Using a UK Registered van for business in Spain

 Hi gang,

not sure if this has been asked before.

But I am thinking of starting a food business off in my part of Spain, I currently have moved back to the UK, but wanto to know if I used UK registered vans for deliveries for my business in Spain, and the business still be registered as a UK business, would I get grief off the Spanish police using a UK vehicle for business?

Any thoughts much appreciated.

many thanks

Jay

Yes it would if it is here permanently, It would be illegal. In addition if it was signwritten that would also be illegal as that is an offence on its own ; you cannot have a foreign registered vehicle advertising a business.

OK, thanks for the reply, I did not know that, 

that seems very restrictive, but where do you start with that arguement in Spain.

The main reason (which I will post in a seperate thread), that I wanted to use a UK registered van is because vans in Spain are so expensive, but I will ask where good places/websites are to buy good value vans in another thread.

Many thanks

 another incidental about using a UK van in spain , raised the other day, is if you try to register it in Spain the authorites will not allow it, as seeing through a steel panel side on a english van at a junction is very dangerous, as the seat is on the wrong side for the driver in Spain, and therefore vision is restricted.

I have driven english artic trucks round most of europe over the years, and certain junctions can be very awkward, to the point of being dangerous, and a english van is the same

If you are considering using a van long term in Spain i would advise that the use of a spanish left hand drive van would be the sensible and safe way to go in Spain. Also, using a UK van for food use would also raise the possibility of conflicts with the Spanish Authorities on a environmental health registration basis.

The fact that your business is english registered, and the vehicles, it could be argued that the vehicles are just delivering from the UK, which means the vans come under UK and EU health and business regulations, but if you have a business property in Spain you are beginning to tread some dangerous ground..................

Spanish law doesn't allow you to matriculate a RHD commercial vehicle in Spain.

If your UK Limited Co. is operating through your property in Spain, then the tax authorities will probably view that Ltd Co as having a presence in Spain and will require you to do either a) register a 'branch' of your Ltd Co on the regional mercantile register or b) register a wholly owned subsidary on the regional mercantile register. This of course exposes you to setup costs, ongoing tax submissions, filing of anual accounts etc. and they may also demand that a subsidary or branch requires at least 1 employee.

These are general rules and there may be ways that you can get around the above. I.e. could you demonstrate that you are infact 'distance selling' as I THINK (note this may not be fact) that this means you can operate without having a subsidary or branch.

You MAY still need to register for IVA in Spain - you will need to take advice on this, as it depends upon how you operate, are you or your cusomers VAT or IVA registered, European harmonised tax rules such as 'place of supply' etc.

I'd look at researching Distance Selling first - VAT / IVA will be your principle area of complication, so note such things as 'proof of export', EC Sales List, Intrastat .... the laws in both countries. A lot of aticles on the internet are well out of date, so try and address official sources. It all sounds daunting but if your familiar with taxation issues, and it seems you should be as you have a UK Ltd Co., with good solid investigation all should 'click' in. The secret is .... know what your getting into before you jump.

In terms of transport / distribution, have you considered an alliance. Generally speaking, food product distribution to the UK from Spain goes from Barcelona hubs and with an alliance with the Spanish suppliers, you could take advantage of a lower backhaul rate.

As mentioned before, if you UK matriculated van is kept in Spain it is illegal and Robert has already highlighted the facts about a 'business' property in Spain ... the implications I have covered off above. I agree with Robert that you can demonstrate that the van is used for deliveries from ES to UK, and I'll also add that it can have signwriting on it ..... just make sure there is no reference to a Spanish tel # / email / address.

Don't be put off by all this and best of luck in your venture,

Mike

 Mortimms reply gives some very good points in addition to all the previous ones, but Jaytb, have you considered all these possible implicatiions? You say you are "thinking"of starting a food business in Spain, maybe it would be easier just to do everything to a Spanish standard, and set things up to comply with Spanish Regulations and laws from day one? This may be a little more to do in the beginning, but once you are up and running you will get many rewards for doing it properly, instead of trying to save a little here and there, which never works.

If you research the vehicle requirements, including their use for carrying food, premises registration and compliance, tax liabilities, ETC, you should have no trouble operating profitably there, the Spanish manage it, so why not you? A little thought and research before you start and the rewards should come back easily. Best of luck with your venture!

If the company was UK registered, UK based, UK Tax, UK roadworthy then no you would have no problems in Spain.

However you should probably contact a UK haulage association for advice as there might need specific documentation needed to prove everything as if the vehicle spends a lot of time in Spain then technically it may need to be registered there if you were an average joe but I would assume there is probably documentation for this instance.

Failing that constant the DVLA who I would say will be able to pass you onto someone if they can not help themselves.

In terms of you saying it's 'very restrictive' it's not at all, LHD countries roads are NOT designed with any thought to RHD vehicles and why should they? so any vehicle that gives you restricted view (say a panel van) can be VERY dangerous on some stretches of roads. Much the same as on some roads in the UK LHD vehicles can be dangerous.

 If as Delza says , everything was english registered, and operated from the UK there is no real problem, but if you start  a Spanish office, you would most likely find that apart from UK import of goods to Spain,specially if the vehicle remains in Spain for some time, local multiple deliveries would have to come into line with Spanish regulations if done regularly. The other thing is wether the environmental food regulations for a delivery vehicle would be complied with when using a UK vehicle for local deliveries in Spain.

