Bad news in Spain!

THIS ONES FOR YOU NORMAN, JUST THINK YOUR VERY OWN THREAD AND YOURS TO KEEP. YOU'LL NEVER HAVE TO POST ANYWHERE ELSE AGAIN....ENJOY!

JUST A FEW THINGS LISTED BELOW TO HELP GET YOU STARTED!

Spanish Government faces flak over property scams 

 Spanish Government faces flak over property scams ... to act on extensive property scams, affecting British and other buyers of Spanish
 

Spain to crack down on corrupt politicians after spate of scandals ...

Costa del Sol
Marbella Town Hall looking for urgent 10 million € loan
The opposition has criticised the operation which they claim shows the ayuntamiento has run out of money
 

Costa del Sol
Six arrests in Alhaurín el Grande following bullrunning torture
The events at the end of the town fair have brought national publicity and condemnation in Spain
 

Costa del Sol
Thieves blow up cashpoint in Coín
It's the third similar robbery on the Costa del Sol
 

I think this last message is in very bad taste and should be removed.  Certain people using this site are not in a good position, cheated out of their pensions and still living in England and struggling.  Many cannot afford the luxury of being as smug as you so do not criticise and belittle those who have problems they need to shout about to get support.  People often forget that so long as "I'm all right Jack" that the feelings and situations of those less fortunate are not important.  So if the negative or desparate threads annoy you then just ignor them but do not make fun of those who are desparate for justice.

M11block,

What you don't seem to realise, is that Norman invades every good or happy thread and tries to make out that those who are happy and have had success in Spain are all lying through there teeth!

I mean any thread that has anything remotely positive to say about Spain, in he gets and starts his usual incoherent ramblings.

Just take a look at the thread Good News in Spain!

Norman has made it perfectly clear that he has had problems, but he doesn't need to invade every thread on this forum and keep ramming it down every body's throat!

We all agree that there have been scams here in Spain in the past where people have been cheated out of their life savings and pensions, but it doesn't only happen here in Spain, as the likes of Norman would have you believe, and such people shouldn't be allowed to invade every positive thread and make out that those who have not been affected in such a manner are 'sillies' because they like Spain, and 'smug' because they are 'lucky' that such hasn't happened to them.

So I'm with redsam79 on this.

A thread just for Norman... and his few EOS friends who do the same!

Edited to say:

Norman wasn't, IMHO, cheated out of his money. He decided to purchase off-plan, but when the finished property, yes! it was finished, didn't match up to the spec in the brochure, coupled with the fact that the completion was running late, he decided not to complete!

He is not in the same league as those who have been cheated, who have nothing but an empty plot of land to show for their money.

He could have completed and at least have a property, and then he could have started legal proceedings for breach of contract. Even better he could have put the remainder of the money owed into a notarised account here in Spain, and then started legal action.

By not completing he broke the contract, not the promoter, and that is the way any lawyer or judge would look at it.

Lighten up M11block, don't take things too seriously,

We all have our problems......some of us just choose to deal with them differently.

Should I tell you  first about my eldest son Steven who is severely disabled with syringomyelia and hydrocephalus (look them up) and needs a wheel chair, has very limited movement in either leg or arm..no...then what about my daughter Stephanie who has a nut allergy and is only ever one bite away form a severe anaphylactic reaction (look that up to)...no...then should I tell you about my own problems, some of them as bad an experience as any one deserves to have never mind the added problems of Steve and Steph.....so please don't call me smug when you know nothing about me, I too probably have good reason to shout and complain about every thing and any thing but I choose not too as does my wife who is Stevens full time carer as well as mother.

Steven would gladly swap his problems with Normans or probably anyone elses on EOS, instead he gets on with it as best he can.

THE REASON WE GET KNOCKED DOWN IS SO WE CAN  LEARN HOW TO GET BACK UP.

This message was last edited by redsam79 on 06/06/2010.

