" I assumed that a considerable part of the price was for the complex facilities not just for the substandard building."

Norman, as I understand it the marketing literature, according to Maria, acts as part of the contract.

Dear All,

it should be made clear that if you stayed at Casares del Sol you are not tied to the site you are free to walk off and enjoy golf, restuarant and other facilities on nearby sites which are available fairly close.

I believe that some promise of this was included in the brochure for facilities on the adjacent up hill site Casares del Sol Suites which was supposed to be coming as an apart-hotel of some sort, you would be given some sort of concession for this.

I hope that completes the picture.

Regards

Norman

Dear Roy,

you suggest I need professional help and of course I agree.

But what use is it if Spain is totally corrupt?

you have referred to the corruption yourself and many have complained of their treatment though some have succeeded.

But have you seen this.............

Many have spent much money for nothing and I have little left to waste.

Should we not give up and leave them to it?

All the "charming" mockers and abusers can attend the demolitions and cheer the bulldozers.

Regards

Norman

Dear Ads,

we have so many people wanting to scrutinise the contract as if it was of sole importance, then surely any lawyer worth their salt would ensure that all was contained within.

Techno claims that he altered his second contract, though I suspect he means that he got one of his army of helpers, the lawyer, to do it.

If it is that easy then surely my lawyer was entirely negligent in not ensuring at least a clause including all promotional literature with a list could have been included. Furthermore why is it not standard practice in Spain for all developments?

It seems so simple here, it would be just added to the special condition terms.

it makes you wonder exactly what Spanish lawyers do for their fees in a property transaction?

Regards

Norman

I am sorry Norman but I tghink that this thread has run its course and there is now nothing to be gained from any other comments and there is lots of good comments here

You have been given all of the necessary advice to get a decent lawyer and professional advice and help and keeping on about the Spanish system etc is pointless

I have been writing articles on this forum for the last 5 yaers about Bank Guarntees, independant lawyers and rather than making the comments about Tecno and his lawyers mocking this he should be applauded for doing the right thing in getting the right advice when it mattered

You don´t even know if you still have  lawyer, if he is a registered lawyer, if he is still acting for you

You can only resolve this by going to law which will cost you money

I would prefer if if you can come back with comments when you actually have taken advice and an update on your status rather than as we are now just going around in  circles as the last 3 posts were all made by you

Sorry to be so blunt

I think it would be worthwhile asking Maria if the marketing literature which you would have to produce as evidence automatically forms part of the contract according to Spanish Law, in which case you would not have required an extra clause written into the contract. Is that right Maria?

Dear Roy,

I am glad you think the thread has been useful

however we are still no nearer to a conclusion as to who is right, Colin or Maria?

There is of course no comparison to what Colin did and what I did and I apologise if you think there was any mocking involved but I stand by my post.

I believe it should be on record that he was on his second purchase with much help from honest longstanding agents with a recommended lawyer, recomended developer, recommended surveyor PLUS Justin (an ex victim with huge experience) PLUS Smiley ( with matching experience) and of course fluent Spanish all round. Neverthless he still felt it necessary to add things into the contract.

With all that in place and no off-plan do you not think it would have been a miracle if anything had gone wrong?

Can you see the contrast?

I am of course used to the UK system where it is all straightforward and you can do it all yourself if you wish.

I have done my best to prompt an answer from Maria but as yet she has refused to bite

Perhaps now she will?
 

Regards and thanks

Norman

"we have so many people wanting to scrutinise the contract as if it was of sole importance, then surely any lawyer worth their salt would ensure that all was contained within."

It is the most important document between the vendor and the purchaser. and it is vital that everything you expect from the property is included in the purchase contract. The purchase contract is drafted by the vendors Lawyers and is usually an 'off the shelf' basic contract stating what and where the property is, the size of the property, how many rooms and their usage, size of terraces, etc.

"Techno claims that he altered his second contract, though I suspect he means that he got one of his army of helpers, the lawyer, to do it."

No! As I said before I did this myself! I told my Lawyer what I wanted added in the contract. Including that my Kitchen was as described in the Sales literature, as the 'White Goods' were missing, and how long I would have after completion to conduct a 'snagging survey' and how long they would have to rectify any/all problems from that survey, before being in breach of contract. Also failure to conduct a single problem on the 'snag list' would also constitute a breach of contract.

"If it is that easy then surely my lawyer was entirely negligent in not ensuring at least a clause including all promotional literature with a list could have been included. Furthermore why is it not standard practice in Spain for all developments?"

