New law for private rentals in Andalucia

Randolph, thanks for those links, and ads for posting the link to that thread. I knew nothing about this first occupation licence business, and am pretty sure there's not an estate agent, lawyer or probably public notary within miles of here who does either! Admittedly, it's been a while since I've been actively involved in the property market (I sold my last property in 2007, which looks inspired now, but was just lucky!)

Maria, what's the current situation  / legislation in Andalucia with regards to buying / selling? I have never heard, even recently, of anyone being required to produce an occupancy licence of any description.

When EOS first started, it's aim was to assist potential buyers in navigating the minefield. Since then, and certainly since I first started buying and selling property in Spain, things have certainly got more and more complicated and difficult. After reading that thread, ads, I would be put off for good if I was new to Spain and thinking of buying. 

"Methinks the hotel lobby are winning the battle". I'm starting to think they have already won. Again, it's been more than 15 years since I owned and operated a tourist apartment business. It was licenced as "alojamientos turisticos", so would not have come under this new legislation. However, at that time, I had fire extinguishers, guests were properly registered etc., but otherwise....there was no lift in the block, which had four floors; the rooms had no a/c; wifi of course didn't exist then!

More to the point, and another one for Maria, please (because, sorry, I don't have the time or inclination to trawl the interweb for the info) what are the current requirements for such premises, and even more importantly, for hotels??

I know of one large hotel here, for example, that charges for wifi (they even charge guests for use of sun loungers around the pool) and I'm certain there are many smaller / older hotels that do not have a/c in every room. 

Some "level playing field"! 

Our posts crossed Roberto. You are absolutely correct that the situation has become very complex and chaotic and imho the best way to resolve this  in the longer term is to provide a legal mandatory system with all Notarial checks in place at point of transfer. This can only happen however when town halls clear up their act and provide legal licences for those properties that do not obstruct planning laws and likewise when owners update the details relating to any changes relating to their properties, etc (including Banks who have repossessed properties and in the ptocess are currently avoiding payment of community debts). A long way off I suspect and until then the  insecurities and lack of trust in the system will sadly remain.

This message was last edited by ads on 14/02/2016.

...and probably never going to happen, as long as each region sets it's own agenda rather than having one national ruling on such important matters. (which ties in nicely with the discussion about Brexit, don't you think?  )

Totally agree with you Roberto and this regional scenario has also contributed sadly to inconsistent judicial rulings with regard to adherence and clarification of Bank Guarantee law and played its part in indirectly delaying Supreme Court doctrine so essential in the protection of property rights when fighting for justice against the Banks....but that's another subject altogether. :(

Team GB , you quoted my post :-

My son lets a property but to people he knows so no advertising,.  According to the wording of the regs, and Maria’s understanding, as he does not advertise he will not have to register.
 

You then posted :-  

John, advertising has no bearing on whether you need to register - advertising a non registered property will just get you caught quicker. Not advertising a property does not appear on the list of exemptions, what does appear as an exemption is if you rent or let for no cost - which you've told us several times is what your son does

I had previoulsy posted (in another thread) : :-   One thing I did notice was that the original referred to properties which were 'advertised or let through agencies, advertisements,  etc'.   So how would that apply to a property which was let, albeit as a tourist let, but only to people known  to the owner, or say by word of mouth ?      In UK law that wording would be significant.

Quote from REgs:-    Artículo 3. Definición  (of a property which must register)

3. Se considerarán canales de oferta turística, las agencias de viaje, las empresas que medien u organicen servicios turísticos y los canales en los que se incluya la posibilidad de reserva del alojamiento.

The reply by Maria was: 

According to recently passed Andalucia Law the situation that you describe, does not fall into the regulation of tourist rentals

Team GB.  Do you believe Maria was wrong when she said that ?

John

I'm not going to get into a debate on whether Maria was right or wrong

I'm just saying 

Advertising the property or not, as the case may be, has no bearing on whether you need to register - advertising a non registered property will just get you caught quicker. Not advertising a property does not appear on the list of exemptions, what does appear as an exemption is if you rent or let for no cost - which you've told us several times is what your son does

I'm not going to get into a debate on whether Maria was right or wrong.   I'm just saying:- 

She was wrong    (that is your answer abbreviated).

 I do not know,   but as the Regs clearly say, 

“Se considerarán canales de oferta turística, las agencias de viaje, las empresas que medien u organicen servicios turísticos y los canales en los que se incluya la posibilidad de reserva del alojamiento”   .......     

Maria said lettings  outside that definition (let to friends and family, by word of mouth) would not be subject to registration..

My point originally was, that if that was an English Law,   the precise meaning would be open to legal interpretation

Whatever way you look at it something needs to be done about holiday home owners renting out their properties to anyone (family, friends, online etc) whether they charge or not (in the case of johnzx's son) especially in line with the following:

1. Taxable income (in Spain and in home country e.g. UK) - not sure how many declare this income and even any possible offset any cost incurred as a result of a nil income rental!

2. Safety - does the property meet all local requirements for H&S towards the guest as the owner renting out the property has a duty of care to the saftey of his guests. Even in your main home  most UK house insurances have a personal liability clause for accidents to guests and occupants etc,

3.Insurance - many may have holiday home insurance only which will not cover the essentials for guests (paying or not)

4. Does the guests own travel insurance cover them whilst in the property, I have heard of people who have been robbed where their travel insurance has paid out. So do the travel insurance companies check the rental - I guess all they are really interested in is the polcie report? But you never know

5. use of unregsitered keyholders - many owners simply do not get the implications of this

Fortunatley serious incidents seem to be few and far between but one thing is for sure any "understandings" go out o the windows when it is yours that are injured etc.

