Brexit: tax on lets

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13 Feb 2020 15:09 by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 5239 posts Send private message

 


This message was last edited by johnzx on 13/02/2020.



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13 Feb 2020 15:12 by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 5239 posts Send private message

That new cutting is from Euro Weekly News today.





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14 Feb 2020 08:59 by Kavanagh Star rating in Oil Drum Lane Newcas.... 930 posts Send private message

Kavanagh´s avatar

The article does say ‘’may have a significant impact’’. Like many media reports, all full of ‘’may, maybe, could, might’’ I suppose they have to print something.

The Spanish Government can increase taxes to non EU citizens to whatever it likes and destroy it’s housing market and keep it’s labour force unemployed. One day they may learn 19% of something is better than 24% of nothing.



_______________________
There is enough in the world for everyone, but not enough for the greedy!



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14 Feb 2020 09:41 by baz1946 Star rating. 2177 posts Send private message

Probably got nothing to do with the fact that when the UK finally leaves the EU and the money pit from us drys up, Spain, along with all the others is slowly getting to realise that our share, which they wont be getting anymore,  has to come from somewhere...Them.





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14 Feb 2020 15:19 by ads Star rating. 4012 posts Send private message

According to this informative article

https://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/2019/03/02/new-rental-law/

there have already been concerns expressed ( not dependent upon Brexit) re changes to rental laws limiting the ability to rent in Spain, not least by changes to the Horizontal Act...

"Spain’s Horizontal Act is amended allowing Community of Owners to vote by a simple majority of 3/5 to ban outright holiday rentals within a community."

The article goes on to express 

"It would seem the Spanish government consistently fails to realize there are two sides to a coin in every negotiation. What this sloppy legislation does is to create a lopsided law that pulls all the stops in favour of only one side, tenants. But it does so at the (great) expense of landlord’s rights, which have taken a severe blow. In life, when you swerve violently to one side, there is bound to be an equal and opposite reaction from the other side. In any negotiation there are always two opposing sides, it is the government’s duty to strive to strike a balance, meeting with the social agents involved, gather their points of view, close positions and reconcile both sides to reach a mutually-agreeable middle ground. Both sides must compromise, making concessions to reach a middle point. Granted, it may not be the best solution but it is attained through a working consensus. Unfortunately, our government would seem oblivious to this fact and keeps obstinately ploughing ahead, like a horse with blinders, permanently enacting law after law which only benefits one side, often at the expense and exclusion of the other.

This observation is extensive to several other social policies adopted by the incumbent during his 8-month tenure, such as the irresponsible sharp minimum wage rise from last December with a mind-blowing increase of 30% in under a year, the largest combined increase over a 40-year span. Unsurprisingly, the backlash to this aggressive wage policy has been a huge spike in unemployment levels as from January, with thousands of workers being let go by SMEs and large companies. Again, the same underlying problem; legislating only for one side blissfully ignoring the other side’s point of view.

You just cannot hope to rule a country properly if you keep approving law after law permanently ignoring the other side; that is not negotiating, it is imposing one’s own views over others. There are bound to be consequences. And in the case of this new rental law, the collateral victims I’m afraid will be the same ones this well-meaning, albeit ultimately flawed law, sought to protect; the vulnerable social collectives such as youngsters, senior citizens and those with a disability that need a permanent place of abode. This law may put them in harm’s way on alienating them when it comes to looking for a reasonably priced long-term rental.

I apologize in advance for repeating what I wrote back in January, when Congress first repealed this clumsy law, but I feel compelled to post it again as it is warranted:

“Whilst it is always commendable in life to aspire to lofty ideals, these have real consequences when put into practice; this is particularly true of those politicians who have a penchant for them and who have never in their life worked in the private sector having lived off public stipends for all their life.

Politicians wield huge power and should carefully ponder the consequences of their ill-thought actions in the real economy and above all, and most fundamentally, on how these changes impact on ordinary families’ life’s

Perhaps the same can be said of ongoing negotiations between the EU executive and UK government with regard to Brexit in search of mutually beneficial agreements?

 

 


This message was last edited by ads on 14/02/2020.


This message was last edited by ads on 14/02/2020.



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14 Feb 2020 15:43 by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 5239 posts Send private message

For those who are not aware: 

The conditions which may apply to UK nationals after Brexit,  apply now to all Non EU nationals.so, if they come to apply to Brits, the EU is not being discriminatory against Brits, just treating them the same as all non EU nationals.





