in Espana.

Despite letters, threats etc., hardy folk just refuse to cough up their dues, putting community coffers into debt, in certain instances.

Keys for pools, etc., have been denied, but the shysters usually manage to get a dip.

I read some posting with the huge fees (All I can say is tyhere must be some ealthy people out there)

I read about one president who chained up those in debt's homes - so they couldn't get in their property.  Would you Adam and Eve that?  But it still goes on.

And I have never heard of any debtor being taken to Court in Espana....And to take debtors to Court will also drain the coffers even more.

For people breaking doors down and smashing car windows...they sound like nice neighbours. Not!

Its just a case of deja-vu...with Brits not paying their Poll Tax under Maggie Thatcher.  (Maybe those same folk are now in Spain?!!)





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09 Feb 2009 18:25 by Roberto Star rating in Torremolinos. 3871 posts Send private message

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Funnily enough (and thankfully) we have NO debtors in our community, and our problem is not so much people breaking doors down, as not closing them behind them. The scumbag who broke into a car was an outsider - not someone from the community.



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09 Feb 2009 18:32 by Karensun Star rating in Orihuela Costa. 1476 posts Send private message

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Acky..................we have taken several large debtors to court and are awaiting the embargos right now. It does take a long time but if the debt is more than 300€ it does not cost the community anything to go to court and the one who owes the money will have to pay the costs ( usually from the enforced sale of thier property ).....................it's the only LEGAL way to go and Spanish courts do not allow any excuses for non payment of community fees.



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09 Feb 2009 19:12 by Acky Star rating. 58 posts Send private message

I will let the President know of this.  Please keep me posted of the outcome.  Although, if the debtors won't pay any fee's even if the courts grant charges I still can't see them coughting up.  As for selling properties to bring in the debt who is going to oversee this?

 





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10 Feb 2009 13:46 by Karensun Star rating in Orihuela Costa. 1476 posts Send private message

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It is ALL done by the courts, Acky. First they look at all the assets the debtor has in Spain ( bank accounts etc. ) and if the money cannot be got that way, they ( the courts ) will embargo and sell the property.



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10 Feb 2009 14:53 by Acky Star rating. 58 posts Send private message

Karensun: Have you got solid evidence of this? 

I have yet to hear or read about anyone goint to court - regarding unpaid Comunity debts. 

And I certainly haven't come across; quote 'First they look at all the assets the debtor has in Spain ( bank accounts etc. ) and if the money cannot be got that way, they ( the courts ) will embargo and sell the property.

*Please do post on the forum a clipping of where you have got your info from. Or, as with some other matters in Spain, is it 'idle gossip'?





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10 Feb 2009 15:56 by Karensun Star rating in Orihuela Costa. 1476 posts Send private message

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OK Acky...................my husband has been Presidente of our Urb of 184 apartments for 3 years. My experience is FIRST HAND. Our Urb is actually doing ( or has done ) this court action for non community fee payers.

I DO NOT post any information of which I do not have knowledge or experience because I would not want to give any false information.

Your Presidente should be aware of how to deal LEGALLY with non-payers and your Administrator should also have this knowledge.

If I can help further................just ask...........



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10 Feb 2009 16:43 by FibbyUK Star rating in UK, Surrey & Playa F.... 2351 posts Send private message

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I have a funny feeling new member Acky is a wind up KarenSun?!

We all know you give good solid an knowledgeable advice.

I think the post should be taken with a pinch of salt and a slice of lime.........mmmmmmmmm delicious tequila!

Cheers everyone!


 



This message was last edited by FibbyUK on 2/10/2009.

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10 Feb 2009 16:57 by Acky Star rating. 58 posts Send private message

Chill out Fibby!!

Ruffling a few feathers? Taken with a pinch of salt... what do you mean by that? Explain.  After all this is A FORUM.

Karensun.  As wife to El Presidente.  I am sure he is aware that taking someone to court could take up to eight years to finalise any judgement. 

Of course, my President, and other Presidents (and Administrator) that I know well are aware of all the hassle.  That wasn't the point.

You say your hubby has taken people to court over non payment.  Got any update??

If, say, a case was proved..and the debtor was to sell their house to pay their dues.  In the current climate, who's going to buy it?  This issue will run and run....at a cost to the relevant communities.

Fibby. Can you pass the salt, I'm just tucking into fish & chips!





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10 Feb 2009 17:14 by Karensun Star rating in Orihuela Costa. 1476 posts Send private message

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Acky..................

We have had final judgements from the court and it has taken 2 years which is VERY fustrating.

We are awaiting the court's final check of the debtor's assets in Spain and if there is not enough monies available from those the apartments will be embargoed and sold.

As the costs are given to the debtor......there is no cost to the community.

BESIDES......what is the alternative ................just let them get away with it??????????????



