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OK baz I'll conceed the loans were paid but not the fact the UK was bankrupted by wars. However it's only relevant to illustrate how the UK has emerged from economic post war depression since joining the EU.
Even you have to admit Britain has enjoyed consistant growth (the last recession aside) since becoming a member of the European Community. I agree it's difficult to prove if it would have happened anyway if they had not joined. However if the UK leaves and the economy declines as I expect then we can and will.
The current political supporters of Brexit will then pay a heavy price.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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The Second World War bankrupted Britain and the US saved the nation with huge loans which are still being repaid. The UK has only just repaid its loans from the first war.
With the utmost respect Micky but if these are your facts then can I suggest that you have a check up on them, I think you will find that all of WW11 loans were fully paid up about a year or so ago, and WW1 loans on or about the 31st December 2015, (Not my facts) the US only lent us money to buy arms and equipment with, it wasn't because we going bankrupt in the true sense of the word.
I accept a tiny minority may see a chance to live from the state, or live from crime but leaving the EU will not change that one nat’s breath. Every nation on earth has that problem.
I take it that you still live in the UK then, if so then you have seen the destruction that mass immigration has done to the UK, and will do to every country that allows it to happen en mass, we are not talking about a "Tiny Minority" here either.
Leaving the EU will not change to much at all, though it might just re-shape many things
The UK economy has grown immeasurably since joining the EU. These are facts from which everyone has benefited. Brexit will turn back the clock to the sixties of that I am entirely certain.
55 years ago things were very very different in the UK, now times have moved on, so has technology, that will never change, as we can now never say what it would have been like without the EU, had we not joined it, not one person can say what it would be like if we left it.
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All the evidence shows that immigrants do not come to the UK to live off the state. There are many categories of immigrant. Some are fleeing war and persecution so require state aid after claiming asylum to get them on their feet. Some seek employment from the EU because their skills are better rewarded in the UK. Some just want to have a chance at a decent life and the UK to some offers that chance because employment is less restrictive then some EU states.
I accept a tiny minority may see a chance to live from the state, or live from crime but leaving the EU will not change that one nat’s breath. Every nation on earth has that problem.
baz wrote:
The wealth the UK has made has come from the blood, sweat and tears that the good honest folk have worked for over the pre-EU years.
Before the UK entered the EU its economy was a basket case. The IMF had to bail it out and unemployment and labour unrest was at its highest post war. Sterling was at parity with the US dollar there were restrictions on the money supply. Investment was at an all-time low.
The Second World War bankrupted Britain and the US saved the nation with huge loans which are still being repaid. The UK has only just repaid its loans from the first war.
The UK economy has grown immeasurably since joining the EU. These are facts from which everyone has benefited. Brexit will turn back the clock to the sixties of that I am entirely certain
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Very true but I was referring to the good skills the few have brought over against the millions that have come to the UK knowing full well they will get looked after.
The NHS is a very good example, everyone has know for years back that many of the staff were from Ireland, and it was often mentioned that if they went home the NHS would collapse, now for sure many other nationalities, dubious medical skills or not, when the Jamaicans first came over most worked on the railways, doing as you mentioned what our home grown wasters wouldn't do, the Pakistanis ran corner shops, when folk moaned to me about them opening all hours corner shops I always said "Well you do the same, they did it with nothing".
Every job of work that someone does as far as I am concerned is a skill of its own kind, but if you look at the figures for the immigrants that move to anywhere in the world the one's that ponce of any system outweigh the skilled people by many thousands, disregard the talk of "We came to work".
Every country has benefited from immigrants that brought skills to the host country, UK, Spain, France to name a few, the rest just came to take when they could.
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Immigration is seen entirely negative when in fact the UK has benefited enormously from the skills and talents most new arrivals bring.
True, but you could count on one hand the good skills they have brought to the UK.
Sorry but there are many
As an example you might want to look at the NHS with many immigrants for every thing from cleaners to consultants.
IT and science undustries have many more immigrants n
Also many do the jobs that the lazy benefit scrounging brits won't do esepcailly in the service industry (hotels, bars, cleaning, restaurants etc) - may not be super skills but things that are needed
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I wonder what message it would take from politicians to satisfy posters on here - one that made some sense!
