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The dilemma is mariedav that we did vote out. It had only 2 options on the ballot paper, not 200 with options like out but keep this that and the other, or out but keep what we like. We have made are bed and now need to lie in it.
I do support the argument that the voters were perplexed with all the lies and bullshit they were fed, but that’s politics. And I appreciate that the UK needs to get the best exit deals possible, but I dread this will be at the expense of the costly parasites jumping on the gravy train, and that train will take more detours than a London taxi.
As an illustration of straightforward negotiations ‘’fishing’’. We have our pond and they have their pond and that’s the preliminary point. If they want to fish in our pond and catch kippers OK, as long as we can fish in their pond and catch the same amount. If they don’t like it they can buy and pay for our kippers and we’ll do the same. Plus their kippers are salty and they have more mouths to feed than us, so we won’t be malnourished.
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"That woman's tongue. If it was a bit longer she could shave with it."
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Why would the UK need to renegotiate the reciprocal health care agreement or the bi lateral tax agreement with Spain (or any other country) if both parties are happy with them
These agreements are between Spanish & UK Govts NOT the EU
Yes they are requirements for EU membership and may even use an EU template but Brexit does not negate them or make them invalid
Similar agreement exist between UK and none EU/EE countries and we are not thinking about renegotiating them
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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'I concur with the majority of what you say.'
I don't.
It may be 'Just a few things you need to think about.'
But they just ain't going to happen.
Starting with the first (and apart from the fact that most Brits working in Spain work for themselves) the UK side have already said that they expect to protect the jobs of EU subjects in the UK so there is little reason to suspect it will not be reciprocal especially given the disparity in numbers.
I've not the time to go through the others one at a time, or the patience to see my answers mis-represented.
I'm not advocating that that we go back to zero or even to the bi-lateral agreements from the past (which would be no where near the apocalyptic scene painted). It is, as latterly suggested, something to think about, but I would expect common and mutual interest to prevail.
Some of the comments are nonsense if we get any type of free trade agreement as I fully expect and comment about food prices are laughable if you were around and experienced the rises when we joined.
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The purpose of the post, ena, was to show how ridiculous it is to say just cancel everything and start again. It is very naive to think like that and it does not just affect expats in Spain but this is, after all, eye on Spain. The negotiations are a vital part of the withdrawal process and will take some time. That's why we have a Brexit minister.
It is important that UK tries and gets the best arrangements they can. Just pulling the shutters down will give the UK the worst possible deal even though some of you seem to think the UK is far more important than any other nation.
No, there won't be a second referendum and there shouldn't be. But the UK needs to try and get the best it can without simply saying that's it, we're leaving. It won't do them any good with an attitude like that.
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Could not have put more simpler myself thats why I left Spain and I suggest people take there heads out of the Sand and get back home if they can before its too late
Love Hugh xx
This message was last edited by hughjardon on 20/07/2016.
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Done the Spain thing Happier in the UK
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Apart from your personal derogatory annotations, I concur with the majority of what you say. But most of what you quite accurately point out only relates to British expatiates livelihood in the EU. Of course this is of immense significance to them and this forum, but to the majority who nominated out in a democratic referendum it is of little or no importance. There were always going to be winners and losers.
What is the rationale of your post? In the interest of British expatiates are you wanting the referendum annulled, repeated or British expatiates excluded from the consequences of the out vote?.
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"That woman's tongue. If it was a bit longer she could shave with it."
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The second Hillsborough enquiry commenced on 31st March 2014 and announced it's findings on 26th April 2016, this was mainly due to the disaster occuring 25 years previously, and there being an extensive police cover up. The UK leaving the EU is a completely different kettle of fish, if there is a will to settle this amicably without dragging it out then it will happen, conversally if it is purposely dragged out in the hope that a future Labour government may find an excuse to reverse the will of the people, then drag. it out they will. However looking at the current state of the Labour Party it's future leader is most likely still attending university.
This message was last edited by Hephaestus on 20/07/2016.