Well said M11Block.

Those cheated will NEVER go away until they have justice,i.e., a home or their money refunded (whichever applies). Sweeping the problems  under the carpet, or refusing to acknowledge that they  besmirched  every aspect of property purchase in Spain, will NEVER change things or quieten those who were robbed.This site gives those people a voice in a situation where they feel they haven't got one, and is one of the reasons that it is so successful.

Sarcastic,belittling or insulting comments will not drive them away so it is probably best to regard them as 'popup' adverts on threads where you might feel they are unapropriate,i.e.,ignore them

I'm a member of a very large local forum to me where there are many members who I choose not to read posts by & there is, in our settings, a 'friend' & 'foe' setting & you can type 'Norman' into the 'foe' one so you never see posts by him or be alerted to posts in threads you're following that he's posted in, he basically doesn't exist.

Redsam

I am sorry to hear of your personal problems and empathise with you, but as you say not everyone wants to publish their personal problems and burden, many of us also have our personal tragedies and thought a quiet place in the sun might have been a godsend for many family members.  We are not jealous of those who live in Spain and do not want to 'down' all those lucky enough to be able to enjoy its benefits, but we would hope that those in a happier position would show some sympathy for the injustice others have been suffering for years who may never be able to enjoy the benefits Spain has to offer. 

If you started this particular thread to make light of people's problems then I think you are wrong, however, I do believe that there should be a thread just dedicated to those who want to air their problems, ask for support, warn people of the dangers and, yes hopefully one day sing the praises of the lawyers when they finally get their monies or properties back.  Maybe call it 'Problems buying in Spain', I think I would be happy to see that and perhaps it would also stop rogue mailers just knocking the good happier threads.

M11 and sandra, there are, literally, dozens of threads on this site relating to problems buying in Spain.  Just have a quick look at the buying property section.  There are loads of posts pointing out the pitfalls, the things that went wrong, how people overcame them (or are trying to overcome them) and even some from me naming and shaming bad developers, lawyers, builders and generally crooks.  We all realise the problems and, I am sure, the majority of us can both sympathise and empathise with those who have been ripped off (including me at one time).  It has taken some of us years (in my case 7 years) to resolve problems and some are still ongoing.  We have even emailed, faxed, texted and written to MEPs, MPs, local government officials and I even went through the trading standards at Dorking due to one of the firms being of English origin (search and you will find those posts).  So please don't come away with the idea that we are making light of these problems because we aren't.  We have posted how we went about it, how we avoided it in further deals and try to help where we can.  However, when something goes right, I believe we have the right to post that as well.  Unfortunately, some annoyances then jump in with, quite frankly, some rather nasty comments about having heads stuck in the sand, ignoring the plight of those for whom it hasn't gone well etc etc and completely ignoring the problems some of us faced as well.  Every bit of sympathy I had for one particular annoyance has flown out of the window due to spiteful, ignorant comments as if those of us couldn't give a damn which is as far from the truth as you can possibly get.  Those of us who have managed to resolve the problems are perfectly willing to explain how we went about it, how we got around sticking points, how we had to pay over the odds to take builders and developers to court (in my case, 5 times) and how we coped with the frustrations of the Spanish legal system. 

No, we will never forget the anxieties many of you are still going through and will be perfectly willing to sign up to any petition, round-robin letter or whatever if it helps to bring about a successful resolution to your problems or, more likely, to at least make you feel better and believe that something is being done.  However, now things are going right, and a lot of that is to do with the advice and help given on this site, we don't want it rammed down our throats every time we post something just a little optimistic about Spain and nor, more especially, do we want to made to feel guilty about it as if it were, somehow, our fault. 

I will continue to post anything good I come across which I feel may be of benefit to others.  On the other hand, I will continue to point out things that have gone wrong or if I receive bad service from anywhere as  I feel that may be of benefit, too.  I will not wear sackcloth and ashes nor have a miserable look on my face as I take another dip into my glorious swimming pool complex as if I should be ashamed of myself.  Because I'm not. 