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14 Feb 2020 16:16 by Roberto Star rating in Torremolinos. 4493 posts Send private message

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Another non-story! This is not "news". Have these publications got nothing better to fill their space with? I can almost hear the Brexiteers moaning over their pints of Sangria that they didn't vote to pay more in taxes, but this was a known fact (for anyone with half a brain cell at least) since before the referendum was even conceived. So why is it being reported now? Even the Daily Torygraph has started publishing "news" that after the end of the transition period, new travel rules will come into effect for Brits going to the continent.

It's almost as if they didn't know before....frown

As for the impact on the Spanish real estate sector, or the overall economy, I seriously doubt that charging British non-resident property owners an additional 5% will make one iota of difference; existing owners will just suck it up (for most it won't amount to a significant sum anyway - probably less than the price of a plastic cup or two of vino on the  Ryanair flight over) and for prospective new owners, they won't know any different and won't care, when it comes to purchasing their little piece of paradise in the sun. 



_______________________

 

"Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason"

Mark Twain

 

 

 




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14 Feb 2020 16:59 by ads Star rating. 4012 posts Send private message

As with many of these issues, transparency and comprehension is all and maybe there are many in ignorant bliss who look to EOS for informative detail. Not everyone is as knowledgeable with regard to detail as you Roberto! wink

I never understand why those with the knowledge would take exception to provision of knowledge to those that need it........given so many pitfalls and loopholes and recent changes in laws that people haven't been aware of, then perhaps best to forewarn where appropriate.





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14 Feb 2020 17:03 by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 5239 posts Send private message

The Sur in English printed the same story today.

From people I have spoken to who let in Spain, including a couple of letting agents, it was certainly news to them

 

.I seriously doubt that charging British non-resident property owners an additional 5%

The Sur in English printed the same story today.

From people I have spoken to who let in Spain, including a couple of letting agents, the full story was certainly news to them.

Not the 5% more,  but it’s that the 24% it will applied to 100% of the income.  That is without the owners being able to deduct any running costs, including electricity, gas, water, community fees, agents commission & fees (IVA maybe) insurance, cleaning services, laundry,  wear and tear, replacement furniture and fittings,,  etc.    

You will know better that me Roberto, but maybe a loss of around 50% or more on their previous return.   Possibly make it not worth letting at all.

 

 

 


This message was last edited by johnzx on 14/02/2020.



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14 Feb 2020 17:11 by baz1946 Star rating. 2177 posts Send private message

Ads, why look to EOS for knowledge when this was posted by a member, from a newspaper cutting, how many times have we been pulled up for repeating and believing the 'Newspapers' on here, sure it's interesting to read but honestly if this is true what is anyone going to do about it, because it will happen come what may.

How many people do you really know who look at EOS? In comparison to the millions in Spain, tried changing any laws you don't like lately by talking about them.





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14 Feb 2020 17:19 by Kavanagh Star rating in Oil Drum Lane Newcas.... 930 posts Send private message

Kavanagh´s avatar

‘’That new cutting is from Euro Weekly News today.’’ About as reliable as the Beano and the Sun.laugh



_______________________
There is enough in the world for everyone, but not enough for the greedy!



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14 Feb 2020 17:24 by ads Star rating. 4012 posts Send private message

I thought that was what EOS was good at...........keeping people informed and for that matter debating some ethical issues that require resolution.

Perhaps the EOS moderators might suggest that this forum is of growing need now, especially given the sensationlistic press and media that have, shall we say, not always looked to the wider perspective! wink

As for proactivity, yes I agree with you that not enough is done, but a good starting point is a forum that keeps people informed (especially where changes are plentiful, never mind the many complexities and differences that exist in the real estate industry and the justice system in Spain) and just maybe occasionally inspires them sufficiently to take action to the benefit of many, as we have seen with some successes to date..

Long live EOS!!!





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14 Feb 2020 17:36 by Kavanagh Star rating in Oil Drum Lane Newcas.... 930 posts Send private message

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You are entitled to believe anything you want. Many Brits think Coronation Street is real life.crying



_______________________
There is enough in the world for everyone, but not enough for the greedy!



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14 Feb 2020 17:45 by baz1946 Star rating. 2177 posts Send private message

Now you just look here Kavanagh, I had to go to Manchester for a wedding, also did a trip around the Coronation Street  studios, and I can confirm it is real life, I know I been their...Even the ghost that walked past the dressing rooms...They did warn us beforehand it was haunted.