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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ena
The majority voted out, that means out of the EU. We can’t be out and in at the same time. So all EU treaties and agreements will become bonfire material. It’s start again time and that might be a good thing. You can’t leave the club but still want the bits you like and not the bits you don’t like. Make your mind up it’s one way or the other. It’s not like getting the sack at work but still turning up every day. Delusion.
Yes, I know the majority voted out.** EDITED - Against forum rules - Inciting**
Every Brit working in Spain will now lose their jobs until they get a work permit to show another EU citizen cannot fulfill that post. Ryanair will not be able to fly from UK airports to Spain unless they transit through Ireland. Every Brit on a goverment pension will now have to pay tax on that pension regardless of how much tax they are paying on it in UK. Savings in a bank will no longer be guaranteed up to 100,000 euro. SEPA will be cancelled and high charges will be introduced to transfer money from UK to Spain (or vice versa) and no direct debits can be made between EU countries. Anyone accruing a EU pension will lose the part they have built up in a country outside the UK. Anyone from UK wishing to live in Spain will have to show private medical insurance and an income of around €35,000 a couple like other non-EU citizens. LHD vehicles will be banned from Spain (as was proposed some years ago but overturned by the EU). Capital Gains Tax on property will attract 24% with no allowances. Inheritance tax will be applied to all including spouses and retired people. All healthcare in any EU country will be charged. Food prices in UK will rise considerably as EU food subsidies will stop. Mobile phone charges will be re-introduced. Imports from UK to any EU country will attract a 5% duty. Any items received from UK will attract a customs duty plus VAT regardless if VAT has been paid in UK.
Just a few things you need to think about. ** EDITED - Against forum rules - Inciting**
Oh, and of course it's only the EU that spins things out as UK has a great record of speedy work. Now tell me how long did the Hillsborough report take before it was published and how long did the Chilcott Enquiry take before we got to know about it?
** EDITED - Against forum rules - Inciting**
This message was last edited by eos_moderators on 7/20/2016 5:10:00 PM.
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So, we just abrogate all the EU treaties?
The majority voted out, that means out of the EU. We can’t be out and in at the same time. So all EU treaties and agreements will become bonfire material. It’s start again time and that might be a good thing. You can’t leave the club but still want the bits you like and not the bits you don’t like. Make your mind up it’s one way or the other. It’s not like getting the sack at work but still turning up every day. Delusion.
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"That woman's tongue. If it was a bit longer she could shave with it."
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So, we just abrogate all the EU treaties? How about business passporting? Companies from UK can set up branches in the EU nations to continue trade. Abrogate the treaty and will they now have to close up shop or go through the rigmarole of becoming a German/Spanish/Italian (take you pick) country?
Someone from UK worked there for 15 years then got a job in Germany for 5 years then moved to Spain for 15 years. He now has 35 years accrued pension rights. Abrogate the treaty and they are down to whatever length of time they contributed in the country they settle in. Back to UK and only 15 years payments.Or will he keep the full 35 years.
The single sky agreement is a EU treaty. Look at the eurocontrol site and it tells you the legislation came about because the EU Commission agreed it and gave eurocontrol the task of applying it. It's why Ryanair (for example) could only fly routes either originating or terminating in Ireland. Easyjet could not fly Madrid to Rome without going thrugh Luton and so on before that came in which was only in the early 2000's so I can't see how you say were a part of it before joining the EU. Part of eurocontrol probalby, but not the Single European Sky agreement because there wasn't one. .I don't know which one you are referring to but it certainly isn't that. Yes, EHIC Is between EU governments. If we are not a member of the EU it may not apply which is something that has to be worked out. UK would require access to EU databases (and vice versa) to try and combat terrorism and border incursions. Int sharing is something that is going to increase in importance in the coming years. Something else that needs to be worked out.
There's a lot to be talked about. It doesn't have to take 2 years as that is the maximum time (which can be extended if all countries agree) and could be over in 6 months. I highly doubt it, though.
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We are not in the position of Canada. We start from a position of having free trade.
