First occupation licence

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25 Feb 2008 2:29 PM by ******** Star rating in UK & Murcia. 574 posts Send private message

Hi Maria

We are buying on Sierra Golf in Murcia and you have kindly advised us previously with this purchase.

The developer - Grupo Masa is calling for purchase completions, this can be seen on their web-site as handovers begin at Sierra Golf.  This has been since October last year and there are now many people resident on the development without the FOL.  How can this be if Notaries cannot authorise the purchase without it?  They have already done so. 

Grupo Masa recently informed me when trying to get me to complete without the FOL that it was not a legal requirement because the Notaries don't need it to complete.  They said Notaries would not be signing if they were needed legally.  Your views appreciated please!

 



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Jane




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25 Feb 2008 3:18 PM by Gillespie Star rating in Costa Calida Area. 608 posts Send private message

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Grupo Masa are also responsible for Camposol near Mazarron. I know people who bought in 1998 who are still without Habitation certificates and still on builders generators. The town hall will not accept the urb because Masa have left roads and accesses unfinished. There are loads of people trying to sell but fall foul of having no habitation certificates. Many banks will not give a mortgage without them, though some do! Masa claim the town hall are too slow in dealing with the HC´s while the town hall claim Masa have to finish the works and submit architects stamped approval. Who knows who is telling the truth, it´s impossible to find out for sure.

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25 Feb 2008 4:14 PM by morerosado Star rating. 6927 posts Send private message

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It's in Grupo Masa's interest to get you to sign, remember that !

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25 Feb 2008 4:41 PM by mariadecastro Star rating in Algeciras (Cadiz). 9402 posts Send private message

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Provision 19 of Ground Act. Dated the 28th in May 2007.

Provision number 19. New works declaration

1.- For the authorization  deeds of new works under construction, Notaries will require, to be added  to the Notary file, the required administrative act of  compliance, approval or authorization of the work according to the planning legislation, as well as a certification issued by the relevant technical expert regarding the adjustment of the description of the work to the project approved by the administrative Act. ( IN SHORT WORDS. WORK LICENSE PLUS CERTIFICATE OF ARCHITECT).

For finished new work declaration´s deeds, Notaries will require the certification of relevant technical expert on the finishing of the work according to the described project, documentary accreditation of fulfillment of every requisite according to what is legally  needed for the  handing over of the property  to consumers as per the building Act, and the granting ( expressly or by administrative silence) of the required planning licenses ( IN SHORT WORDS: ARCHITECT´S CERTIFICATE OF END OF WORKS AND FIRST OCCUPATION LICENSE)

2. Land Registrar will require those same licenses for the registration of the deeds of  new work declaration.

REMEMBER: transaction needs to have Notary form in Spain and the ultimate authority in ownership is not the developer bu the Land Registrar, who is high legal professional in Spain. I have promised Susan an article on the meaning and functions of Land Registry in Spain.


EN ESPAÑOL:

Artículo 19. Declaración de obra nueva.

1. Para autorizar escrituras de declaración de obra nueva en construcción, los notarios exigirán, para su testimonio, la aportación del acto de conformidad, aprobación o autorización administrativa que requiera la obra según la legislación de ordenación territorial y urbanística, así como certificación expedida por técnico competente y acreditativa del ajuste de la descripción de la obra al proyecto que haya sido objeto de dicho acto administrativo.

Tratándose de escrituras de declaración de obra nueva terminada, exigirán, además de la certificación expedida por técnico competente acreditativa de la finalización de ésta conforme a la descripción del proyecto, la acreditación documental del cumplimiento de todos los requisitos impuestos por la legislación reguladora de la edificación para la entrega de ésta a sus usuarios y el otorgamiento, expreso o por silencio administrativo, de las autorizaciones administrativas que prevea la legislación de ordenación territorial y urbanística.

2. Para practicar las correspondientes inscripciones de las escrituras de declaración de obra nueva, los registradores exigirán el cumplimiento de los requisitos establecidos en el apartado anterior.



_______________________

Maria L. de Castro, JD, MA

Lawyer

Director www.costaluzlawyers.es

El blog de Maria



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25 Feb 2008 4:59 PM by ******** Star rating in UK & Murcia. 574 posts Send private message

Many thanks for the replies.  I am aware of the Masa situation in Camposol.  Given this information I just don't understand how the notaries can legally sign without it, as they clearly have.  Some, like me, require a mortgage and banks have granted this without the licence.  Does this mean that the Notaries who have signed purchasers' completions have broken the law - as posted below by Maria?

Thanks for your help again Maria. As usual your information is invaluable.



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Jane




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25 Feb 2008 5:04 PM by morerosado Star rating. 6927 posts Send private message

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Well, notaries certainly turn a blind eye at times to black money. They provided our builder with a private room so he could count out the money in secret.  That was back in April 2005 though & I think things are changing.

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25 Feb 2008 5:20 PM by ******** Star rating in UK & Murcia. 574 posts Send private message

I know More, same happened to us too, but it was when buying in 2003.  We were very naive and didn't have the benefit of a forum like this.  When taken into the little room we asked solicitor if it was legal and he shrugged his shoulders, so with his support for the black money transaction we called it 'legal fraud' and he agreed!!

If things are tightening up - why are solicitors still allowing clients to proceed when it's not legal?  Even worse no one seems to be monitoring them or these Notaries to protect clients. Too many buyers are criticised for not researching and checking things before buying abroad, but with laws implemented in such slap dash fashion it really doesn't matter how much research you do.  I'm becoming more like Victor Meldrew everyday!

Yours

Mr Angry! 



