BREXIT

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31 Oct 2016 11:37 AM by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message

Add

Provocative divisive maybe maybe not

Whatever that are my views and shared by many maybe not by you or a few on here 

We can all critcise each other but nothing has been posted on this thread to change my views 

I experience a lot of these negative comments from many more than I hear positive 

 



_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”



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31 Oct 2016 11:22 AM by ads Star rating. 4124 posts Send private message

This is nothing to do with others owing the UK a living, or thinking we are "better", and to suggest such is to wrongly stereotype a nation which has taken pride from being inclusive and tolerant over the years.

Your comments are sadly very provocative and divisive Tadd, and only adds to the concerns of those who are genuinely concerned by the proliferation of extreme views  and behaviour that undermine cohesion and tolerance. So please Tadd can you bear this in mind when you make your postings?

What people are reacting to in the UK is a situation out of citizen's control, where the scale of migration into their country has caused a sequence of events that in many regions has impacted their everyday lives to such a degree that they understandably have called for a review and a means to regain control. It is a normal reaction to seeking solutions. 

Now some of those solutions require that we rightly look to within to see what our own Govt can do, and in this regard the suggestion has been that we alter our benefit system that developed over the years to assist those "in need" or for whatever reason needed transitional assistance until they could find employment.

If this system has become abused in some way then of course it is for the Govt to take adequate measures to better regulate the system, but this is where the freedom of movement has impacted, because the inflows have significantly added to the pressures.

Plus bear in mind this also came at a moment in time when the Govt were responding to the financial crisis which had a tremendous impact on our debt (it's far more complex than that, to be honest) and in that process the Govt were already implementing measures to tighten up the welfare system and incentivise those unemployed back into work, or retrain, become better educated, etc.

And thankfully to a degree this was definitely beginning to improve ( hence the lowering of the unemployment rates)... but then the migration impact started to proliferate, and the massive growth of part time work and zero hours contracts started to negatively impact the economy ( again highly complex, but suffice to say that native part time workers who were relying on transitional in work benefits, housing benefit etc to assist them back to work and gain a better life for themselves, was not proving cost effective to the economy. But presumably this was intended as a longer term plan to get the native unemployed back into work. )

All well and good, but the long term plan suddenly became further compromised by the proliferation of low skilled migrants taking zero hours contracts, part time jobs, which placed even more pressure on housing, infrastructure. education, already overstretched due to Govt efforts to deal with the growing debt caused by the financial crisis..... and so began the spiral of events.

Part time work has increased to such an extent,  27% of workers, that economists have now identified they are proving of negative fiscal value to the economy given the current in- work benefits ( see http://moneyweek.com/does-immigration-make-britain-richer-or-poorer/... so once again the Govt are having to review their strategy. This website article is actually an eye opener to the complexities involved and the link to Govt debt, which to many are hidden from view. Important nevertheless to understand that bold generalisations are often wrong.

What people were therefore calling for in this interim period were for the EU to demonstrate flexibility to allow TRANSITIONAL controls on migration flows into the UK to assist in this regard until such time as those greater regulations and control of benefits required to better control zero hours contracts and part time work become effective.

Unfortunately the EU have refused to take account of this and the rest is history. 

What is required is understanding on both sides of the equation so that we can all find adequate solutions but it requires patience, a willingness to work together, to comprehend the complexities and not proliferate divisiveness in the interim.





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31 Oct 2016 10:58 AM by rob_j1 Star rating. 99 posts Send private message

baz

In no way did I become confused over immigration into the UK when I voted out, which I did so for reasons other then that, the EU is a mess and it will always be a mess while it keeps on thinking it's the best thing since sliced bread, isn't it true that other countries are watching the UK, why, if it's such a good thing to be in.

How can any knowledgable (Supposed to be anyway)  person keep on telling one and all that the brexit is bringing the country down when it's only been this way for less then 6 months, you cant even say a business is working and viable in much under 4/5 years, but you know whats going to happen in less then 6 months? 

I and the millions of others had no making of the ghastly position the UK is supposed to be in, joining this mess did that to the UK all on its own.

I do know one thing for sure though, I am not going to keep on running down the country I was born in, I am going to try to do my best to see it prosper, if in anyway I can.

 

1. The EU believes in freedom. The UK is trying to be greedy. 5th biggest economy, 4.9% unemployment, record numbers IN employment, and the UK wants more still. Who really thinks they're the best thing since sliced bread?

