RECIPROCITY - IN A 'NO DEAL ' CONTEXT

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14 Sep 2019 15:56 by beiderbeck Star rating. 13 posts Send private message

A copy of my question to the British Embassy in Madrid (FCO) appears below this message. 
Following a media report of President Sanchez (13.9.2019) in which he is reported to have been clear there will be no more negotiations with UK on Brexit, amidst all the confusion and uncertainty, I want to eliminate the possibility I have missed something - namely the meaning of the word 'reciprocity' in the 'no deal' context of Brexit. Previous reports are very clear that the Spanish government did not regard the 'settled status' scheme as UK law, for the purposes of 'reciprocity' . Although it is not primary legislation, the EU annex to the Immigration Act 1971 (August 2018) does give the impression that the scheme is 'lawful' in the context. So ------- what have I missed, and if there is a further statement from Spain about the application of the April 2019 legislation, designed to protect UK nationals resident in Spain,  in the event of 'no deal'. Can you enlighten me ? 
 Thanks ......................Beiderbeck 
Copy:  I really do not expect a reply from the FCO : in the past all they do is refer me to the Q & A section of the web site.
 
I have just seen a media report (eye on Spain) covering President Sanchez latest word on (no further)  'negotiations' . As a UK national permanently resident in Spain I cannot find confirmation that the 'reciprocity' 'guaranteeing' position of UK nationals in Spain, is satisfied by the UK settled status scheme for Spanish nationals - i.e. enshrined in UK law. Surely the Immigration Act 1971(EU appendix August 2018) satisfies 'reciprocity' in a 'no deal'  context. Please point me in direction of such confirmation, as I failed to find any reference on the FCO web site. Thank you




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15 Sep 2019 19:45 by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1838 posts Send private message

The 'reciprocity ' is that all uk residents in Spain will be required to apply for a new ID cards within 12 months of Brexit indicating their current permanant status. We are told this will be granted automatically for most people. How this will proceed is as yet an unknown quantity but if past experience with Spanish bureaucracy is any guide it's likely to be problematic.

Many EU citizens in Britain are currently finding it difficult to prove their settled status under the new requirements of the Home Office. If that continues I fear it will be repeated in Spain.  



_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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15 Sep 2019 20:15 by beiderbeck Star rating. 13 posts Send private message

Thanks for the response - which prompts the following questions:

Does anyone know if Spanish nationals resident in UK have applied for and been granted 'settled status' ? - which works whateve the Brexit outcome. It has been extremely dififcult to find any information on this, but important to find out.

The major question is about Spain's understanding of Uk legislation - UK believes its' secondary legislation (the settled status scheme) is 'good enough' whereas Spain seems to have always used a new Boletin whenever any new, or modified  law is passed, and intends to require UK to pass new equivalent (primary) legislation to 'guarantee' Spain's citizens status  in a no deal situation: the only way it would accept, to satisfy 'reciprocity' for UK nationals in Spain. (UK gov will not do this, and due to suspension of parliament, could not if it wanted to)  So - quite right, in a 'no deal' scenario a not so easy future lies ahead.  Triples all round ! Ian





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15 Sep 2019 20:23 by angeleyes1 Star rating in Camposol & Bradford. 406 posts Send private message

angeleyes1´s avatar

Hello Beiderbeck and welcome to EOS.

Brexit deal or no deal is an unknown quantity despite some people pretending to have all the answers. The best thing you can do is use your own common sense. British expats resident in Spain are a meal ticket to the Spanish economy. No right minded Spanish government will expel British residents.



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When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk.



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15 Sep 2019 21:29 by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1838 posts Send private message

The "meal ticket" principal is overdone. Spain has to act within a framework of law. Whilst I don't expect expulsions I do think fines and sanctions will be applied for anyone not complying with the rules the country creates. Such rules system will be based on reciprocity. If the UK leaves the EU without sufficient legal protection for its EU citizens equally Brits in Spain can expect difficulties. I would expect nothing less.