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14 Feb 2020 18:28 by Kavanagh Star rating in Oil Drum Lane Newcas.... 930 posts Send private message

Kavanagh´s avatar

Quite right Baz, I went to Coronation Street Studios years ago, great place. It’s all a matter of choice what you want to believe, media fantasy garbage to sell newspapers and TV advertising or geniune facts. Sometimes I wish I could also live in fantasy land, but as you know not a good idea for a serious businessman. The world is full of dreamers and do gooders who think they can put the world to rights. The world is ruled by the wealthy power greedy people, doubt it will ever change.cheeky



_______________________
There is enough in the world for everyone, but not enough for the greedy!



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14 Feb 2020 18:49 by mariedav Star rating in Ciudad Quesada. 1062 posts Send private message

It was only about 5 years ago when the ECJ castigated Spain for charging EU non-resident (not just Brit ones for the paranoia amongst you) a higher rental tax than EU residents. It was 24% for non residents then, regardless of where they came from. ECJ said this discriminated against EU citizens so made Spain reduce the tax and to allow them to claim expenses which non-EU citizens can't.

The UK is going to introduce a minimum wage for EU citizens coming to live in UK. It was £30,000 a year but is rumoured to be reduced to to £25600 which makes it about the  same as Spain requires from non-EU citizens. 

Now, of course, it is OK for UK to do this but if Spain does it then it will be unfair to the Brits (forget the 40,000 Americans, 60,000 Chinese, 4000, Australians, and all the other non-EU citizens living here) but the Brits  are, of course, speshul.

Those nasty Europeans kicking us out of the EU ........or wasn't that actually the  way it was?

Anyone who thinks everything will be hunkey dory and nothing will change really need to get out and live in the real world for a while. Otherwise, what would be the point of actually leaving the EU? I wonder if it is just British arrogance that brings the "we are Brits so will be treated differently" attitude to the fore or simply a non-willingness to accept that we really aren't that different.

And can you imagine that, when UK becomes a fully fledged non-EU nation, countries start applying different regulations or tax levels to the Brits and not to them, the aforementioned non-EU citizens would be screaming high heaven to the courts. It could tie up the  legal system for years in many different countries and I can envisage trade barriers and tariffs being introduced until the discriminatory rules are confined to the shredder.

 

 





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14 Feb 2020 19:33 by Roberto Star rating in Torremolinos. 4493 posts Send private message

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Ads: "Not everyone is as knowledgeable with regard to detail as you Roberto! wink I never understand why those with the knowledge would take exception to provision of knowledge to those that need it...given so many pitfalls and loopholes and recent changes in laws that people haven't been aware of". I'm confused, Ads. You seem to suggest that I'm mocking people who weren't aware that Brexit meant that the UK would no longer be a member of the EU. I was merely questioning why certain media are reporting now, issues relating to Brexit that were known a long time ago, as if they've only just come to light. We're not talking about "recent" changes to the law - we're talking about the very real consequences of Brexit, which everyone who had a vote should have informed themselves about before going to the polls. "Perhaps best to forewarn" - well, exactly; my point is, this kind of information was and has been freely available to anyone who bothered to pay attention for the last 4 years.

John: "people I have spoken to who let in Spain, including a couple of letting agents, the full story was certainly news to them". I don't know any better than you John, but seriously: I can understand some property owners not being fully aware, but any letting agent who claims to be a professional really should know better. It's their business to know, surely? You make a fair point about about allowable deductions, but what about all the thousands of holiday home owners who don't let their porperty out, and just pay imputed income tax? Many of them won't even notice an additional 5%, and as mariedav says, until recently they were paying it anyway.

 


This message was last edited by Roberto on 14/02/2020.

_______________________

 

"Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason"

Mark Twain

 

 

 




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14 Feb 2020 20:38 by Kavanagh Star rating in Oil Drum Lane Newcas.... 930 posts Send private message

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Quite right, either pay whatever tax Spain demands or go elsewhere.kiss



_______________________
There is enough in the world for everyone, but not enough for the greedy!



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15 Feb 2020 10:56 by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 5239 posts Send private message

Roberto. but what about all the thousands of holiday home owners who don't let their porperty out, and just pay imputed income tax? Many of them won't even notice an additional 5%, and as mariedav says, until recently they were paying it anyway

The article was addressed to those who let.  I guess quote "even half brained people" know it will not affect too much those who do not let,  and thus have never had any right to deduct any running costs. 

 





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15 Feb 2020 17:08 by Roberto Star rating in Torremolinos. 4493 posts Send private message

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I get that John - that's why I acknowledged your "fair point about allowable deuctions". I was simply making the point that there are also many non-resident property owners who won't be significantly impacted by this "news". What's more, the article seems to imply that Spain's real estate sector may take a huge hit as a result, which is frankly ludicrous. When transfer tax on purchases increased from 7% to 8% and in some areas 10%, the financial impact on buying a property was probably in most cases far greater than Brits suddenly having to pay 5% more income tax on their lettings. And that applied across the board, to Spaniards, EU and non-EU citizens alike. And yet...the real estate sector somehow survived.   



_______________________

 

"Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason"

Mark Twain

 

 

 




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