So far we've had scare stories, now supplemented by some patronising bullying from Obama.
There may be some sycophants who are happy to accept this twaddle, but personally I need something more persuasive.
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Don't argue with an idiot, he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
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I wonder what message it would take from politicians to satisfy posters on here. An announcement Britain is divorcing from the entire global economy perhaps?
Politicians cannot satisfy any voters due to the fact that in the past, and even present they have told one lie to many, so who will trust them 100% over anything they tell us about the EU, plus they are like everyone else...Dont know the outcome...Only guessing.
Few of you seem to understand the inter- dependent world we inhabit. Perhaps you imagine the wealth Britain has created came from some form of internal sources, or its colonial past and foreigners had nothing to do with it.
The wealth the UK has made has come from the blood, sweat and tears that the good honest folk have worked for over the pre-EU years.
Immigration is seen entirely negative when in fact the UK has benefited enormously from the skills and talents most new arrivals bring.
True, but you could count on one hand the good skills they have brought to the UK.
What would Spain be like without the British immigrant's? Yes most bring their own money but then contribute to the economy in the same way as workers in the UK do. They pay tax, ni and try to build a better life. I don't believe immigration is negative its all positive for any country. America was founded and built by immigrants. Europe can prosper in the same way because there is a huge demographic of a declining worker population.
America was built by immigrants when America was basicaly empty of people, work was to be had, house's and business's to be built from nothing, service's were unheard of as we know them now.
The immigrants that are coming to the UK and the EU are for the most part hoping to get a free ride of the backs of people who have made the EU and other countries what they are today, of the millions who come maybe a handfull want to intergrate to make the host country a better place, the rest you could say only want the freebies of the land of milk and honey.
Isolationist policies such as brexit will break the UK because the rest of Europe will turn their backs and move forward. The USA and China will seek new political alliances within the community. Investors will look elsewhere for returns where risk is less uncertain.
So America and China wont want to sell the millions of products they now sell us if we leave, if the EU is a safe bet with no risk attached then someone should tell that to all these countries in the EU who are on paper nearly broke.
In short brexiteers will get the nation they deserve.
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I wonder what message it would take from politicians to satisfy posters on here. An announcement Britain is divorcing from the entire global economy perhaps?
Few of you seem to understand the inter- dependent world we inhabit. Perhaps you imagine the wealth Britain has created came from some form of internal sources, or its colonial past and foreigners had nothing to do with it.
Immigration is seen entirely negative when in fact the UK has benefited enormously from the skills and talents most new arrivals bring.
What would Spain be like without the British immigrant's? Yes most bring their own money but then contribute to the economy in the same way as workers in the UK do. They pay tax, ni and try to build a better life. I don't believe immigration is negative its all positive for any country. America was founded and built by immigrants. Europe can prosper in the same way because there is a huge demographic of a declining worker population.
Isolationist policies such as brexit will break the UK because the rest of Europe will turn their backs and move forward. The USA and China will seek new political alliances within the community. Investors will look elsewhere for returns where risk is less uncertain.
In short brexiteers will get the nation they deserve.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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I was in America last year, i spoke to many Americans in the month, did not come a cross anybody that liked Obama. Who gives a monkeys what he says.
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Most of these politicians are making fools of themselves.
Yes Teresa May is scraping the barrel with her "safer from terrorists if we stay in the EU comment" - there was no hint of a logical explanation to back it up. What about the proposed addition of Turkey to the EU? With the automatic free movement of such a massive number of muslims - surely that'll put an extra strain on our security services?
I have American relatives who detest Obama and after his recent patronising performance I can understand why. But equally BoJo was a bit daft with his racial slur, just not the kind of remark you expect from a prosepective PM.
Not sure how people are supposed to make up their minds based on the pearls of wisdom from this bunch of muppets. I reckon a high percentage won't bother to vote.
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Don't argue with an idiot, he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
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Teresa May she is hopeless the UK will shine more brightly on the World stage less restriction and Obama what a Plonker he is these people only make you want to leave more no its time for a change.
