The coming worldwide credit crunch

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01 Feb 2008 2:35 PM by georgia Star rating in Algorfa (As seen on .... 1835 posts Send private message

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if its of any interest,this is my take on the situation.

The market will rise and the market will fall,we have such a short time on this planet that we should choose where to live based on the QUALITY it gives us.

I could cut and paste a million things and at the end of it we would all be suicidal.

I bought a house in Spain,I love spain,my family loves Spain and i am certainly not moving because any overpaid analyst says its a bad idea to have a house here!!!!!!

This is why i moved here and this is why i will stay here(see below,the language is a little strong but a humorous take on what i base my decision on rather than some of the twaddle on here)

 

 



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01 Feb 2008 2:48 PM by rowlandsbb Star rating in Gloucestershire &Hue.... 779 posts Send private message

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Well said!

And that view applies to the majority who have bought or who are wanting to buy in Spain....for holiday home, full or part time living ,it is quite simply, 'life style'

It is 46 years since I started to study property economics so you could say I have seen it all!........and the evidence is that long term in Spain, EU or UK ,your purchase now  will turn out to be a good investment 

Always best to buy is a slow or static market!!!



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01 Feb 2008 2:55 PM by patpur Star rating in Castle Bromwich Bir.... 389 posts Send private message

Here Here Georgia its quality of life that counts l have never seen such a concerted effort by all the experts to talk up a world recession (must be a reason why they want it) its happened before and will again but we are still here.Pat



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01 Feb 2008 3:16 PM by Patty_1 Star rating in Hertfordshire. UK. .... 1062 posts Send private message

Georgia you do make me laugh,  which let's face it that is what life is about not all doom and gloom.  We have been through recession's before and pulled through it all, if we analysis everything in life you would not do anything so what is the point.   I am very  happy with what we have done and I do love the quality of life in Spain.   Let's face it some people get theirselves  into a lot of debt and they are their own worse enemy.  That is my opinion on some of the situation's out their, only some mind you.  A lot it is not their fault.   Pat  

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01 Feb 2008 4:12 PM by pknott Star rating in Costa Blanca. 142 posts Send private message

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If you haven't got it don't spend it....thats what my Dad told me and you don't get better advice than that!!


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01 Feb 2008 4:17 PM by morerosado Star rating. 6927 posts Send private message

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Was your dad my dad, sounds just like him.  Mine had a bike, ha ha.

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01 Feb 2008 6:11 PM by Candyfloss Star rating in Cardiff / Mar Menor. 1605 posts Send private message

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Market picking up nicely here thank you.



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01 Feb 2008 6:19 PM by happylarry Star rating in northants. 6 posts Send private message

been watching on here for a little while now.

There seems to be so much bad press at the moment so i am hoping that someone will tell me its not all bad

i am hoping to relocate to spain with my young family,the video georgia put on here sums up my life in england so do you think its worth a try



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01 Feb 2008 6:37 PM by Candyfloss Star rating in Cardiff / Mar Menor. 1605 posts Send private message

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Hi Happy Larry (great name)

Welcome to the madhouse, I mean forum  .

It's not as bad as the press make out!! All the scaremongering drives me up the wall and the sheep that follow it and take it as gospel really should be asking the professionals. As i said in my last post, the market is picking up, sure it's not a booming market as it was, but the confidence has definately returned and people are buying. Good luck with your move, can't wait to get there permanently myself





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01 Feb 2008 6:43 PM by patpur Star rating in Castle Bromwich Bir.... 389 posts Send private message

Hi Happy Larry simple answer is yes it is worth it,Pat



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01 Feb 2008 6:47 PM by morerosado Star rating. 6927 posts Send private message

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Hi Happy Larry, welcome to our forum.

"There's a better life" says Eric Burdon "we gotta get outta this place" as in your signature.




This message was last edited by morerosado on 2/1/2008.