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Jane




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25 Feb 2008 7:07 PM by spanishsolicitor Star rating in Murcia. 140 posts Send private message

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In the Region Murcia a Notary can authorize the sign of a purchase deeds without FLO  because the Regional Act (Decreto Legislativo 1/2005)  says nothing about the obligation of the "Notario" regarding the FLO. The Notaries say that is applicable the Regional  Act no the General Act for Spain (Ley del Suelo).
Our advice is to check the file of the FLO in the Town Hall, review the administrative procedure finding out the stage of the process, maybe everything is fine or maybe your LFO won´t have possibilities to go ahead.
If our clients want to sign without FLO we modify the deeds including some economics clauses for protecting their interest until the LFO is granted.



This message was last edited by spanishsolicitor on 2/25/2008.

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25 Feb 2008 9:14 PM by ******** Star rating in UK & Murcia. 574 posts Send private message

Thanks for your help spanishsolicitor.  You say :

If our clients want to sign without FLO we modify the deeds including some economics clauses for protecting their interest until the LFO is granted.

Are you able to let us know what type of modifications these are?  It might help all of us who've been waiting to complete for a very long time.

thanks again



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Jane




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25 Feb 2008 10:20 PM by spanishsolicitor Star rating in Murcia. 140 posts Send private message

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In the deeds should be indicated:


1º "The developer  has not fulfilled thoroughly  the obligation of handover the house because the LFO has not granted"

2º "With the signature of this deeds we don´t acquire the full possession of the property because of  lack  of and essential element which is the LFO" 

3º An agreed damages clause must be included stipulating the sum to be payable at a daily rate  in the event of lack of LFO in a new deadline granted to the developer from the signature date

4º Withhold  15% of the price until the LFO is granted.

Before going to the Notary it is very important that an expert review exhaustively the file in the Town Hall. This is the key of success, find out about the legal possibilities of these LFOs



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26 Feb 2008 8:02 AM by ******** Star rating in UK & Murcia. 574 posts Send private message

Thanks for your help.  Very interesting and useful.

_______________________

Jane




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26 Feb 2008 11:50 AM by mariadecastro Star rating in Algeciras (Cadiz). 9402 posts Send private message

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Spanishsolicitor:

What about the fines that can be imposed by the Administration to people who live in houses without FOL?

What about provision 1 of the Ground Act which says that the provisions contained therein are applicable in all the spanish teritory? The Ground Act of 2007 is not a Planning Act but a legal tool on the legal regime of the Ground and  on equality in the exercise of constitutional rights related to the Ground and regarding those interests which management is entrusted to the State. Applicable and obligatory within all the Spanish teritory . Of course, Notaries cannot omit the  obligations and requirements contained herein regardless where they are based.

Laws made by the National parliament needs to be met within all the Spanish territory with the exceptions of Civil Law in those territories of local or provincial Law, which is not Murcia.

The Ground Act 8/2007 ( where the obligation of LFO is contained) is a Law of minimum requirements that need to be meet by every regional legislation.

_______________________

Maria L. de Castro, JD, MA

Lawyer

Director www.costaluzlawyers.es

El blog de Maria



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26 Feb 2008 12:25 PM by spanishsolicitor Star rating in Murcia. 140 posts Send private message

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This message was last edited by spanishsolicitor on 2/26/2008.

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26 Feb 2008 12:26 PM by spanishsolicitor Star rating in Murcia. 140 posts Send private message

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So Maria, Do you really think that all the notaries of Murcia are breaking the law and nothing happens ?
As you said it is not legal to occupy a house without FLO but do you know any Town Hall  fining people for this ? To be honest I don´t know but perhaps you know any cases.
I´ve been asking this question to many notaries in Murcia and everyone tell me that Internal Bylaws (Instrucciones, Circulares) confirm that it is possible to sign deeds without FLO.
Anyway Maria we are not here for fighting maybe some day in any Court...
 
Felix


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26 Feb 2008 12:45 PM by spanishsolicitor Star rating in Murcia. 140 posts Send private message

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I advice my clients to sign without FLO when I personally and previously  review exhaustively  the file of the FLO at the Town Hall and I am quiet sure about the prompt and successful grant.
Felix


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26 Feb 2008 2:00 PM by mariadecastro Star rating in Algeciras (Cadiz). 9402 posts Send private message

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Dear Colleague, spanishsolicitor:

I am not fighting against you but clarifying what  Law says.

The lack of FOL puts the buyer in such a  precarious situation ( people can tell you in this forum on how many disasters!) that it is very sensible that the New Ground Act imposes Notaries and Registrars that obligation before authorising transactions.

Notaries need to obey this Law of course.

Best regards,

Maria

_______________________

Maria L. de Castro, JD, MA

Lawyer

Director www.costaluzlawyers.es

El blog de Maria



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26 Feb 2008 2:25 PM by Poppyseed Star rating. 897 posts Send private message

Is this law applied retrospectively?

Many thanks,

Poppyseed



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Poppyseed




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26 Feb 2008 2:26 PM by mariadecastro Star rating in Algeciras (Cadiz). 9402 posts Send private message

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No, it is not.
Maria

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Maria L. de Castro, JD, MA

Lawyer

Director www.costaluzlawyers.es

El blog de Maria



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26 Feb 2008 3:16 PM by patpur Star rating in Castle Bromwich Bir.... 389 posts Send private message

This is the reason for so much confussion it should be applied retrospectively with our exceptions.Pat.



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26 Feb 2008 6:07 PM by ******** Star rating in UK & Murcia. 574 posts Send private message

Thanks for the clarification Maria.  Am I right in my interpretation that State law takes precedence over Regional law in this matter?  Therefore Notaries signing without the FOL -ANYWHERE in Spain will be breaking the law?

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Jane




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