2. The state of the pound tells you everything you need to know.

3. The UK has enjoyed generous growth over the past 40 years, with national wealth increasing significantly. Where on earth do you people get the idea that we had it bad? When the pound was at its peak, we enjoyed a tremendous standard of living, because we could buy our imports for peanuts. What was so bad about that? Far better for our currency to fall on its ass and cost us all more for the large number of imports we have, eh? Thats not even short term thinking, thats just plain stupidity.

 

Hugh

Tadd

certainly not an expert but most of low IQ can discover that WTO rules do not permit more than 10% tariffs unles v exceptional circumstances such as dumping and average WTO tariff is under 5%.

Do you seriously think Audi and Merc will be happy with similar tariffs the other way round?

No no idea if £ will continue to weaken but you Remoaners complain because it's weak and now you are apparently complaining that it may recover and be bad for exports.

Which do you want?

Or is just that whatever happens 17 mill have made a bad decision.

Nissan have been guaranteed nothing as the government have no idea what deal the EU and its business leaders will agree to yet

. They have accepted that the UK govt will do all in its power to strike a sensible, to all,  trade deal so the billions of imports into the UK are also not affected and if the prices go up because of a weaker sterling then perhaps we can look elsewhere to buy our goods from, the world is not flat and business does not stop after the EU boundaries.

Open your minds to globalisation it's been around for a while now.

1. Tariff discussion has a long way to go. Not you, nor I, nor even Mrs May, nor even the EU know where we will land.

2. I dont know where you get the idea that we want a weak currency. Our standard o fliving is linked to our currency. As a nation, we have an enormous appetite for imports, and due to our previously high currency, much secondary industry was lost (we were just too expensive), so we just dont make as much as we used to. Once the factories close and those goods start coming in from overseas, setting up new factories become unviable. Even maintaining what we have is tricky, hence the recent discussions with Nissan. I'd love to have been a fly on the wall for those discussions, and all I can say is this; IF, and I stress that word IF, a special deal was done for Nissan, how many other companies will then start seeking special deals as well? Will the taxpayer have to subsidise them all? Where will it end? How much will it cost in total?

3. Globalisation. Asking us to open our minds? Come on Hugh. We've had this discussion already. Go to your local supermarket, and just have a look at how many bottles of wine there are from places like South Africa. We ALREADY buy from all corners of the globe. Dont make out like we only buy from the EU and therefore if we dont like the prices we should buy from cheaper countries. Thats being highly disingenuous, and frankly beneath you and everyone else on this forum.





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31 Oct 2016 9:37 AM by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message

I think it highly likely the directors of Nissan understood one thing and the UK Trade Secretary meant something entirely different and entirely deniable in the future. It’s what politician do.

Not even the EU Commission President has the smallest clue how the negotiations with the UK will pan out over the coming two years. Nissan must be aware of that.

However here is a small clue. The rest of the EU had a trade surplus with the UK of £59 billion in 2014. The UK had a trade deficit with 20 of the other 27 EU member states in 2014 and a deficit of £27 billion with Germany alone. These commercial considerations might lead to pressure for a UK-EU free trade agreement from within the EU. The UK is unlikely to object. That leaves free movement which is and will always be the elephant in the room.



_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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31 Oct 2016 8:24 AM by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message

Hugh but how do YOU know 01% coudl be 6, 7 8 or 9%

Nobody willbe happy with tariffs but..............

I, like most, have no ide what the £ wil do up or down

and just short of 17 million made a good decisiosn - but you can't please all the people all the time

How do YOU know nissan have been offered nothing ?

Trusting the govt - really?????

Globalisation - It is simply not good enough and alog way from being fair other thanto the few!! Far too many people suffer due to greed, selfishnes, extremism, war etc etc for teh benefit of the few. would love to see it bigger and have greater integration across the globe for all human beings this would help many many millions more than any devolution plans.

All guesswork and no different to anyone else on here.

Too many of the outers can't think outside the little island of ~65million and think they own the world and the world owes them a favour and of course the UK can never be wrong

Audi & merc (like many others sellimng to teh UK will simply add the costs of import duty onto the buyers  - not difficult and the UK is NOT their main or only market

 

 


This message was last edited by Tadd1966 on 31/10/2016.