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10 Feb 2009 17:14 by FibbyUK Star rating in UK, Surrey & Playa F.... 2351 posts Send private message

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Quote: my Post

I think the post should be taken with a pinch of salt and a slice of lime.........mmmmmmmmm delicious tequila!

All I was saying Acky is that KarenSun REALLY does know what she is talking about and not to be wound up by your post, as it seemed to question her ability to answer your question.

** EDITED **

And I am a chilled out member, I don't cause trouble, just pop in now and again to say hello........

Kind regards,

 

 



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10 Feb 2009 17:16 by noddy Star rating. 148 posts Send private message

Taking debtors to court is the only option. We have over 30% debt rate, the problem arises when the courts take too long, and in the meantime another load of community fees have not been paid. I understand only the debt at the time of your AGM approval can be considered.

I also understand that the courts are quite soft, and if for example someone owes 2,000 maybe the court will instruct only part payment of say 1,000. please correct me if i am wrong.

So the debtors list gets bigger and bigger withe genuine good owners getting frustrated at supporting the shirkers. Eventually such a shortage of money could lead to urbanisations not being able to run the basics.

Especially on new developments with vacant investment apartments, these people have no intention of paying. I know legally you cannot prevent their "rights" but you can make it very awkward.

I fear with the exchange rate, the economy this problem can only get worse.

noddy

 





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10 Feb 2009 17:19 by sandra Star rating in . 771 posts Send private message

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Hi Icky,

"If, say, a case was proved..and the debtor was to sell their house to pay their dues.  In the current climate, who's going to buy it? "

The courts sell the property in order to recoup the debt, NOT the debtor.

Also I don't believe the courts are  obliged to get the market value. If the debt was say 5k euros and the highest offer they got for the property was 6k euros, then they would sell. You only have to take as an example the case of the Byblos hotel on Mijas golf. The hotel was reputedy worth 15million euros and it was up for auction with a reserve of 1.5 muillion euros, the amount needed to clear the debt.

I can't  see there being a shortage of interested buyers for such a property however depressed the prevailing market might be except, I might add,  the Byblos did not sell!

I love your name by the way!

 

 

 

 

 



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10 Feb 2009 17:27 by Karensun Star rating in Orihuela Costa. 1476 posts Send private message

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noddy,

Once you have the debt registered in court the amount owing can be updated as other community fees remain unpaid. At each AGM our owners are advised of the current situation and approval is given to continue action. The Administrator's Lawyer advises the court of the additional amounts and these are added to the debt. The debt also accrues interest, which means that a debt of 3000e can end up as a debt of over 600€ pretty quickly plus court costs.

I have not known a court be soft regarding community fees, just the opposite because Spanish courts see non-payment of Community Fees as an infringement of Spanish culture. And lets face it..................everyone knows that Community fees have to be paid....................you have to pay your dues in UK.........and the penalties are strict so why should they be any different here??



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10 Feb 2009 17:29 by Karensun Star rating in Orihuela Costa. 1476 posts Send private message

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Sandra.......the name is ACKY.......not ICKY !!!!           



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10 Feb 2009 19:54 by Acky Star rating. 58 posts Send private message

** EDITED - Please respect terms of posting **



This message was last edited by EOS Team on 2/10/2009.



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10 Feb 2009 21:03 by sandra Star rating in . 771 posts Send private message

sandra´s avatar

       " This just proves my point - valued at £15M and not even sold at £1.5M "

Icky,

Apparently there was no shortage of interested would be buyers but for some unexplained reason, the Town Hall did not    release  it for sale. If you are  interested in the story surrounding this (which I doubt you are) you will have to do a search of the Spanish property web sites.It was on one of them that I picked up the news report. So, it not being sold, does not really prove your point. I was just trying to make my point that the creditors do not have to try and achieve a market value when selling.

I hope you don't mind me saying, but I found your post rather confusing. If you had put your comments- to my original reply to you - in a different font or if you had used a different coloured  font to me   it would have been more clear that you had replied. Also what had FibbyUK to do with it. I did not understand?

I realise that you are new to this board and probably a novice at using the internet, so don't let my comments put you off posting. We welcome new members and try and help where and when we can.



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10 Feb 2009 22:13 by Roberto Star rating in Torremolinos. 3871 posts Send private message

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Loving this thread - it's just like a nice cosy little community meeting!



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10 Feb 2009 22:41 by Patty_1 Star rating in Hertfordshire. UK. .... 1064 posts Send private message

 Yes i HAVE TO AGREE with you there Roberto,

But I would be interested to know we have taken a few to court on our urb:  how long is the procedure from begining to end ie?    court possesion or does it depend  at what court it is heard at?  I know it is a bit long winded in Spain,

The debtor's might well pay up but I wonder in this current climate if that will be the case.

Pat



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