The purchase contract between you and the vendor is only for the property you are purchasing, and is drafted by the vendors Lawyers, It is then made available to the purchaser, who has the right to make amendments before it is handed back to the Vendors Lawyers. The contract does not include any 'features' of the complex, other than access to 'communal' aspects of the complex, such as Gardens, Pools, Parking, etc.

"It seems so simple here, it would be just added to the special condition terms."

Correct!

"it makes you wonder exactly what Spanish lawyers do for their fees in a property transaction?"

Not much! Just like any Lawyer/Solicitor in any country! The do as little as possible for as much as possible!

Actually that is a lie! A good Lawyer will do a lot of work, and always be on your side!

"There is of course no comparison to what Colin TechNoApe (please only refer to me by my forum name) did and what I did and I apologise if you think there was any mocking involved but I stand by my post."

Wrong! It doesn't matter if you buy 'off-plan' or a 'key ready' property, the property purchase contract is the same, other than the completion time-scale with regards to a scheduled payment system for 'off-plan' properties. 

"I believe it should be on record that he was on his second purchase with much help from honest longstanding agents with a recommended lawyer, recommended developer, recommended surveyor PLUS Justin (an ex victim with huge experience) PLUS Smiley ( with matching experience) and of course fluent Spanish all round. Nevertheless he still felt it necessary to add things into the contract."

Again wrong! Well, mostly!

Yes! I have purchased property in Spain twice.

Yes! Honest, longstanding British Estate Agent here on CDS, local to where I was purchasing!

No! I found my own Lawyer, who then during conversations with people not connected to this purchase, he was highly recommended. Also the Estate Agent held him with high regard, however I found this out when I told my Estate Agent who I was using as a Lawyer!

No! The developer was not recommended. I was shown a vast amount of properties, most of which I picked myself from those on the Estates Agents books.

No! I found my own Surveyor.

No! Justin gave me no help during either purchase, other than that what I received from him and others on this forum over the years before both purchases, during the research phase prior to each purchase.

No! Smiley had nothing to do with the second purchase, I used him for a mortgage on the first, and would highly recommend his services.

No! I do not speak fluent Spanish even now, and during the second purchase I spoke, and understood less, very little Spanish.

"With all that in place and no off-plan do you not think it would have been a miracle if anything had gone wrong?"

Lots of things could have gone wrong had I not done any research!

I hope this clarifies my stance on property law here in Spain, as I am merely talking about the property, and not what the urbanisation or 'holiday complex' should or should not be!

Lastly, I agree with Inspectahomespain posts and in particular his last post below.

Technoape you say " It doesn't matter if you buy 'off-plan' or a 'key ready' property, the property purchase contract is the same, other than the completion time-scale with regards to a scheduled payment system for 'off-plan' properties. " but you make no mention of the reference to a Bank Guarantee within the contract that relates to offplan purchase, which is there according to Law 57/68 to protect the purchaser should the developer breach the contract, so they are not the same.

"but you make no mention of the reference to a Bank Guarantee within the contract "

Agreed! I did forget to mention that, however it was late at night when I was posting and I was not talking about Bank Guarantees, Certificates of Insurance and/or Financial arrangements that should be mentioned in the purchase contract.

I was merely stating that when I say they are the same, I mean they are the same with regards to the fact the purchase contract is drafted by the vendors Lawyers and is usually an 'off the shelf' basic contract stating what and where the property is, the size of the property, how many rooms and their usage, size of terraces, etc.

There is no difference in the purchase contracts with regards to stating what you are purchasing!

However, an important fact to remember is that the draft contract is then sent to the purchasers Lawyer, who then should seek approval from the purchaser. If there is something that the purchaser is not happy with or wants added to the contract, then this is done and sent back to the Vendors Lawyers for approval by the Vendor. Then once the contract is agreed by both parties, and their Lawyers, the contract is signed by the purchaser.

Technoape

What is your understanding of the marketing/sales literature and contract law in Spain?

much of what is being said about contracts, a decent lawyer, careful checks etc, are all good sense, but the reality is often very different. Many have found that there are so many grey areas with regards to what constitutes a claim against a developer with regards to delays, LFO's, BG's and quality or size issues that the risk of standing up for your rights has for years,  far often been considered to risky?

If that is now changing or has indeed changed already for new buyers then great, it means common sense is at last  having a place in buying Spanish property, rather than relying on a legal or justice lottery?  Let's hope this extends to all those waiting for justice, that will be a true measure of how serious Spain is about acting like a civalised country and doing the right thing for those it's clearly wronged.?