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01 Feb 2008 6:47 PM by happylarry Star rating in northants. 6 posts Send private message

thanks candyfloss,i am still keen on a move after all the alternatives are stay in england and i am not happy here anymore.

it does seem like a minefield though,who to use,who not to!

this seems to be the place to get advice so i will stay tuned.



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01 Feb 2008 6:51 PM by Patty_1 Star rating in Hertfordshire. UK. .... 1062 posts Send private message

Hi HappyLarry if you are like your name then do not worry. Do your research though especially for the children.  Do not jump in the deep end without a paddle.  Heed the advice given on this forum.   Then you should be fine. Ask lot's  of questions no matter how silly if it helps you.   It can be a great life.   I love it.   Good Luck Pat 

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01 Feb 2008 7:14 PM by morerosado Star rating. 6927 posts Send private message

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I think far too many people don't like the UK for many reasons & think it's a better life in Spain, or wherever else they read about. It will only work if you read up, especially on the many forums about these days, EOS being the best, of course.  Don't rush into things, there are many pitfalls but, for example, if you need to work, ensure you have some to go to before moving (some just seem to up & go without due care & consideration, then are in the s**t) Sort your kids out with schooling or know how to get them enrolled before going on your escape route to the sun. Sort out a place to live, etc, etc.

This forum is chokka with advice but I rarely feel that newcomers spend enough time reading about things that are so relevant to them. Justin has a whole section dedicated to Living in and moving to Spain, not to mention all the thousands of other great reads.  Then we are all here to help if we can.

TTFN



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01 Feb 2008 8:18 PM by TJ222 Star rating. 317 posts Send private message

Atlast some comment - I was beginning to get lonely lol.

Perhaps I need to state my position here again:

I 100% agree with comments about Spain being a great place to live, lifestyle etc etc - I am afterall here and loving it too, the weather has been superb since I have been here last Autumn, and my family of little girls are loveing it too.

Let me be clear what I'm saying.

Firstly I'm trying to open people's eyes to what is happening in the wider world with banks and the money system, because its interesting and the real situation is not often written about, the gov. has a very real reason for hideing the truth from us all. However as well as being interesting to some people, not everyone I know, it actually does affect everyone, wether they like it or not. What happens in the US will affect all of us here, mostly in terms of inflation and our standard of living.

Secondly what is going on at the moment is not a standard thing in history. Yes recessions have come and gone, but this one coming is going to turn to a depression and the collapse of the dollar. Many currencies have collapsed in history, but never one that is the reserve currency of the world. There is going to be a lot of suffering as the world adjust to cleansing from decades of debt fueled consumption. The worst hit are going to be those people who are up to their eyeballs in debt, includeing those people who have leveraged themselves on property.

Eventually interest rates are going to be set by the free market, rather than by meddeling governments, as it should always have been. When this happens, rates are going to return to historic norms, but before they do they will have to go much much higher to cleanse the system. Don't expect them to return to 4% tho, historicasl norms are around 7-8%.

This adjustment is going to wipe out millions of people, and folks with property at home and a home abroad are going to be particularly vulnerable, btl is going to be toast.

The developed world has to get back to productive work, rather than just consumption. The US and UK economies are around 2/3rds consumption based and this is not sustainable as evidenced by their growing deficits - Spain having the worst in the world relative to GDP. Imagine if someone asked you what you did for a living and you said I mainly consume things, like tvs and household goods etc. Its ludicrous and history will have this period down as a time of madness.

The fact that it has been going on for years is because up til now the US for example as been able to borrow from the rest of the world, mainly Asia. However the rest of the world is now coming to realise that they are not going to get their money back, cos the Yanks have been depreciating their currency to try and inflate out of their mess.

China has a store of dollars = to around 1 trillion, thats a thousand billion dollars in return for all their productive exports which we all enjoy. Thanks to the Yanks devalueing their dollars, the Chinese have lost around 1/3 trillion dollars just in the last year.

