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Yes, I do remember when this was brought up about six or seven years ago. I was still working as a practice manager and we were thinking of moving over permanently. I spoke to the International Pension Centre who confirmed the UK would pay for my wife's healthcare as she was a pensioner (just coming up to 60) and also mine as a beneficiary (to tie in with the rules in Spain that only one member of the household needs to be entitled to give cover to all).However, although they confirmed the UK pays an annual fee the couldn't give me a figure. Yes, someone else got the amount and posted it on here.
This was also at a time you could transfer cover over for up to two and a half years based on your last two years NI payments regardless of age, something the UK government stopped a couple of years ago.
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Well, britin, we appear to be at odds on this. However, the NHS says that, if you live in another EU country as a pensioner (or on certain benefits) then you can get healthcare free paid for by the UK government.
That last bit is important and is explained in this NHS leaflet:
If you are living in an EEA country or Switzerland and you receive a UK State Pension or long-term Incapacity Benefit, you may be entitled to state healthcare paid for by the UK. You'll need to apply for a certificate of entitlement also known as an S1 form. If you are living in Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway or Switzerland then the form is called E121.
You can apply for your form via the International Pension Centre on 0191 218 7777. Once issued, register the S1/E121 form with the relevant authority abroad. Often you need to do this before you can register with a GP surgery or obtain a medical card.
Once you have registered your S1/E121 in the country you are moving to, you will be entitled to apply for and use a UK-issued EHIC to access state-funded necessary medical treatment when you visit other EEA countries.
 If you get a UK benefit, such as short-term Incapacity Benefit or Maternity Allowance, your healthcare cover is subject to different rules. The period of your cover and application criteria may differ depending on your particular circumstances. For more information, contact the International Pension Centre (IPC) or the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP).
Now, in your case, of course they wouldn't have known about your operation or any other procedure. The payment is made to cover all treatment, not individual ones. A bit like a national healthcare insurance scheme.
The 10% co-payment rule only covered those of pensionable age earning under €18,000 a year up to a maximum of €8 a month. Earning over that and the cap was €18 a month. Yes, this has now been removed.
However, the figures and who pays for it are not really the important thing. It's if we will retain it in the event of UK leaving the EU.
Edited to add.
Oh, and I know you haven't been on the site very long but we have discussed this payment in the past. One of the posters (I think johnzx but can't find the thread now) showed proof and a confirmation from the overseas health team in Newcastle that they don't pay for any individual course of treatment or procedure but do pay for each person with an S1 form. I believe they quoted €3500 per entitled person which was around £3,000 a year at the exchange rates then. Also bobaol was a practice manager working in UK who also confirmed the payment.
This message was last edited by mariedav on 06/04/2016.
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to Mariedav
If you check into how, and from which source, the Spanish Health Service is financed, you will see that there is no separate payment made by any income tax paying resident of Spain (nationals or non-Spanish EU officially permanent residents), employed or retired - it is funded purely by the income from the Spanish tax system!! Further, the service is run by a monitored private organisation that is allowed to make a profit, not only by being efficient, but effective also. Note: very recently, any payment, made by patients/clients, towards the supply of medicines was removed - previously, clients had to pay 10% of the purchase price.
With regard to your statement that the UK pays Spain 3,000 pounds per UK pensioner (permanently resident in Spain) per year is absolutely not true! In 2007, this mis-information was put to me, personally, after a very successful operation, in Spain, to remove a cancer of the Lymph glands under my chin. I subsequently contacted the UK NHS and asked had they paid for the operation. Not only were they aware that the operation had taken place, but they also, perfunctorily, stated that ´Of course they had not paid for the operation and that it was Spain´s responsibility to do so´!! I was then 77 years old and certainly a pensioner. Further, I had not resided in the UK since 1977!
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Sorry Ads, I think you're getting a bit mixed up. The S1 form is only for those over retirement age in their home country, those registered as disabled and those under the age of 18 who are permanent residents in Spain.
If you have worked in Spain and have been paying social security payments then the S1 is not valid as you will be liable to free care on the Spanish NHS, not paid for by the UK one.
AFAIK, an EU country completes the S1 (done in UK by the people at Newcastle which confirms your entitelment) for those moving to another EU country. If they are retired or disabled then the payment for their healthcare is done annually by the home country.
I should imagine these claims are paid after checking with the Overseas Health Team at Newcastle. If you are back on the NHS registered system then it wouldn't be paid (I assume, never having worked there). Should be quite easy to crosscheck nowadays. Our healthcards, which we received when submitting the S1 form to the Spanish admin workers, have a Social Security number written on the back. This is also linked to the tax office, health centres and pharmacies so they can check what level, if any, of prescription charges you should pay.