People take chances and stay under the radar but when many do it someone wil sit up, take notice  and start shouting foul especially when their business (i.e. hotels) are suffering

All good points. I would add to that, some way to protect the rights of home owners living in residential buildings / complexes who have to suffer the often unruly behaviour & noise of absentee landlords' tenants. Theoretically, it may be possible for a community of owners to actually ban holiday lets (paid for / advertised or not), but in practice this would probably require a unanimous vote of the owners, so would never happen. Currently, there is little an owner or community can do in practice to curb trouble making holiday makers' behavior where the landlord does not take responsibility for his own tenants. Very wrong.

John

I'm not in the mood for bickering, one more try.

Se considerarán canales de oferta turística, las agencias de viaje, las empresas que medien u organicen servicios turísticos y los canales en los que se incluya la posibilidad de reserva del alojamiento

The above translated is

Are considered to be channels of tourism, travel agencies, companies that medien ororganize tourist services and channels which include the possibility of booking the accommodation.

To try and suggest (if that is what you are doing) that the new decree does not apply to private landlords that let by word of mouth, or those that do not use agents advertising or agencies, is clearly nonsense

It's definitely open to interpretation. "Channels that allow for reserving accomodation" could mean anything really though. A note in a newsagent's window, word of mouth down the local boozer...if you reserve specific dates rather than just turn up and hope the property is available, you could be said to have reserved through some medium or other, thereby defining the property as a holiday let governed by the new law.

I think Maria responded to your son's situation of not charging, as opposed to not advertising, John. But I may be wrong.

I can see so many possible loopholes anyway - like landlords simply telling their guests that if questioned, they're to say they are family or friends and that they're not paying for accomodation. Who can prove otherwise, if it was indeed let via a note in a shop window in England?

Sorry Team, but it was not me saying it but  Maria.   As you will see from her post which I pasted into this thread  for your reference.      So maybe you should open a dialog with her and explain to her why she is wrong.

Anyway moving on!!!

If you read the Decree - Chapter 4 speaks of 

Single transitional provision. Transitional arrangements.

And goes on to say (translated so not perfect sense)

1. Articles 7 and 8 shall not apply to dwellings located on property situated in residential land, contracted or reserved prior to the entry into force of this Decree, in which the price offered by hosting service the area of ​​Andalusia, as usual, and for tourism.

I wonder if this could be a loop hole for those who already have confirmed and paid bookings for this summer?

Roberto

like landlords simply telling their guests that if questioned, they're to say they are family or friends and that they're not paying for accomodation. Who can prove otherwise,

This exactly the scenario I was alluding to.

OK when everything is good but as soon as an accident or something serious occurs to the renter these sort of "agreements" go out of the window - most people would not lie and would want to protect theselves and their own.

As stupid a lot of us think the police / authorities are they have heard all of these sort of things before and see thorugh them easily and probably turn a blind eye when nothing happens but when it gets serious............

Same for all the illegal taxis and key holders

Hello all:

I missed much of the thread. Questions??

Dear Maria,

Are owners who completed on their properties prior to 2013 but were denied legal licences through no fault of their own, going to be left in legal limbo until such time as the  Town Halls confirm the legality of their dwellings? Will they be prevented from renting out their properties in the interim period (since licences appear to be a pre-requisite) and if so would  they be eligible for compensation?

Also for those compromised by negligences of Town Halls (and/or legal professionals who failed to act with due diligence) who turned a blind eye to planning illegalities and were "allowed to" complete on their purchase without provision of legal licences, also be eligible for compensation?

Also what is going to happen to all those denied licences due to non completion of outstanding infrastructure? Will they too be compromised by this latest ruling?

In other words do " innocent purchasers" denied of legal licences for whatever reason now have an administrative nightmare on their hands as they are left to wait for Town Halls to complete their administrative tasks to clean up the failures and negligences of the past?

Are they in effect being made scapegoats, for a system that has failed to protect them, failed to put in place MANDATORY procedures to prevent transference of property until such time as  all legal licences were provided, plus all necessary " financial securities" required to cover remaining infrastructure works?

Perhaps I have misunderstood?

This message was last edited by ads on 16/02/2016.

I I have been reading new regulations regarding short term rentals up to 2 months.  Does anybody know what are the regulations for longer rentals over 2 months?

Here below you can find regulations for rentals over 2 months:

http://www.eyeonspain.com/blogs/costaluz/11328/Legal-tip-1029-NEW-Spain-Rental-Act.aspx

OK, since this thread has been "bumped", I have a question: how can the public check easily (and without actually quizzing the owner, who naturally may be somewhat reticent) if a holiday let property has been properly registered? And if it hasn't, whom should one bring the fact to the attention of? 

For example, a property in our block has been rented; the tenants locked themselves out (leaving the phone number of the landlord as well as their phone inside) and came to me asking for help. I tried calling the landlord 5 times over the space of a couple of hours, and left a text message (Saturday afternoon) to which I have still not received a reply, and he has not visited the property or contacted the tenants. Clearly this is in breach of the rules for holiday lets having a 24 hour number for emergencies. So, IF he's registered the property, who do I report this to, and if he HASN'T, who do I then report that to?

Unless it's easy for the general public to effectively police this new regulation, I don't see it being very effective at all.

(I assisted the tenants in obtaining entry, but obviously cannot give further details on a public forum!)