Imagine if you lent somone money and they did that to you? How long are the world going to finance the US and UK at that rate? The answer is not long.

Anyway I digress, I have been trying to warn people about over inflated prices in Spain and the risks associated with borrowing money against such property.

The truth is that there are thousands of people trying to do the opposite. Fooling innocent punters ( who should know better, but don't) into purchaseing property here at prices that will ruin them. Just look across this very board at all the people that have been ripped off, with crappy deals, late construction etc etc the sad story continues. This very board contains a database of hundreds of 2 bed apartments, overpriced by about 50%, owned by desperate decent people just trying to get their money back. And yet at the same time there are people trying to sell more over priced rubbish to innocent people. As if enough damage has not already been done.

The simple fact is that property here is in a bubble of enormous proportions. Its in a bubble because naieve and greedy people came here in their droves, and bid property up to speculative highs based on interest  rates unsustainably low and much too easy credit. Most people now accept this and that credit was too easy to obtain, but if you accept this then you must also accept the fact that this produced false prices which must return to more sensible levels, based on normal credit conditions and more realistic interest rates.

The real demand was not based on people coming here to live and enjoy Spain, as you and I do, but by speculation to make a quick buck. If you don't believe this tthen why are all these people now trying to sell, rather then live in their homes. Also why do property developers and shows always plug relentlessly the investment angle, promising X% returns a year, all financed by year round rentals lol. And if it was not investment, why have all the punters suddenly dissapeared as the market started to look weak?

I plan to buy a house some day, but why would I want to buy now. I can rent the same house for half as much, which just goes to show how overpriced stuff is. People keep saying but ist the quality of life etc thats important. But I say sure, what kind of quality of life are you going to have if you buy something that then falls in price by 50% and you need to sell say for illness or 100 other reasons you don't currently know. What quality of life will you have if you pay too much for a house and then have to work all hours just to pay for it, cos the payments are so high. People hunt around shops to save a few euros on the price of a kilo of tomatoes, but suddenly when it comes to the price of property they don't care that they overpaid 100k euros lol. get real if you over pay for veg your life is not going to suffer, if you overpay for a house it really will.

I can enjoy all the aspects of life here, sun, sangria etc without getting mugged buying an apartment of which there are millions without buyers. A very few billionaire property developers have got rich beyound beleif, at the expense of thousands of honest naive folks. Fortunately many of these developers are now going bust themselves, since their greed knew no end and they didn;t know when to quit.

To summarise I am actually trying to protect people and to get them to think very hard before buying here, not something many people did a lot of. To think that many people bought "their dream apartment" on the back of a weekend inspection trip makes me shudder.

To all those people who live here happily, please continue enjoying your lives and read this thread for interest only, and perhaps think about your own debt levels, because decades of consumer debt is about to bite alot of people. To be fair to me look back to the start of this thread and the date. It was long before the stockmarket crash, Northern Rock, crisis talks by government etc  Trust me its going to get a lot worse.

 

 

 



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01 Feb 2008 8:55 PM by rowlandsbb Star rating in Gloucestershire &Hue.... 779 posts Send private message

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I'm sorry but get real!!

US interest rates are now down to 3% and the world follows and for good economic reasons they will get lower

The last time the US 'thought' they were facing problems they went to 1%......if nothing else they know how to look after their economy!

From my experience [which I have said in my last post on this issue goes back a long time ] this credit crunch, as they are now calling it , is not as bad as the 70's property crash which was caused for the same reason...banks over extending themselves....and a big clearer bank was saved by the Bank of England!   

Wish I had bought in Spain in the 70's!!

