why do we have to have community rules when the chosen few will not follow them

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03 Aug 2016 08:30 by maggiepat Star rating. 16 posts Send private message

i have tried to get onfo on this subject before but i am no futher forward .2 years ago one member bought an inflatable

slide to use at the pool its not insured for any one being injured he says if children were injured the parents are at fault for letting them use ,well 2days ago it blew up an d nowonee was injured it has to be plugged in to keep it inflated

sometimes for up to 10 hours my problem and others is it is using community electricity nobody can tell what we can do about it .any suggestion?

 





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03 Aug 2016 09:10 by steone Star rating in Santiago de la Riber.... 386 posts Send private message

This is all down to your President. If he/she is 'weak' and allows it then not much can be done. However if it explicitly states in your rules that this item or that item is expressly not allowed then any owner can call the local police to have it removed. The President would then have to attend the police station to issue a 'denuncia' and then the real trouble starts.

The use of communial electricity is difficult but surely the mains socket is not poolside but in a locked cupboard and not available to all owners. If not it should be!

This needs to be bought up at your AGM or if you are really that worried and you can get over 25% of owners to call an EGM to discuss this and then vote on it. ( I know it is not 25% of owners but 25% of 'shares' but I was being brief, for once in my life)

As usual, the main causes of neighbourhood rows are either about the pool or about parking. Good luck



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03 Aug 2016 11:37 by Roberto Star rating in Torremolinos. 4514 posts Send private message

Roberto´s avatar

"why do we have to have community rules when the chosen few will not follow them"

I'm not clear which "rule" you believe is being broken here. I'm not saying I agree with the slide (it sounds to me like a disaster waiting to happen) but I'm also not sure, if other owners are happy with it, what you can do. You would have to check the community insurance to see if there's anything there expressly allowing, or not, the use of such things.

Do you have a lifeguard?



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03 Aug 2016 14:19 by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 5241 posts Send private message

Roberto:-  You would have to check the community insurance to see if there's anything there expressly allowing, or not, the use of such things

 

Just a thought:- .

At a presentation on various laws in Spain, the abogado said that in general in Spain, unlike UK, you cannot do anything unless there is a law to say you can.     In UK if there is no law to say you cannot do it then you can.

Thus with the slide,  it may need a clause to say it's use is covered.





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03 Aug 2016 14:40 by Roberto Star rating in Torremolinos. 4514 posts Send private message

Roberto´s avatar

Yes, I've heard that before, but frankly it's ridiculous to say you cannot do anything unless there is a law to say you can, and this may explain why Spaniards tend to just do whatever they want until stopped. 

Edit: thinking about it, the above makes no sense whatsoever. Can I use a parasol in the garden? Nope, no law to say you can. Can I use swimming goggles in the pool? Nope, no law to say you can. Can I use SPF50 on my kids? Nope, no law to say you can....

Anyway, my point is, that whatever the law says, Spaniards will readily ignore it if it doesn't suit them. E.g. parking on pedestrian crossings? Pretty sure there is a law against that. Driving through red lights? Pretty sure there is a law against that too. So even if there's a law banning the use of inflatable slides in community pools (unlikely), I can't see that helping the OP much in this case, without making themselves extremely unpopular with the neighbours.

 


This message was last edited by Roberto on 03/08/2016.

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03 Aug 2016 15:42 by acer Star rating. 1383 posts Send private message

I found this a confusing and muddled thread!

But I do believe Roberto's comments are good.  The idea that you can only do something if a law says you can is rather silly and impractical.  Invariably the laws of any country are formed by a mixture of statutes (written) and common law (legal precedent, accepted practice and customs).

Maggiepat, you say the slide is not insured against causing bodily injury - but do not explain the basis of this statement.  Do the insurers say this?  Or is it someone else, perhaps who is guessing?  You might check your policy but it's doubtful that this will help - you are better advised to put something in writing to the insurer/broker and obtain their written response.

I would be very surprised if they say that your urbanisations liability for bodily injury caused by the use of the slide is not covered.  It would be a normal activity that should fall within the usual business defintion expected.  I am assuming that there is a "member to member" extension within the policy and there is no charge being levied for ether the use of the pool or the slide.

But it sounds to me like someone, probably the President, needs to take control.  If it is decided that the slide can be used it is vital that it is properly inspected and certificated at least once a year.

 

 


This message was last edited by acer on 03/08/2016.

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03 Aug 2016 16:20 by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 5241 posts Send private message

Acer   Invariably the laws of any country are formed by a mixture of statutes (written) and common law (legal precedent, accepted practice and customs).

Sorry I did not make it abundantly clear in large letters.    The abogado said " in general in Spain" that was the case”.  Thus one needs to use a little common sense.

I know UK law pretty well and what you say does apply there, but Common Law for sure  does not exist in Spain. 

I understand all law in Spain is based on the Civil Code, a concept which does not exist in UK.  

Guessing what the law is or might be,  I know is not to be recommended in Spain.

 

NB Re my post,  I did say,  "Thus with the slide,  it may need a clause to say it's use is covered." That would avoid problems if there is an accident.

When I moved to Spain in 1987 there was no specific insurance cover available for windsurf boards.  Albeit that there was a ‘fuzzy’ clause in my household policy  which implied I might be covered,  I got my insurance company to include that as a clause in my policy, to avoid any complications if I were to make a claim.