We can set up free trade agreements with other countries but we cannot implement them until we have left the EU. As you say we are short of people to do this as has been done by the EU. But I was concerned about the initial negociations
The list from the cabinet office looks impressive but much of it is covered by agreements outside the EU. UK law we can change at our leisure we do not have to unpick it straight away because we are leaving. I'm pretty sure however there will be pressure as soon as we leave to remove the damaging stuff.
213 = 218(3) of the Lisbon Treaty? We should just abrogate all the EU treaties.
Single Sky Agreement. This is controlled by Eurocontrol. The funding is separate from the EU and we were members long before we joined the EU.
We still have border controls
It will be up to the security agencies to continue co-operation as before. We will have no reason to be part of the EU agency but it is just another (complicating) agency that our police and security agencies will have to deal with at present. But if the EU does coalesce into a single state it could become the single focal point and therefore an advantage.
EHIC is an intergovernmental arrangement
Our fishermen are at present barred in much of our own waters. This is the item I mentioned. We need to compensate holders of licences if we re-take control of our waters.
Civil servants will always want to make things appear difficult. I suppose we will now see what metal David Davis is made of. Which is probably why Mrs May gave him the job.
Thinking about it, she is bomb proof, if it all goes to hell in a handcart she can say she wanted to stay, but if it is a roaring success she can bask in the glory.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 19/07/2016.
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Well the way that the Labour Party are performing, the Conservatives will be able to put all their efforts into Brexit, as Labour look likely to split and be unelectable for many years
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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tteedd I agree with you but no one will ever stop the blood sucking parasites jumping on the gravy train. They will have you believe there is no world outside the EU and that they are our saviours doing all of us a favour and we should be grateful.
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"That woman's tongue. If it was a bit longer she could shave with it."
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@tteedd
You don't think the 2 years negotiations following Article 50 will actually make agreements on things like trade, do you? It will merely set out the future relationship between the UK and the EU and what matters will be up for discussion. Article 50 is simply the means to inform the EU that the UK will be leaving and then other articles (notably 213) kick in.The Canadian talks have taken 7 years with 300 negotiators from the EU taking part and is still not signed. According to the Cabinet Office Library the items that will be discussed in the 2 years will include:
unspent EU funds due to UK regions and farmers; • cross-border security arrangements including access to EU databases; • co-operation on foreign policy, including sanctions; • transfer of regulatory responsibilities; • arrangements for contracts drawn up in accordance with EU law; • access to EU agencies that play a role in UK domestic law, such as the European Medicines Agency; • arrangements for the closure of EU agencies headquartered in the UK; • departure from the Single European Sky arrangement; • access for UK citizens to the European Health Insurance Card; • the rights of UK fishermen to fish in traditional non-UK waters, including those in the North Sea; • continued access to the EU’s single energy and aviation markets; Research Service, the status of the UK’s environmental commitments made as party to various UN environmental conventions and currently implemented through EU legislation.
There is also banking, finance passport agreements, pensions, residential rights of current EU citizens and many other items to be discussed.
These 2 years will simply lay out the procedures and what will be up for negotiation. Free trade, movement, healthcare and so on will be thrashed out after the 2 year period.
UK does not have enough trained negotiators in all this. For the last 40 odd years, the EU has carried out negotiations on behalf of the UK and that is where the expertise lies.
Hopefully lots of amicable agreements will be made and UK can settle down to making separate agreements with other countries (which they can do without waiting for the 2 years to be up) bu they won't be able to negotiate with EU countries until then.
This message was last edited by mariedav on 19/07/2016.
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Do you want the United Kingdom broken up, Yes or No.
No but I think it is inevitable because of Brexit.
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Hi
Any experts on the EU treaties out there.
I really cannot see why we need 300 civil servants and a whole army of experts to leave the EU.
Yes we need a couple of good international lawyers to make sure that any agreement is solid and reflects what we agree.
But I see no reason why the whole thing should be complicated.
Yes, our current relationship is complicated but we just need to void that and start again. Yes they have 27 countries to deal with but that is the EU's problem and in any case the EU has the power to negociate for the current 28 nations already.