70's was a high inflation economy, now it is a low inflation economy in EU and also for the majority of property owners in EU ,loan to value ratio is low and for holiday /part- full time homes ,even lower than average

So whilst the market in EU is static, very few have to sell but for those wanting to buy ,now is a good time

Sensible developers in Spain are setting prices at today's level....eg .2 bed maisonette in the popular Orihuela Costa from 104.000 € [ and yes when finished in Sept 08 you will get your HC before you complete].............even probably pay 10% deposit on contracts as per UK and balance on completion in Sept

No mad hurry to reserve property and fix price as in last few years...so take your time

Serious good re sales at sensible prices

The odd  depressed sale...if you can find one !....the best go to the Spanish dealers....like in UK 

The doom guys do not reflect reality for the 'life style buyer'

PS; I am not only an agent but a buyer!



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01 Feb 2008 9:01 PM by flyingcat Star rating in London/Mojacar. 85 posts Send private message

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Well well well, TJ222,

You are really a negotive old soul, are not you?

Myself is a financial professional (although in different areas). I have had very bad investment i.e.dot com boom bust and very good investment i.e. emerging market BRICK counties and commodities. Property market is like stock market, it is about sentiment. Right now sentiment on Spainish property market may not sound good, but can you show me some hard economic dates such as what is employment rate of Spain y-o-y for last three year? what is repossession rate say m-o-m for last 18 month? One charactor of Spanish property market is similar as UK proterty market which is there are strong purchasing powers from outside, in UK's case the money pour in from Russia, Middle East, newly found rich of East Europe and in Spain there are plenty Brit, German and Northern European. Those purchasing power are not directly correlated with Spain economy.

You keep quote that Spain property is 50% overpriced. That is a huge bubble you are talking about. In reality, until I see those hard dates you are not comvince me the bubble is as big as you say and hence we are not any where near the burst point. And burst may never come if there is not a big bubble at first place. And for most buyers, at least on EOS, I have not seen many speculators. Mojarity of us are genuine buyer. I am buying for 'life style' and not for investment.

I did buy on the back of weekend trip and that is because as a busy professionals I would never have the time to rent and live there for few months before I buy.

Once a famous person said  'you can talk yourselves into recession'. 

 





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01 Feb 2008 11:16 PM by patpur Star rating in Castle Bromwich Bir.... 389 posts Send private message

Hi flying cat totaly agree as l said a dozen posts a go there seems to be a conspirey to talk up a recession well l am not going to let them depress me,take no notice and enjoy your home in the sun.Pat.



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01 Feb 2008 11:40 PM by Candyfloss Star rating in Cardiff / Mar Menor. 1605 posts Send private message

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Facts, figures, newspapers, media?????  Read what you will, but I can say from the the practical side not the theory that the market is alive and kicking and not just in Wales, I talk to agents all over the country. Was speaking to a London agent today and he said that they are getting the same positive response. As for the prospective buyers that keep saying that they are waiting for the crash before they buy??? I think they may be backing the wrong horse there!!!  The Spanish market has slowed down, granted, can't argue with that. Over supply outstripping demand and the days of flipping properties for profit are long gone as I have said before in numerous posts. But it was 2 years ago here, so obviously follows on. The market will recover, it always does. It won't be another 80's disaster, (I worked in agency at that time and it wasn't good), Just hang on in there and be positive. Basically if you do buy a property in Spain, just don't rely on rental income to keep it afloat and it'll be great!! Just my experience on the market as it is right now.



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02 Feb 2008 12:10 AM by Patty_1 Star rating in Hertfordshire. UK. .... 1062 posts Send private message

Yes I agree Gina,   I still believe if you in invest in bricks and mortar you cannot go wrong.   TJ222 are you saying when we bought our apartment we should have got it for 50% less than we paid, I am sorry I cannot believe that.   I understand you are trying to educate us but I do not think it is working.  Their are too many people out their that are happy with their life in Spain and what they have purchased.       If you choose to rent that is fine it is your choice, but to me that is dead money.   Things will pick up it might take time, but I believe it will happen just my opinion.  I am sorry it makes you shudder but we bought on a 4day trip we never intended to but we really liked it and the price was right.      I am so glad we did.    Pat  

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