Dear Techno,

I have tried to understand you, revisited your video etc. but failed.

You seem to be saying that without Spanish you nevertheless altered the written Spanish draft contract as agreed between you and the Spanish lawyer whilst your chosen lawyer stood idle. Some feat.

You also seem to say that the contract document for the sale of an ordinary town house is the same as a closed site off-plan luxury holiday complex with every possible holiday facility in place.

Which would leave every proposed purchaser liable to complete on only the supply of some living space.

That to me cannot possibly be right and contradicts the very meaning of contract completion, which requires all to be substantially complete BEFORE legal completion and the handing over monies in satisfaction.

Maria may have contradicted this in the past but is reluctant to challenge you now.

Perhaps some other lawyer can comment?

If correct surely that would have killed Off-Plan sales before they ever started - no one in their right mind would risk it or even propose it.

It just does not make sense.

Regards

Norman

If correct surely that would have killed Off-Plan sales before they ever started - no one in their right mind would risk it or even propose it.

Q.E.D.

Technoape

What is your understanding of the marketing/sales literature and contract law in Spain?

Most of the problems that I see reguarly in contract law at many resorts like Corvera, Polaris La Terrazes, RODA, and where there are real legal cases going through the courts now, is that the facilities of the resort are NEVER included in the sales contract, all you are buying are the bricks of your property and often they include the pool.

It doesn´t matter if it is a standalone property or a place on a multi-million euro golf resort the contract are often the same

People buying do not realise this, again often poor legal advice

The only document that a developer requires to enforce completion is The Certification of Habitation for THE PROPERTY

There have been numerous claims made on this forum that the information included in the marketing material relating to things like hotels, spa´s shopping facilities but there is little real evidence of success with these cases, some cliam to have won actions but there still seems nobody willing to ACTUALLY confirm this with the actual details of the case and if this has really set any sort of legal precedence

The biggest issue is that if a developer is still in business they will claim as defence that they will EVENTUALLY build the facilities when the economic situation allows and there are real example here, Polaris at Hacienda Requelme when they did eventually convert the Hacienda into a commercial facility

The marketing information does not of course include any timescales or actual dates for the complete facilities

The other issue is, even when they build the facilities like the hotel, and commercial centres they sit empty becaise people will nit rent them as so few people have completed on the sites including places like United Golf, Peralajec Golf and Polaris Resorts

Dear Roy,

I know you do not need recognition but my very sincere thanks for that.

You have helped me enormously by it and if ever I can return the favour just ask.

I have been reluctant to take Goodstitch's path and just employ lawyers who by instinct I now suspect.

Since the occurance I have saved a little money from my pension and have been contemplating employing Maria to try to recover the deposit from the contractor Interlaken, my contract was with them, though I understand others were with the other members of the syndicate of three promoters.

But of course I do not wish to waste a penny more.

I am now of course extremely suspicous of Maria for her silence on this issue and she does not do "no win no fee".

It is all money up front with her as with other lawyers.

Needless to say her silence does not impress me at all.

Many many thanks

Norman

Maria may well be away at the moment as she ALWAYS answers people very promptly and she has had a great deal of success in re-claiming money from developers

She has helped some of my clients and has an excellent reputation from comments made by others on this forum

Lawyers in Spain always ask for money up front and the system is very expensive

What you need to do it make contact with other people on the same development who may be further on with legal action understanding the ground for their claim, maybe joining a group action to save costs

Even if they win the developer always has the right to appeal typically adding a couple of years to the justice process and the risk always remains if they will still be in business 

Dear Roy,

how sensible, impressive

thanks

as before

perhaps Jerry will respond?

Regards

Norman

"What is your understanding of the marketing/sales literature and contract law in Spain?"

Exactly the same as it has always been, and as expressed by others on this forum:

The purchase contract is for the the property you are purchasing, and not for the 'facilities' that the completed Urbanisation/Resort is to have. Unless of course you stipulate in the purchase contract otherwise!

"You seem to be saying that without Spanish you nevertheless altered the written Spanish draft contract as agreed between you and the Spanish lawyer whilst your chosen lawyer stood idle. Some feat."

Correct! But no mean feat!

My Lawyer spoke English and Spanish, as most good Lawyers here in Spain do! Also I used a Translation Service Company, just to make sure! Total extra expenditure £139.00 in order to translate all documents and communique!

I never, ever said my Lawyer stood idle! In fact he was the reverse and insisted that I make sure that I understood the purchase contract I was entering into, at every stage!