I think redsam started this thread purely to keep one particular annoyance away from the positive side of life in Spain.

Next time you're over, PM me and come and visit my new place.  I'll show you the lessons I learned at the beginning, the worry and angst we had over our first purchase (now all, thankfully, resolved and fully up and running with all paperwork in hand and no worries whatsoever on that score, but only after 7 years finally resolved 18 months ago) and the way we overcame these pitfalls when making our second purchase. 

Life really can be good in Spain.  Honest.

I've got no interest in getting involved in the rights or wrongs of what individuals say, everyone has the choice to ignore it or make a response. The "friend & foe" setting mentioned by More is good automatic solution for folks who want to avoid the associated stress.

However, just a specific point related to TechNoApe's comment;

"By not completing he broke the contract, not the promoter, and that is the way any lawyer or judge would look at it"

If the development was not completed within the defined timescales of the original contract (even if it was subsequently completed), the Developer is in breach of contract (irrespective of specification issues). All lawyers I'm aware of would look at it that way, including the EOS Superstar Lawyer on this site.

Regards

DoubleJ,

"If the development was not completed within the defined timescales of the original contract (even if it was subsequently completed), the Developer is in breach of contract (irrespective of specification issues). All lawyers I'm aware of would look at it that way, including the EOS Superstar Lawyer on this site."

I'm not going to argue about legal interpretation, but:

Late build completion is not breach of contract, as there will be a penalty clause put into the contract should the build not complete on time. Subsequently the promoter should be ordered to pay compensation to the purchaser, but the purchaser must pay what they have agreed in the initial contract.

If the promoter is late on completion, and an offer of compensation, if one is made, and not accepted then you are still required to pay what you have agreed and then instigate legal action.

Not paying the final installment for the completed property, whether late or not, is breach of contract.

All lawyers I'm aware of will say "that is the way a Judge will look at it!" including a lawyer I was speaking to some considerable time ago, and I asked this specific question.

Perhaps you will find that there were other issues at stake here, i.e. not just late delivery but false promises in the form of non provision of facilities as per the marketing literature, (classed as part of the contract), plus non provision of Bank Guarantee (as per the contract), plus delivery beyond the defined contingency period taking into account any force majeure that may require contesting.......  etc.

By the way to expect a client to complete on a substandard product with late delivery is wrong, ultimately very costly and plays into the hands of the errant developer. No-one should have to accept a product that is anything other than what was specified from the outset and to suggest otherwise makes a mockery of the whole buying process in Spain.

Others have won cases for breach of contract against all these issues but still not received justice in the form of monies returned, due a legal administration system that through significant delays also plays into the hands of the errant developer who abuses the system, asset strips in the interim in their attempt to avoid paying their debts, so it's not as black and white as you suggest.

The only way to resolve continual problems akin to this is to tackle the problem at source and ensure that a fair justice system is in place that makes those accountable pay within defined timescales. To stop the abuse and correct a system that effectively allows abuse to flourish.That's what most of those who have sadly been caught up in this Spanish Property Scandal fiasco are fighting for.

So long as you suggest alternative ploys to counter this abuse, the longer the abuse will continue. It needs to be stopped at source.

p.s. I requested some time back a separate section entitled Justice Issues and Justin responded that he would provide this.....perhaps you've been too busy Justin?

Ads wrote

By the way to expect a client to complete on a substandard product with late delivery is wrong, ultimately very costly and plays into the hands of the errant developer. No-one should have to accept a product that is anything other than what was specified from the outset and to suggest otherwise makes a mockery of the whole buying process in Spain

Yes but, I think the point Techno was making and one I would also agree with is if you have a property that you can complete on for gods sake do it, least you haven't lost your deposit and you can still take all the legal action you like after completion to sue for any breach of contract.