Just in passing.

I was curious so have been on the internet.

 

The Spanish Civil Code regulates the interpretation of laws in Spain, and establishes the following:

3.1. Laws are to be interpreted according to the proper meaning of their words, in relation to their context, historic and legal records and the social reality of the time in which they have to be applied, paying particular attention to the spirit and finality of the above.

3.2. Equity must be considered in the application of laws, although the Courts' decisions can only exclusively rest on this when the law expressly permits this.

— Article 3 Spanish Civil Code

 

 

 


This message was last edited by johnzx on 03/08/2016.



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03 Aug 2016 17:41 by acer Star rating. 1383 posts Send private message

Johnzx, I suspect your Abogado friend was being facetious - "having a laugh".  There is no way that the comment could be taken seriously.

As you don't believe me the following is an extract from Wikipedia:

<<

Spanish law follows the continental system, which means it is supported principally by the law in the broad sense (laws and regulations) and to a lesser extent by judicial decisions and customs. Likewise, it is a complex law, in which various autonomous community legislation coexists with the national.

>>

The other part you copied merely confirms that the Spanish Civil Code follows international legal practice.  It would be surprising if it didn't.

 


This message was last edited by acer on 03/08/2016.

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03 Aug 2016 18:15 by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1755 posts Send private message

seems we are doing it again and quoting laws and so called knowledge but maybe some need to read a bit more or do a bit more on google

here is the wiki definition of spanish laws hierarchy, common law etc etc

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Spain

I wish Tony form teh pub woudl coem on here and give us the real answers



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03 Aug 2016 18:25 by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 5241 posts Send private message

Tadd,  glad to see you are relying on the same web page as Acer and me

 


This message was last edited by johnzx on 03/08/2016.



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03 Aug 2016 19:20 by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1755 posts Send private message

Yep and easy to read

 



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03 Aug 2016 19:37 by Team GB Star rating. 1245 posts Send private message

Team GB´s avatar

Way way to complicated, goodness me! we are talking about an inflatable slide in a community pool during August! We don't need to concern ourselves with the Spainsh constitution!

The answer lies within the community rules !

Has this contraption or such like it  been approved for use by an AGM ? If not get the president to stop it. If he/she wont or can't  get the required amount of support to call a EGM and stop it that way. If you can't do either of these you will have to put up with it for a month



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03 Aug 2016 20:00 by Roberto Star rating in Torremolinos. 4514 posts Send private message

Roberto´s avatar

Yep, here we go again! Everyone consulting Wikipedia and then sprouting their expert knowledge! cheeky

"The abogado said " in general in Spain" that was the case”.  Thus one needs to use a little common sense." Come on John, you should know better. We're in Spain. The phrase "common sense" is an oxymoron here - sense is not common.

We seem to be confusing laws, insurance & community rules - and I'm still unclear why the OP referred in the title of the thread to community rules being broken. This implies they have a clear rule banning inflatable slides. Do they?

I asked Tony, and he said "Heck, it's a free water slide! Use it, enjoy it, and be glad you're not paying €28 to get into Aquapark and then finding you have to buy their food & drink as well!" 

But being serious, I think Team GB has it just about right in this case.



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"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please"

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03 Aug 2016 22:31 by baz1946 Star rating. 2196 posts Send private message

Maybe someone should be a little more concerned about the blow up slide, wet kids, pool...And plugged into the mains.





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03 Aug 2016 23:11 by Team GB Star rating. 1245 posts Send private message

Team GB´s avatar

Maybe someone should be a little more concerned about the blow up slide, wet kids, pool...And plugged into the mains.

That someone needs to be the president of the community Baz - he/ she is the  responsible person and can be held personally responsible in case of acciident - so hopefully the circuit has been installed by a professional and certified



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03 Aug 2016 23:25 by Team GB Star rating. 1245 posts Send private message

Team GB´s avatar

Thinking about it  Maggie, if this equipment has been installed without the permission of the community and has just been plugged in by the owner, the quickest way to stop it probably is to inform the president that he could well be peronally liable in case of an accident 



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03 Aug 2016 23:38 by Weescottie Star rating. 36 posts Send private message

Or take a pin to it...oops it did explode didn't it





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03 Aug 2016 23:41 by Team GB Star rating. 1245 posts Send private message

Team GB´s avatar

laugh Thats always the other option Weescottie

 



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04 Aug 2016 08:48 by maggiepat Star rating. 16 posts Send private message

thank you all for your input this slide was to be used once a year when we have a pool party now it goes uu when he likes .it is not insured on the cmmunity policy .the owner says he has insurance but won't show us the policy.there is not a lot of space round the pool and it sits right outside of peoples homes and its very noisy we will sort it out at the AGM next week.

Maggiepat





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04 Aug 2016 11:56 by acer Star rating. 1383 posts Send private message

I've received 3 private messages, which really should have been posted here on this thread. 

I'm not replying to any of them, other than just to say:

~ Johnzx, legal precedent and common law are not the same thing.
~ Maggiepat, the ownership of the slide and other factors you mention are unlikely to have any relevance.  If an injury occurs which triggers legal action the community are likely to be cited in any legal proceedings.  I have already suggested the best action for you to consider on this matter and will say no more.

 



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