_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”



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31 Oct 2016 1:32 AM by hugh_man Star rating in Kent/Roda . 1593 posts Send private message

hugh_man´s avatar

Tadd

certainly not an expert but most of low IQ can discover that WTO rules do not permit more than 10% tariffs unles v exceptional circumstances such as dumping and average WTO tariff is under 5%.

Do you seriously think Audi and Merc will be happy with similar tariffs the other way round?

No no idea if £ will continue to weaken but you Remoaners complain because it's weak and now you are apparently complaining that it may recover and be bad for exports.

Which do you want?

Or is just that whatever happens 17 mill have made a bad decision.

Nissan have been guaranteed nothing as the government have no idea what deal the EU and its business leaders will agree to yet

. They have accepted that the UK govt will do all in its power to strike a sensible, to all,  trade deal so the billions of imports into the UK are also not affected and if the prices go up because of a weaker sterling then perhaps we can look elsewhere to buy our goods from, the world is not flat and business does not stop after the EU boundaries.

Open your minds to globalisation it's been around for a while now.





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30 Oct 2016 9:35 PM by baz1946 Star rating. 2327 posts Send private message

I do not write about immigration from none EU nations. That is a separate issue entirely and your post indicates you and a few million others confused the issues in the referendum and put Britain in the ghastly position it now finds itself in. 

Immigration to Britain from none EU countries will continue after Brexit even a hard Brexit. Leaving the EU will not change anything.

In no way did I become confused over immigration into the UK when I voted out, which I did so for reasons other then that, the EU is a mess and it will always be a mess while it keeps on thinking it's the best thing since sliced bread, isn't it true that other countries are watching the UK, why, if it's such a good thing to be in.

How can any knowledgable (Supposed to be anyway)  person keep on telling one and all that the brexit is bringing the country down when it's only been this way for less then 6 months, you cant even say a business is working and viable in much under 4/5 years, but you know whats going to happen in less then 6 months? 

I and the millions of others had no making of the ghastly position the UK is supposed to be in, joining this mess did that to the UK all on its own.

I do know one thing for sure though, I am not going to keep on running down the country I was born in, I am going to try to do my best to see it prosper, if in anyway I can.

 





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30 Oct 2016 7:01 PM by hughjardon Star rating in Jaywick Sands. 418 posts Send private message

hughjardon´s avatar

hughjardon´s avatar

 

 

 

Sorry nice try NORTHEN IRELAND but youre coming OUT too

TONY BLAIR sticking his big NOSE I SEE citing a Cival War in the UK but it does BEG the question what would be the result of ANOTHER referendum 

WHAT do you think should we have ANOTHER REFERENDUM 

I would still vote to leave but has ANYONE on the FORUM changed SIDES I wonder

 

SO like this post if you were an OUTIE but now have changed your mind

Love Hugh xx

 

So no one has changed there mind and a new referendum would give the same result most likely

Says it all really 


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30 Oct 2016 6:44 PM by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message

We are all experts or is it spartacus 



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30 Oct 2016 5:36 PM by tteedd Star rating in Hertfordshire & Punt.... 990 posts Send private message

expert   -  

ex = has been 

spurt = drip under pressure





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30 Oct 2016 5:27 PM by Destry Star rating in MYOB . 289 posts Send private message

I would love to be an expert on something, perhaps one of you guys would tell me what it is like. wink



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30 Oct 2016 5:25 PM by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message

Tteedd I dont disagree but time wil tell as with most things

When the head of a major company saks for reassurance from the govt to help their long investment and strategy then very quickly meets with the PM somethung was agreed all I think what we need to know is what 

The longtrem invetsment in the next 2 models is only 3 maybe 5 yrs as they will then be looking for new models and maybe a different outcome for the NE plant when the time comes

We certainly have a verty distorted picture of the short term future - everyone guessing

 



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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”



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30 Oct 2016 5:15 PM by tteedd Star rating in Hertfordshire & Punt.... 990 posts Send private message

A blind horse can of course see nothing. But it seems a blind human can convince himself he has seen anything especially when it fits his distorted world picture.

Nissan, unlike the government will no doubt have been assessing it's forward investment strategy for a long time before the referendum and will have adjusted it in many ways since. Eventually it came to a conclusion which was a massive vote of confidence for the UK and Nissan's Sunderland work force.

We should al celebrate the descision. But no, we are surrounded by a load if gradgrind remoaners.