Not ideal I know, but better than no property,lost deposit and in essence the same legal action.

Steve

So you are then left with negative equity, i.e. an asset that is probably worth half the outgoing cost (if you are lucky), unable to sell, with a mortgage (if you can get one) that will tie you into debt for goodness knows how long, that your outgoings on increased maintenance will be indicative of a developer who fails to pay his dues to the community, surrounded by a ghost town of properties that the developer has failed to sell, (no surprise if the product is substandard), with no promised infrastructure so you can't rent, left with a product you are very unhappy with that's costing you an arm and a leg......... oh I could go on and on.

And the worst point of all.....you have solved nothing in terms of letting the abusive developer off the hook to be made accountable (or the Bank for that matter......who should have provided the BG in the first place).

Sorry that's not good advice at all given the scenario that the product is substandard.......... in the longer term you will finish up with outgoings far in excess of your deposit I'm afraid, in fact you will be left with a burden ad infinitum. Only those who have money to burn could afford to make good the developer's non provision let alone make good the building defects, and that doesn't take into account the fact that you are paying for a property and development that you never intended to buy given the lack of provision etc. That's not pleasure, it's a lifetime's burden you don't deserve.

Where's the logic in that pray tell?

This message was last edited by ads on 07/06/2010.

AdsI

If I was a Aifos investor I would prefer my logic because unfortunatly they will get nothing whatsoever, I hope i'm wrong.

S

I do understand Steve, but thought I should be devil's advocate to explain the alternatives.

Don't give up on getting the banks to cough up if Maria has her way!

By the way that's exactly why in the interim we are pushing for a compensation fund from the EU (taken from monies due to Spain)............

If we all (thousands who are fighting legitimate issues right now) got behind that and communicated the need to all and sundry to harass their MEP's then who knows..........

We need a well organised collective and effective vision on this to make developers/banks/regional governments accountable. It's going to take courage and determination but power in numbers and all that, and not just from independent angles but enmasse (i.e. all Spanish justice issues to come together) in my humble opinion.

This message was last edited by ads on 07/06/2010.

This message was last edited by ads on 07/06/2010.

This message was last edited by ads on 07/06/2010.

This message was last edited by ads on 07/06/2010.

Team GB

Steve,

I too hope you are wrong, as I am one of the many persons involved with a purchase from AIFOS. I do understand your logic but since my particular block of apartments were never built we have nothing to complete on ????

Double J,

Many purchase contracts used for Off Plan Purchases in the past few years were pretty standard "Off the Shelf " types and few contained enough protection for the buyers if something went wrong with the development during construction. It's so important to have a completion date entered in the Contract together with any number of clauses that can help to protect the buyers investment.

Too many buyers were at one point too quick to sign Contracts without looking too closely at the content sadly!!

Technocape is right to point out that a delay in completion doesn't necessarily mean that a claim for Breach of Contract is taken for granted? Judges in most cases are looking for both parties to find an acceptablesettlement when the delay in completion is less than a year and generally most purchase contracts include relevant clauses that allow for compensation payments to be calculated.

In my experience  when we encountered long delays I found that my own Contract to be full of holes and key clauses could be subject to be interpretation in any number of ways. In the end I settled out of court but the time and costs associated with making a claim can be ridiculously high!

I would strongly advise anyone purchasing abroad to have your purchase contract translated and reading it carefully before signing it and committing funds!!

If Spain is ever going to be taken seriously by investors in the future then they must put their own house in Order and introduce a Code of Conduct that protects any purchaser!!!

Miket,

Thanks for the response.

Whilst I would agree that our Contract was/is far from ideal, I did get it translated and ensured that clear completion dates were included. It is also clear what the implications are should the buyer fail to make payments (on any grounds).

As you can imagine, irrespective of that, getting our money back remains challenging with absolutely no guarantee of success.