Love Hugh x
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We have partially cleaned the thread of the recent nonsense, and as this has to be one of the most discussed topics ever on this forum we have decided to re-open it. Now, that said, please behave, be polite and express your opinons in a civil manner. If this thread gets out of hand again we will lock it permanently. Thanks
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Oh come on now who actually thinks the UK will leave the EU? I know no more then you, him, or them, but for one moment in no way will we leave, the "Stays" have done such a good job with the scare tactics that when push comes to shove on the last day even the "I want outs" will start to imagine all the bad things that will happen to them so Pound for a Penny will vote to stay in.
And anyway if the voting figures don't make the vote the big boys want... The rabbit gets pulled out-a the hat and what do you know we missed some "In" votes so now we are staying....In short it will be a fiddle to stay if the out's win.
Don't get in a panic about leaving the UK or Spain, doc's bills, pension rights, we will all still be alive tomorrow, doing exactly what we have done over the past years....Living.
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I don’t think there have been too many posts on the thread telling people how to vote but I take your point. However debate of the issues and stating personal preference is not the same thing as telling voters what to do. They would not take any notice anyway. People make up their own minds.
In reply to your two points. I agree it’s a conundrum in many ways because nobody really knows what will happen after a Brexit vote. Not even the government because whatever happens afterwards it has to be negotiated and agreed with the rest of the UK’s EU partners. So in a sense a vote to leave the EU is a vote for uncertainty on a grand scale. It may take many more years than three to achieve.
I may be forced to return to the UK after 35 years enjoying a good life in Europe. I cannot live without healthcare and private healthcare is unthinkably expensive. Sterling may reduce the incomes of British expats with a Sterling income. Brits may have to re-apply for permissions to stay. It’s possible the Vienna Convention may protect those already registered fiscally but not the rest which in the case of Spain is many.
There is the old adage ‘better the dog you know than the one you don’t.’ I’m an old dog anyway so ending my days back in Britain does not particularly appeal. Becoming a citizen of the country where I live does not bother me at all. You are right in saying it may be the only option for new emigrants in years to come after Brexit.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Just a note from a non political agenda, this site is about people living in Spain who want to talk about experiences and advice, some times jokes some years ago, this very important subject has now to a in/out argument thread.
i have a apartment in Spain, I do not want to sell it! I want to live in it I have two options I believe:
1, we stay in the EU after the referendum or good talks in exit discussions though I think that could take 3 years!
2, we vote to leave and I will have to leave the UK, I'm 60, become a Spanish citizen, so will have to pay for medical care in Spain monthly, most likely loss auto pension increases when I take my state pension in 6 years, my small work drawdown pension will be ok but I will pay Spanish tax, I would have to move my UK assists to offshore accounts my UK financial advisor has already given me this advice.
this is the sort of thing we use this site for, not, who can provide the best word for word laws, if people want to argue there side of the referendum please start a thread " how to vote" I believe this thread is for the thousands of concerned uk part time or residents in Spain, who need advice on will happen after the vote, not what to vote!
Im not getting into a argument, I have just given above the 2 options above I think are open to me and many others.
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I Live in Warrington & Cabo Roig
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You are promoting Golden Dawn anti-semitic propaganda who twist ideas to suit their particular nasty cause.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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My research also took in -The Coudenhove Karlergi Plan - The Genocide of the peoples of Europe.
'A greater larger vision' indeed.
This message was last edited by blueeyes on 22/04/2016.
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Richard von Coudehove-Kalergi was an early advocate of a federal Europe. Wikipedia has a good summary of his life.
It was he who first suggested Beethoven's anthem Ode to Joy as the European anthem which was adopted in 1957. The European project has had a long distillation. It's still unfinished and likely to remain that way until nations and their people accept that their ideas of sovereignties take second place to a greater larger vision.
Nationalism dies hard in the hearts of men.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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A breakup of England. Where does that come from? That's far fetched in the extreme.
Extreme I don't think so Cornwall have wanted independance for years and even have a devolution deal now.
The North East, Yorkshire and Norfolk (to name a few) have considered it and there was even discussion about the NE joining Scotland
Many counties will follow and it will get worse
Plenty info on line and many indepedance movements already exist
The seeds have been planted and a Brexit will help these seeds grow and grow
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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A breakup of England. Where does that come from? That's far fetched in the extreme.
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