What we want is free trade in goods and services and release from the last 43 years of deals, surely not that difficult.
I have come accross several web pages and articals that purport to say why it is difficult but all they do is bang on about the rights of citizens living in other countries (pretty much the same as that which concerns MP's) not that difficult to sort surely.
I can see there might be problems with fishing licences but nothing unsoluable. But no-one mentions that.
The press and TV seem to think it will be difficult but never say why.
So, do we have any experts here who can see what is so difficult?
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On an inspirational note here's a TV programme that demonstrates what is possible when you dare to dream, when you collaborate with the best and when at the heart you harness the potential of a nation of people (volunteers).
Enjoy ( it's available for a limited period).😀
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07l24qp/imagine-summer-2016-1-one-night-in-2012-an-imagine-special
Aren't there positive lessons to be learned from this?
If only EU bureaucrats and politicians would take note of the need to listen and recognise the wealth of experience within their member states, how to best gain the trust of their citizens and be far more inclusive in their decision making.
This message was last edited by ads on 18/07/2016.
This message was last edited by ads on 18/07/2016.
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Why do people keep saying 'second referendum' on Scottish independence? It would be the third.
After the first, when the Scots said No, Blair gave them devolved government.
After the second the Scots said no and Cameron gave the Scottish asssembly more powers.
This is a one way ratchet towards Scottish independence. Each time the vote was no we should have moved towards integration not devolution.
It is not surprising that many in Scotland voted SNP at the last general election because whatever they voted in the past resulted in a move toward independence.
I'm British I was born in England but I have English, Scottish and possibly Welsh ancestry.
In my golf club in Hertfordshire, last time I checked, 10% of the seniors were Scots. Movement from Scotland to around the capital of the UK has been going on for 300 years. These people did not think they were going abroad.
We all live on one island with a natural barrier to the rest of the world.
The indiginous population was all celtic but this was overlaid by scandanavian and saxon blood in varying amounts and there is no difference between the people of northern England and southern Scotland.
I do not want the UK broken up but nobody gives me a say.
This is all very reminiscent of the EU. They tell us what is good for us but are surprised when we vote for something else.
Time they did the democratic thing and gave us all a say.
Do you want the United Kingdom broken up, Yes or No.
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yesser
Looks like there will be another referendum in Scotland maybe even one as early as next year .staying in Europe is indeed beneficial to Scotland . Scotland won't need to have the ok from Westminster we can just go ahead with it.
Why will there be another referendum? Nicola saying it doesn't make it so. Unless she is going to declare UDI then she will need the OK from Westminster. It's the law.
Im all for Scotland being independent more for my disliking of that Westminster government .
What makes you think Scotland would meet the criterea for joining the EU? It would have to join the Euro and Schengen and meet loads of points. On the economic front alone it would fail. Oil is now less than half the price it was at the last referendum and the figures didn't add up even then. It would hardly be "independent" if it leaves UK but joins in with the EU, would it?
But it's a wait and see..
Have to say this instead of our friends from over the border thinking you pay for our university fees our free prescriptions why don't you stand up against that Westminster government an ask why you don't get it..
You are aware health is devolved throughout the constituent parts of the UK? If Scotland wants to give free prescriptions at the expense of health treatment it is up to them. England decided to retain prescription costs but increase the supply of life saving drugs. Not many people actually pay for prescriptions anyway but there are many cases of people moving down from Scotland (and Wales) to get health treatment available in England but not in those countries.
Any bright kid leaving school SHOULD have the opportunity to go to uni not because they can AFFORD it but indeed through hard work and merit at school .
"Kids" don't pay for uni. They are given a loan and only pay it back once they start earning £21,000 a year and even then it is quite low. Bursaries and grants are not repayable and there is nothing to stop anyone going to university as they don't pay for it up front.
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Scotland needs to have a good hard look in the mirror! Had they achieved independence in 2014 they would be bankrupt today - Scotish Daily Record
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