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30 Oct 2016 5:12 PM by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message

Destry nobody knows what is going on and that is the problem with the enitre Brexit topic.Also how do you know this

For a start neither would tell the whole truth,  

are you one of these expertswink

We can discuss and debate until the cows come home

secrecy and rumours create suspicion and generate mistrust - what a recipe for disaster and on such an important issue 

Hugh_man - good guess on 10% tarfiff how do you know for sure, also how confident are you that the £ will contineu to fall or wil it make a come back (it has before) -  are you also one of these expertswink

 

 



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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”



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30 Oct 2016 5:01 PM by hugh_man Star rating in Kent/Roda . 1593 posts Send private message

hugh_man´s avatar

Maximum tariff on UK cars into EU = 10% unlikely to be that high given imports into UK

Sterlings latest fall against Euro = 15% Nissan appear to be quids in with or without any deals.

Yes Destry it is amazing how all these experts know what is going on, shame more werent asking questions prior to the referendum when the call was "Why will no one tell me how i should vote?"





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30 Oct 2016 4:49 PM by Destry Star rating in MYOB . 289 posts Send private message

I find it mildly amusing that there are forum members who think that they would understand the inner workings of any deal struck between HMG and Nissan. For a start neither would tell the whole truth, and how would anyone know what the truth was anyway?



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IF YOU WISH TO QUOTE ANY OF MY POSTS PLEASE DO SO IN THEIR ENTIRETY AND NOT JUST A FEW SELECTED WORDS TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT. THANK YOU.



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30 Oct 2016 4:24 PM by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message

baz:

I do not write about immigration from none EU nations. That is a separate issue entirely and your post indicates you and a few million others confused the issues in the referendum and put Britain in the ghastly position it now finds itself in. 

Immigration to Britain from none EU countries will continue after Brexit even a hard Brexit. Leaving the EU will not change anything.

teedd:

Even a blind horse can see Nissan did not commit to major investment in the UK post Brexit without carrots being offered. Of course it depends on what those carrots are and unless the parties involved come clean we will not know for some time.

I doubt simply explaining to Nissan that the UK government intends seeking tariff free access to the EU for the motor industry was sufficient. That may well be on May's wish list but would a multi national industry be convinced by that? 

 


 


This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 30/10/2016.

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30 Oct 2016 4:22 PM by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message

Tteedd 

Of course you are right speculation based on Nissan saying they need reassurance from uk on trade deals etc before they committed to building nee models in Sunderland

So they were thinking about it then had a meeting with the PM and decided to stay in uk so what made them decide something surely so not simply speculation 



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30 Oct 2016 4:16 PM by tteedd Star rating in Hertfordshire & Punt.... 990 posts Send private message

"Nissan must gave gotten something and we will find out eventually "

That is just idle speculation.

Seems the remoaners want the UK to fail so badly that they will start any sort of rumour.

Until there is any evidence to to contrary why not take the government statement at face value?

I could say 'the minister for industry has a nice car he must be fiddling his allowances', a total fabrication but more basis in fact than the idle speculation.

I for one have never doubted that the government would do it's best to secure impost free trading for all industry let alone the car industry. Negotiations have yet to start and the government has a good hand.

 


This message was last edited by tteedd on 30/10/2016.



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30 Oct 2016 2:54 PM by baz1946 Star rating. 2327 posts Send private message

A brief history of free movement of peoples in Europe from Migration Information. I'm posting it here because there are some misunderstanding that Brexit will change free movement. It is highly probable that it will not given the historical process that brought it about.

Mickyfinn, sorry but you haven't a clue about what you keep going on about over free movement, you ignore the facts presented to you, you obversely haven't watched the news or read any papers.

No one cares about the free movement of genuine people from within the EU, like you know the countries in the EU, just because all these people from all over the world shacked up in France doesn't make them from Europe, or Europeans, these are the one's that are ruining every country they decide to stay in, and yes you wont believe it but the reason they want to get to the UK is because the UK will give them so much.

I work with many of these for a day a week, none are genuinely from the EU,  German / French / Spanish and so on, I have just worked / helped out for two weeks in a top London College you could count the white English on one hand, this place has thousands of students for various courses, next to none with go any further to get any kind of work, as many I spoke with only want the passport to live and stay in the UK.

Bleat on all you want about how good free movement is but first understand what it is.

 





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