The Spanish system depends on paying into it and this applies to Spanish people as well.
UK system is based on residency. Therefore, simply turning up and giving a UK address will class you as resident and you automatically receive healthcare regardless of your age. Pensioners from other EU countries should also use the S1 but don't as no-one tells them they have to and they are registered at a surgery simply by giving an address.
Have a read of the EU rules on residency
You will see that, whilst we have to comply with this when moving to Spain (or any other EU country) those moving to UK don't. They simply become residents just by living there and don't have to prove access to healthcare, ability to support themselves or even register on a list of EU foreigners residing in UK. It's why the UK government could not give an answer when recently asked how many EU citizens live in UK.
So, yes, UK does not have effective systems in place. Even after spending wasting £12 billion on a health computer system to tie them altogether which didn't work. We often get people on here and other sites talking about Spain being a 3rd world country. Amazing that they can keep a register of foreign citizens, have a NHS computer system linked so any GP or hospital can check your records and even so a pharmacy can see how much you should pay for prescriptions.
Something wrong somewhere.
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Thanks Mariedav.
Can you explain the point at which an EU non Spanish resident (not working and not paying into the social security system) fills in the S1 form, and is this annual amount (£3000) claimed for each year thereafter by the Spanish authorities for that resident to retain health care cover? Is it at the point of residency application or stopping/retiring from work in Spain etc? How are you expected to identify thereafter that you have completed this form to continue qualifying? Are there annual checks in place to ensure claims cannot be made by the Spanish authorities if there has been any change in residency/working circumstance (i.e. whose obligation is it to advise of change in circumstance)? Obviously this also applies in a reciprocal way but I'm trying to see how the existing system works?
Likewise in the UK is the suggestion that there is a major gap in the NHS system to check non UK EU nationals to see if either S1 residency rules apply (from which the UK Govt can reclaim from the relevant country), or you have a valid NI number to demonstrate you are working and paying into the s/s system, or you have EHIC identification?
Is the suggestion that there is no effective standardised sytem in place in the UK?
This message was last edited by ads on 06/04/2016.
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Just a couple of points on healthcare:
@Britin Healthcare. UK pensioners, as with all pensioners of all other EU member countries,who are officially resident in Spain, receive healthcare that is paid for out of the income taxe they pay to Spain - the UK does not pay for this form of healthcare. The UK, as with all other EU member countries, re-imburses Spain and all other EU member countries, when non-resident visiting persons use healthcare services by presenting their EHIC cards!!
I think you'll find it's only those who work in Spain and pay into the social security system, not tax, that has healthcare paid by Spain. Pensioners (and others) who are resident do have their healthcare paid for by the UK government to the tune of about £3000 a year. That's what the S1 form is for. Spain gets the money each year from UK under this agreement. UK should also get this money from Spain to pay for their pensioners living in UK
. @mikeandhelen The EHIC card is not used in the UK as Doctors refuse to co-operate with checking entitlement to UK Healthcare but the NHS in trying to catch out expats living abroad.
That really is wrong. Do you think the doctors in Spain check your entitlement? No, they don't. They have admin staff who do that for them. And the EHIC system is used in UK (so that's wrong as well). It's laid down in NHS guidelines that visitors to UK from EU countries need an EHIC. It's just that UK seems to think they can afford to treat everyone. Now, just what has that got to do with leaving the EU? EU lays down the rules on residency, healthcare, working, benefits and so on (look it up on your beloved Google) and then tell me why UK seems to be the only country that ignores these rules? Again, blaming the EU for UK failings.
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NHS hospital investor bought a JUMBO JET after using Panama tax haven to invest his 'money made off a taxpayer-funded deal'
Maybe it was an "Air-fix" plastic model one...But somehow I think not.
A couple of years ago I did a deal with a very large local councillor who was in charge of house building, next I get a visit from a high ranking cop in Scotland Yard, they didn't know about this particular bank account (Seems one of many others) this guy had, and the amounts of the deal, he went to jail, think for six years.
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All interesting observations, thanks.
What I fail to comprehend is if everyone in the remain camp knows of the failings, why aren't you all using this opportunity to highlight these failings and demand to know from your EU Parliamentarians and Commission how these problems and necessary reforms ( and greater accountability) can be resolved in the longer term. What is their strategy? Who are their alliances with and do they have any realistic plans to get the voice of the people better represented, and if so how? Make them earn their voices to represent you all, because as things stand your strength of feeling needs to followed through with a far more proactive approach. You should all be stressing your concerns and demanding to know the "longer term" strategy, then report back. To retain the status quo is not an option. There's never a been a better time than now.