I am in the fortunate position where potentially losing my deposit is painful, but not the end of the world. A useful lesson, albeit a very expensive one. However, I really do feel for those who in a far worse situation

JJ

It's imperative that everyone who has fallen foul of the Spanish system highlight their specific situation on the Spanish Scandal Petition www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk/2.html , and equally for those who feel strongly that these injustices need to be addressed, then support can be demonstrated by writing to as many MEP's as possible asking that they support the parliamentary motion to block EU funds to Spain until such time as justice/compensation is fairly administered.

For those interested here's a list of MEP's you could copy into an email, together with your specific concerns that you wish to report.

Mep Richard Ashworth ; Mep Robert Atkins ; Mep Catherine Beader ; Mep Sharon Bowles ; Mep Philip Bradbourn ; andrew.brons@europarl.europa.eu ; martin.callanan@europarl.europa.eu ; michael.cashman@europarl.europa.eu ; giles.chichester@europarl.europa.eu ; chris@chrisdaviesmep.org.uk ; bairbre.debrun@europarl.europa.eu ; nirj.deva@europarl.europa.eu ; diane.dodds@europarl.europa.eu ; andrew.duff@europarl.europa.eu ; Jill.evans@europarl.europa.eu ; vicky.ford@europarl.europa.eu ; jacqueline.foster@europarl.europa.eu ; ashley.fox@europarl.europa.eu ; julie.girling@europarl.europa.eu ; fiona.hall@europarl.europa.eu ; daniel.hannan@europarl.europa.eu ; malcolm.harbour@europarl.europa.eu ; roger.helmer@europarl.europa.eu ; mary.honeyball@europarl.europa.eu ; richard.howitt@europarl.europa.eu ; ian.hudghton@europarl.europa.eu ; stephen.hughes@europarl.europa.eu ; syed.kamall@europarl.europa.eu ; sajjad.karim@europarl.europa.eu ; jean.lambert@europarl.europa.eu ; caroline.lucas@europarl.europa.eu ; sarah.ludford@europarl.europa.eu ; elizabeth.lynne@europarl.europa.eu ; george.lyon@europarl.europa.eu ; linda.mcavan@europarl.europa.eu ; arlene.mccarthy@europarl.europa.eu ; emma.mcclarkin@europarl.europa.eu ; edward.mcmillan-scott@europarl.europa.eu ; david.martin@europarl.europa.eu ; claude.moraes@europarl.europa.eu ; bill.newtondunn@europarl.europa.eu ; brian.simpson@europarl.europa.eu ; nikki.sinclaire@europarl.europa.eu ; peter.skinner@europarl.europa.eu ; alyn.smith@europarl.europa.eu ; struan.stevenson@europarl.europa.eu ; catherine.stihler@europarl.europa.eu ; robert.sturdy@europarl.europa.eu ; kay.swinburne@europarl.europa.eu ; charles.tannock@europarl.europa.eu ; geoffrey.vanorden@europarl.europa.eu ; derek.vaughan@europarl.europa.eu ; diana.wallis@europarl.europa.eu ; graham.watson@europarl.europa.eu ; glenis.willmott@europarl.europa.eu ; marina.yannakoudakis@europarl.europa.eu

Also cc margrete.auken@europarl.europa.eu and marta.andreasen-office@europarl.europa.eu

Have just caught up with this Bad news in Spain! thread

"p.s. I requested some time back a separate section entitled Justice Issues and Justin responded that he would provide this.....perhaps you've been too busy Justin?''

Do you need another thread? Now you've taken over this one thats at least three already!

I read your postings, sympathise and follow most entreaties to lobby on behalf of those suffering injustice

However more and more threads are being invaded by the justice issues and i feel you could be harming your cause, people may start to switch off.

I accept this thread is about bad news but i thought it was a tongue in cheek pop at Norman for apparently killing the good news thread

It's just my opinion so am happy to accept others to, so if you do comment keep it factual not personal