_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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15 Sep 2019 23:37 by beiderbeck Star rating. 13 posts Send private message

HI, Good to find some interest in this really strange situation. My original intention was to make progress in the potential situation of 'no deal' which some in the UK anticipate to happen and be declared as a national victory.  

Having read the boletin, there is no doubt in my mind that the provisions for UK citizens would be enacted in full if equivalent provisions were enshrined in UK law for Spanish citizens in UK.  I cannot find out if the Spanish have changed in respect of equivalent provisions and are now advising their citizens to use the provisions of 'settled status'.  - does anyone know , heard anything in this respect?

No, I dont think there is any likelihood of deliberate discouragement towards UK  nationals staying, but the cost of change - as third country residents dould mean the cost of change  of 'no deal' is high, and may impact severely on some,





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15 Sep 2019 23:43 by mariedav Star rating in Ciudad Quesada. 998 posts Send private message

Settled status in UK is the same as the EU permanent residence.

The Spanish government advice on Spanish citizens in UK with respect to a deal or no deal situation is laid out in the Lamoncloa website. The same site gives advice to UK citizens living in Spain and refers to the EU ruling on permanent residence.

Lamoncloa

 





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16 Sep 2019 08:40 by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1838 posts Send private message

Many thanks for that link. The Spanish Government have done more than most other states to advise their UK residents. It's clear that so-called living under the radar in future for Brits is over. No bad thing. The Hacienda is also tightening up. I have had letters recently requesting further documentation for back tax years. I wonder how many retired Brits currently avoiding paying their fair dues will now leave Spain or simply try to tough it out? I personally know several people who are considering their options.

I have little sympathy since many actually voted Leave.


This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 16/09/2019.

_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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17 Sep 2019 12:02 by beiderbeck Star rating. 13 posts Send private message

Good response, thanks - entirely agree about UK citizens contributing, and indeed benefitting from the overall living experience here in Spain.

To return to the original point, and responses:

Yes, I know of all the written advice on Moncloa site, yes I know of the UK Gov info web site, which is all very well but the evidence of whether the 'settled status scheme' is working well for Spanish citizens does not seem to be apparent - I have not seen any of the many people so involved shouting hooray we are secure in UK, & wonder why not. The importance I attach to that, is because of the reciprocity terms of the boletin 53.  ('no deal' issues) Has Spain now confirmed the reciprocity requirement is satisfied, and therefore boletin 53 would be enacted for UK citizens in the event of 'no deal'.  (if so please can I be released from this thread, by someone helpfully directing me to any official statement).  Thanks to everyone.  Cheers Ian





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17 Sep 2019 13:08 by ads Star rating. 3990 posts Send private message

In the absence of any such official statement, perhaps it’s worth writing to your MEP or local political representative to try and gain an answer to your outstanding query re Spain’s reciprocity in the event of no deal?





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17 Sep 2019 13:33 by beiderbeck Star rating. 13 posts Send private message

Thanks -  been there, done that - my attempt to tease out any official statement - from MEP:'s , media, orgs supporting Brits in Spain, MP's ( notably Alberto Costa - campaign for citizens rights) all fallen on deaf ears I'm afraid.  I started this thread as my last attempt to obtain information.

I am really thinking majority are trying to dismiss 'no deal' as not likely, and therefore not worth examining consequences. 





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19 Sep 2019 13:42 by ads Star rating. 3990 posts Send private message

Just a thought.. Perhaps because to provide such reassurances might be perceived by some as endorsing or assisting a no deal outcome? Who knows what goes on in the minds of these political representatives who all too frequently sadly fail to adequately respond to genuine concerns in a sufficiently transparent manner....