As for documentation, if you were exporting goods from the UK you would have to comply with and fill out a CMR delivery note for the carriage of goods across the EU for each delivery run undertaken. This is a EU wide note system, and if stopped by any policeman, in any EU country, and you are not carrying one suitably completed they will fine you for incomplete documentation. 

Hope that clarifies things a little more, Regards, Rob.

If you are looking for cheaper vehicles .... then you might want to consider looking at getting a second hand one from Germany and matriculating it in Spain or UK. A few of my Spanish friends have done this with cars, as initial purchase in Germany has been much cheaper and even with the matriculation cost, they've still ended up better off.

I've recently been informed that when re-matriculating a vehicle from Germany, the Spanish will "only register the vehicle exactly as what is described on the foreign log book & in the case of Germany this is more detailed than a spanish log book". So make sure the German Log Book describes it for the use you require .... if rematriculating in Spain.

Spain isn't restrictive, as the law is the same in the UK .... if a foreign registered vehicle is here for over a certain amount of time, it has to be UK registered.

Regards,

Mike

Another consideration may be that UK residents are not allowed to use non-UK registered vehicles on UK roads. The only exceptions are:

a) If you work in another EU member state and use an EU-registered company car temporarily in the UK for business and private purposes.

b) If you lease an EU-registered car and use this temporarily in the UK

What make of Van is it? I only ask because in this instance I have a UK ex postie Vauxhall Combo van on Spanish plates so the peeps on here don't know everything as they would make out in other topics!

 robertt8696 -  This (CMR) is a EU wide note system, and if stopped by any policeman, in any EU country, and you are not carrying one suitably completed they will fine you for incomplete documentation. 

Bob, surely this doesn't apply if you are transporting your own goods - as I understood jaytb wanted to do?  Don't CMRs only apply to carriers transporting stuff for other people, ie contract for carriage of goods? I don't think you could be fined for not having a CMR while ferrying your own vanload of mushy peas which you intended to sell on the CDS. I may well be wrong.

 GuyT, please note the following words ,also in my contribution, "if you were exporting goods from the UK you would have to comply with and fill out a CMR delivery note for the carriage of goods across the EU for each delivery run undertaken." i use the word "exporting", goods for personal use are not considered exporting and are exempt from CMR carriage, as you say, but if you are" ferrying your own vanload of mushy peas which you intended to sell on the CDS" it pretty well sounds like business use of goods carriage, and would be subject to export declaration and carriage, as they would no longer be for personal use as they are being sold on to a wider world, not kept for personal use

 Hi Bob - I don't mean to be argumentative.  A CMR, which is a waybill, only applies to haulage firms, courier companies, etc..

"What the CMR note is

The CMR is a consignment note with a standard set of transport and liability conditions, which replaces individual businesses' terms and conditions. It confirms that the carrier (ie the road haulage company) has received the goods and that a contract of carriage exists between the trader and the carrier." http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?itemId=1078039470&type=RESOURCES

The same website gives info on exporting goods to the EU

"Export declarations

If you are selling goods within the European Union (EU), most goods are in free circulation and can be freely moved from the UK to other EU countries without customs controls or charges. It's good practice to accompany shipments with a commercial invoice and a packing list if appropriate."

There are common sense restrictions on some exports, eg military & sensitive technology, firearms, etc and one would need accompanying documention if transporting dangerous goods,  plants, animals, etc. And we all know alcohol/tobacco have their own importation restrictions,  but by and large if our hero wishes to transport his 2 tons of mushy peas in his own van from UK to Spain he needs no more paperwork than if he was transporting them from Cardiff to London. As it says above, an invoice or packing list would be useful if stopped by police who were curious what you were carrying. 

Running a business is difficult enough without us adding our own regulations. 

I'd sincerely appreciate any links to the contrary. 

 thanks for your post Guyt, but you state,

Export declarations

If you are selling goods within the European Union (EU), most goods are in free circulation and can be freely moved from the UK to other EU countries without customs controls or charges. It's good practice to accompany shipments with a commercial invoice and a packing list if appropriate."

the good practice of accompanying goods with a commercial invoice and a packing list where appropriate is correct, but if you got stopped in a commercial vehicle in transit from one EU memberstate to another, the good old boys in blue, in whatever country you are stopped in will require the production of a CMR, as to them its a universal , commercial invoice, with standard notorisation, and multiple european languages on it so almost any member state can clearly understand it.

You also define the CMR as,

a consignment note with a standard set of transport and liability conditions, which replaces individual businesses' terms and conditions. It confirms that the carrier (ie the road haulage company) has received the goods and that a contract of carriage exists between the trader and the carrier

Aconsignment note is a "commercial Invoice" it also defines the goods carried in the manner of a "packing list", and a contract will exist anyway between trader and carrier, as both would be Jaytb, so no problems there.

The way most countries police forces work with regard to international transport, especially in my experience, Spain and Italy, they love paperwork, and for the small inconvienience of hand writing a CMR yourself prior to commencing your trip, all paperwork requirements in any EU country are satisfied, and hence less hassle for Jaytb, rather than more. Regards, Rob

hi

i want to provide a man n van service in mallorca, i have found a spanish van from a main dealer, do i need any operating licence or just register as self employed?

id be much obliged for any reply, thank you :-)