Www.writetothem.com
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And, of course, there is no corruption in the UK with mayors or councillors being sent to prison, oh dear me no,
The worst local government corruption case since the Poulson scandal of the 1970s ended yesterday with hefty jail terms for a senior Labour councillor and the property developer who bribed him.The four-year sentence for Peter Birks, former chairman of planning in Doncaster finished the virtual elimination of the old, miner-dominated Labour party in the South Yorkshire town, which has already seen two former council leaders and two former mayors among 21 councillors convicted of fraud. The Guardian
Of course, there was the Poulson scandal, the T Dan Smith scandal (Google them) just to show it's not a modern problem. But other like those above are only not seen by those who don't want to see.
A FORMER councillor has been told to expect a jail sentence after he was found guilty of corruption.
Jezz Baker was convicted of one count of corruption under the Public Bodies Corruption Act 1889, and found not guilty of another at Winchester Crown Court yesterday, following jury deliberation lasting just over seven hours. Baker had accepted a 500 bribe in return for ensuring a planning application would go through. The News
A former Redbridge councillor has been jailed after he was caught red-handed demanding £10,000 to influence planning decisions Guardian again, last year.
Oh, I won't go on. Those are just a very small sample after Googling and come up on the very first page.
And thank for confirming the European Commission started the investigation into corruption. So, unlike was suggested in the first post, it is not corruption in the EU organisation but the EU organisation which is trying to do something about it.
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• The EU budget is always balanced, so there is no debt or deficit.
• The independent European Court of Auditors signed off the European Commission accounts every year for the entire 2007-2013 accounting period.
• The Auditors reported that the European Commission’s accounts were legal, regular and reliable (i.e. accurate).
• For 2013, EU Budgetary spending totalled €148.5 billion representing about1% of the 28 EU members GDP. (By contrast, the budgets of EU countries represent 49% of GDP on average.)
• The Auditors found that EU revenue was free of ‘material error’.
• The Auditors criticised the error rate of 4.7% of the 2013 Commission’s expenditure. But this ‘error rate’ is specifically not fraud. It relates to expenditure not strictly applied according to EU regulations. Most errors took place at national level by EU member states rather than in Brussels. The goal of the EU is to have an error rate of no more than 2%.
• The EU states that it “claws back” undue payments from the projects or countries at fault. This can bring the average error rate to below 2%.
• Over 95% of all EU expenditure is in line with the rules.
• 94% of the EU budget is actually spent in EU countries on policies and programmes that benefit citizens directly.
By comparison, fraud and error costs the UK Government more than £30bn every year. Fraud alone amounts to £20bn. Nearly £10bn goes missing as a result of administrative errors. Fraud and error losses in the UK are equivalent to more than five per cent of government receipts. This is worse than the EU accounts.
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Another quiet day in the UK today which means that it is unlikely we are going to see the pound return to form and gain across the board. The pound remains volatile with talks of the referendum and continues to have an impact on the markets. It looks as if it will remain this way all the way up to the decision for the referendum due to the uncertainty that has been caused on several occasions. Christine Lagarde (International Monetary Fund Managing Director) said that there are going to be risks to the financial sector in the city of London if a vote to leave the EU is seen.
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to ads
I forgot to mention that the onus is on the individual EU countries to claim and chase payments due for treatments given on the basis of the EHIC card - it is a known fact that the UK hardly ever bothers to claim and chase!! Do not blame the system, but look to the reasons ´why´!!
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Great piece in today Guardian by Yanis Varoufakis. Please read.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/05/yanis-varoufakis-why-we-must-save-the-eu
Here is a flavour of a great piece.
if Britain and Greece were not already in the EU, they should most certainly stay out. But, once inside, it is crucial to consider the consequences of a decision to leave. Whether we like it or not, the European Union is our environment – and it has become a terribly unstable environment, which will disintegrate even if a small, depressed country like Greece leaves, let alone a major economy like Britain. Should the Greeks or the Brits care about the disintegration of an infuriating EU? Yes, of course we should care. And we should care very much because the disintegration of this frustrating alliance will create a vortex that will consume us all – a postmodern replay of the 1930s.
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 06/04/2016.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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To ads
It is nothing to do with being barred - it is part of the structure of being ´in´ the EU. Britain ´not in the EU´ precludes it from the benefits of being in the EU!! Retaliatory measures, by a UK not in the EU, would not arise as any EU visitor presenting their EHIC card would be refused treatment as the card would have no meaning as the UK would not be in the EU system!!
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With regard to healthcare the same Telegraph article identified the following:-
Could expats really be barred from EU healthcare and benefits?