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03 Oct 2019 08:24 by beiderbeck Star rating. 13 posts Send private message

The original message on this thread was not really answered, as the reciprocity required by the Spanish government wanted the same prmary legislation in UK for 'settled status'. for Spanish citizens remaining in UK. The UK Gov has bolted the  scheme on via secondary legislation- which is not the same - it can be changed anytime without debate in Parliament. Sadly, nobody has been able to say anything about the experience Spanish citizens are having in UK at this time.  Moving on from that, as the UK parliament session is ending on Tuesday next, I see from UKGOV statements this week that the uprating of pensions for those registered as resident in EU countries will end, if I read the latest stamenet correctly 'will continue to be uprated for the lifetime of this parliament' . whch of course ends next Tuesday. Curiously it conflicts with the statement yesterday about those in Ireland - looks like their UK state pensions will continue to be uprated, as a bilateral agreement has been signed. 

 





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03 Oct 2019 09:15 by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1838 posts Send private message

The UK government has agreed that all UK state pensions paid to EU British residents will be uprated for 3 years including 2022/23. Healthcare will continue to be funded until 31st December 2020. Thereafter is anyones guess but they cannot commit until a bilateral treaty is signed.

There are various anecdotal press articles, mainly in The Guardian highlighting the poor treatment of EU citizens living in UK by the Home Office. To gain any more evidence of this is very difficult The focus around these difficulties people experience is proving their entitlement to so-called 'settled status' to the satisfaction of the civil servants.

Brits in Spain with permanent residency are reassured they will be granted the new registration card automatically. We shall see. Therein lies the difference of approach which may well change if enough Spanish people complain to their government about their treatment by the British and the UK leaves the EU without any deal whatsoever. 



_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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03 Oct 2019 10:02 by Kavanagh Star rating in Oil Drum Lane Newcas.... 831 posts Send private message

Kavanagh´s avatar

Whatever is agreed by a government is only good for as long as that government lasts.

Whatever bilateral treaties are agreed the same applies, and there will always be ‘’get out’’ clauses.

The only way to be reassured is to take things on a day by day basis, and only believe half of what you are told.



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03 Oct 2019 11:33 by beiderbeck Star rating. 13 posts Send private message

HI, It's me again -  Only looking at the flood of UKGOV announcements under Brexit and' no deal', dated this week.Not the newspapers. & trying to obtain views relevant to the official announcements. 

We  had a change of  Sec of State after A Rudd announcement on 1 Sept that the pensioners involved would continue to have updates until Apr 2023.  She walked out, and the new Sec of State announced on 27 Sept that these updates would continue only for the lifetime of this parliament - this could bring us back to the situation before 1st Sept, which was a halt on uprating in a no deal scenario/ uncertainty, and several other notifications. However last night came the announcement of the end of the parliament, all bills fall, and the uprating ends (in line with the announcement of 27th Sept) Because pensions are secondary legislation, the Gov of the day can so what it likes via a SI at any time.All this latest info is set out on the GOVUK web site.





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03 Oct 2019 12:20 by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1838 posts Send private message

I think in the real world you have to view these things on a pragmatic balance of probability scenario. By that I mean is that likely? It's like any company and government department trying to cover all eventualities and bases at once but practical common sense usually emerges.

Yes, it's possible UK migrants in the EU will lose every current advantage in a no-deal situation. Yes, it's possible the Spanish will play hardball over Gibraltar and block all concessions to UK residents. However is it likely?

I believe the answer is no, not at all. There is no certitude in life. Risk follows like night and day so you need to ask the question "why would they?". Answer - only if it's in their best interests.

I've just received a two page A4 letter from the DSS setting out all scenarios with Brexit. If I were the worrying type it would cause me even more concern. The letter is designed to reassure people. All it does is increase anxiety. 



_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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03 Oct 2019 12:41 by angeleyes1 Star rating in Camposol & Bradford. 406 posts Send private message

angeleyes1´s avatar

The whole issue of state pension up rates seems bizarre, other than the government saving money by scamming expats. If you paid your money in, you are entitled to the same as everyone else, no matter where you reside.

When I paid in, retirement payment was 65 for men and 60 for women, but that’s all been torn up now. Maybe up rates will only apply when you get your pension with the Queens telegram, or does she now send an email?

100 today, thanks for my pension.



_______________________
When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk.



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