It's possible, but unlikely - not least given that it would open the door to
retaliatory measures from the UK which hosts its own share of expats from
European nations: there are as many as 3 million EU nationals living in Britain.
British expats can also claim to pay their own way in Europe, as the UK paid
£674 million in 2014-2015 to other European countries for the treatment of UK
nationals. However, the UK received just £49 million from other European nations
in the same year to treat those from other countries residing in the UK.
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To MikeandHelen and a warning to all future victims
You promote yourself/selves as something very special, but your knowledge of facts is not special - maybe specially lacking.
The UK State Pension. UK pensioners, as with all other pensioners from all other EU member countries, who are officially resident in Spain, pay income tax to Spain. They all do so with the assurance that they will not be double-taxed because of the legislation applying to all persons of all countries in the EU!! It must be assumed that if the UK left the EU, then all UK pensioners resident in Spain, would no longer be protected by the double taxation ruling!!
Healthcare. UK pensioners, as with all pensioners of all other EU member countries,who are officially resident in Spain, receive healthcare that is paid for out of the income taxe they pay to Spain - the UK does not pay for this form of healthcare. The UK, as with all other EU member countries, re-imburses Spain and all other EU member countries, when non-resident visiting persons use healthcare services by presenting their EHIC cards!!
Whether, or not, the EU can be made perfect is one thing - what is for certain, is that if the UK leaves the EU then certain people living officially in Spain, or any other EU member country will, for sure, face a very insecure future - and, further, the EHIC card will no longer be available for use by UK non-resident visitors!!
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I dont know if this helps, but here's some info from a Telegraph article 2nd
March 2016:-
Expats would also enjoy significant legal protections that would apply after
Brexit. Many lawyers argue that British expats living elsewhere in the EU at the
time of Brexit would have individual "acquired rights" under international law.
This is based on the Vienna Convention of 1969, which says that the termination
of a treaty "does not affect any right, obligation or legal situation of the
parties created through the execution of the treaty prior to its termination.”
The House of Commons Library says that "withdrawing from a treaty releases the
parties from any future obligations to each other, but does not affect any
rights or obligations acquired under it before withdrawal."
In other words, Brits who have already exercised their right to live in EU
states would keep that right after Brexit.
One important point though: this only applies to people who have started expat
life in the EU before Brexit.
After Britain had left, Brits’ ability to live and work in EU nations would
depend on new agreements the UK negotiated with those nations.
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A majority of 18-34 year olds would support EU membership in June. Those aged between 18 and 34— staying within the EU, at 53%, compared with just 29% opting to leave the EU.
And going on from that it's reckoned the over 60's will vote overwhelmingly to leave!
Problem is that the percentage turnout for voters under 30 will likely be very low whereas the reverse is true for older voters!
I do hope that the 60 somethings don't leave a poisoned chalice that they will know little about in 20 years!!
_______________________
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Also
Your pension. The decision to pay this to residents in other countries is that of the UK government and has nothing to do with EU membership
Everything that I've read says that this isn't true (if you can show me something to the contrary I'd be happy to read it). My understanding is that when you retire and claim your pension, each country you have worked in in the EU is forced to give you a pro-rata pension based on how many years you worked and contributed in that country. The pension paid must be at the same level (before pro-rating) as they would pay someone working all their life and retiring in that country. Without the EU, pensions can be frozen, and can essentially become worthless by the time you reach retirement age (as currently happens with UK citizens who emigrate to Australian).
There's some information on it here:
http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/retire-abroad/state-pensions-abroad/index_en.htm
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The fact that so many Spanish politicians are in jail is actually a credit to Spain, in the sense that they are actually punishing the corrupt. Also, if you look at how much the tax agencies here are crawling all over pretty much anyone they can find who have avoided paying taxes (including famous footballers, and even the royal family).
What tends to happen in the UK is much more subtle. Funds are filtered away into "legitimate businesses" (usually owned by politicians and their acquaintances). Crucial state services are privatized and sold off (to the same people). And for the more adventurous/greedy (and its beginning to appear that our own Prime Minister's family may fall into this category), funds are moved into shell companies in various tax havens across the world (of which a significant number are British dependencies).
When you take away all the fluff, there are two main differences between the UK and Spain in this respect. Firstly, for the most part in the UK it is "legal" (if you have political/legal leverage to pull the sufficient strings that is) to obtain and keep this "immorally" obtained money, whereas in Spain (at least nowadays) it certainly is not. Secondly, Britain has much more wealth to plunder than Spain ever did, so the effects aren't felt quite as strongly (at least not yet).
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