Bank Guarantees explained

Disagree, disagree, disagree. Maria is very passionate about the work she does just try working together to sort YOUR problems out. You are all wrong at the end of the day. It will never change if back biting is all you do to each other. It is us buyers who are being treated badly.

Chrissie

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I agree Lawbird, you can't force developpers to put a clause in the BG however, the buyer can, and, if you advice your client against purchase untill the clause is there, and every other lawyer does the same they will have to do it if they want to sell anything. Laws are there for the benefit of society and if you lot create a need, the law may well be changed.

As for me generalising, ?do you think all EOS members have the same solicitor? Noooooooo.

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I purchased off plan and my contract says the builder will by law provide a BG.      Now that my development is not going to get build due to lack of plots being sold my lawyer tells me that as I do not have a BG I need to go to court to have any chance of getting my money back.     I understood that it was his responsibility to ensure that a BG was in place.  He seems to disagree and is asking me for the BG that I should have obtained from the builder.    I appreciate from some posts that having a BG doesn't  mean you will get your money back but do I have a case against my lawyer?    Shouldn't he have ensured that this was all in place as per the contract?      The lawyer and agent are both absolving themselves from any responsibility.  

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It is your Lawyers place to have got your Bank Guarantee..that's what you pay him for!!

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If one wishes to reclaim deposit monies paid on an off-plan development (for whatever reason) and

the contract is deemed to be null and void

is there any alternative to going via the courts or a bank guarantee?

I am not trying to cut out the work of the solicitor here but it seems we are between a cleft stick as the courts may take years, we do not have a BG in place, so we would have to hope the developer is feeling kind enough to agree to an acceptable deal with us.

Or .... does the developer have insurance or similar or would there be any 3rd route worth considering?

Many thanks.

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WE WERE NOT INFORMED TO MAKE A NEW BANK OR DEVELEPERS GUARANTEE WHEN THE BANK GUARANTEE RAN OUT IN SEP 07. THE BUILDING WAS NOT COMPLETED.
WE WERE TOLD THE BUILDER HAD A RIGHT THAT WE WAIT ANOTHER THREE MONTHS BEFORE WE COULD CLAIM.
THE BUILDING WAS COMPLETED IN THE JANUARY.
UNFORTUNALTLY THE PROPERTY HAS NO HABITATION LICENCE WE WERE TOLD IT WOULD BE ISSIUED IN MARCH AND TO GO WITH THE DEVELOPERS MORTGAGE AND COMPLETE.
WE DECLINED AND SAID WE WOULD WAIT FOR THE HABITATION LICENCE TO COME THROUGH AND GET OUR OWN MORTGAGE.
THE HABITATION LICENCE IS STILL NOT GRANTED  TO THIS DAY AND SO WE HAVE ASK THE LAWYER TO EXECUTE THE BANK GUARANTEE WHICH TO OUR HORROR IS NOW OUT OF DATE.
WITH THIS CREDIT CRUNCH WE FIND WE MIGHT NOT GET A MORTGAGE NOW
THE BUILDER HAS STATED THAT WE WILL LOOSE ALL OUR DEPOSITS. THIS CANNOT BE RIGHT WHO IS AT FAULT HERE.WE SHOULD HAVE BEEN LOOKED AFTER BY OUR INDEPENDANT LAWYER WHO BUY THE WAY HAS FIRMS ALL OVER THE WORLD ALSO HERE IN UK.
WHO IS TO BLAME .THE BUILDER THE BANK .THE LAWYER .US
THE PROEPRTY IS DEEMED NOT LEGAL UNTIL THE HABITATION LICENCE IS THROUGH SO WE COULD NOT LIVE IN IT  RENT IT SELL IT OR INSURE IT.
WE SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO GET OUR FUND BACK WITH HAVING TO GO TO LITIGATION.
CAN ANYONE HELP PROVIDE US WITH SOME ANSWERS WE ASK OUR LAYWER BUT THE EMAIL JUST GO UNANSWERED.

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You need to get another litigation Lawyer,  ASAP, preferably one that knows consumer Law. I would suggest you contact Maria de Castro who regularly contributes to this forum.

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UPDATED

You need to get another litigation Lawyer,  ASAP, preferably one that knows consumer Law. I would suggest you contact Maria de Castro who regularly contributes to this forum.

Maria L. de Castro, JD, MA

Lawyer

Director www.costaluzlawyers.es

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Hi

Think the answer to this question would be very useful following my last which was pretty well ignored,that being

1 Whats the chance of getting Banks to pay out on Bank Guarantees.

2 Next question. Just how long can someone expect to wait to get the litigation to court and I am not talking about the appeal that follows if you win.

 

I have mine which is 4 Years and not even a court date set.

I know of several of 4/5 and up to 7 years with no date set.

Surely these are direct questions that need answers for EVERY single person who has property problems in Spain.

 

If someone where starting today my guess and its only that

Between 5 to 7 Years to get to court

If you win then there will be an appeal and thats another 2 to 3 years.

Banks simply  or whoever wont pay anyway as they cant and will just ignore court orders.

Now this is Just the Banks.  The chances against a developer would be worse that that

Remember you will be paying legal fees and interest throughout this period

 

Just Dan

 

 

 

This message was last edited by Just Dan on 11/8/2008.

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I agree with what you say Dan, but  what is one supposed to do? Nothing? People cannot get motgages without an LFO in Spain and I believe I read last week people cannot get  top up mortgages on their UK property to finance overseas property.  I believe people should get second opinions as to what they should do. Now that's very hard to get  impartial advise these days. They (lawyers)all want /need to make money!  It's worth paying a one off fee to a lawyer for advise and then decide from there what to do.

It was hard before the credit crunch, now it's very very very difficult to decide what to do with situations like those below especially when the dreadful exchange rate is taken into consideration.

Dan, I am amazed that you do not have a Court date for your case yet.  Maybe your case is weak as I know of people who have had hearings in far less time.  They've lost..but that's another story!

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What you are saying is all very scary. ?Have any of you got in touch with ADICAE (association of bankers users), they have a web site with an international site in English. Their VP is Fernando Herrero and perhaps we could get a petition to them signed by everyone in the forum with similar problems. A copy could go to Banco de Espana (Spanish national bank) to Miguel Angel Fernandez Ordonez.

           ?what about contacting a national newspaper?  We need to make BIG noise if it is to be heard as the forum is only useful to cry together, even if the info shared is really useful.  Come on bring ideas!

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Andenca,

Your ideas are good but it's all been done..and much much more and to people in higher places. All to no avail so far. I have been on this trail for 4 years now. I did the radio, TV (BBC 24.world news, interviewed by Sarah Pennells) Evening Standard report. , declined Granada TV and Trevor McDonald!!  People I am in contact with have written to The Court of Human Rights,  MP's, MEPs, Banks, Consulate Generals, even King Juan Carlos! Petitions have been raised. They either can't or won't interfere in another country's judicial system,or in the case of Michael Cashman, gets nowhere v e r y  slowly.

Spain is a disgrace to the EU.

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Hi Tish

All she can do is apply to the courts for a listing date and this seems a lottery.

Depends what is the meaning of strong.

1 Garden apartment which was supposed to have a 30sqm2 garden which is not there

2 The block is deemed illegal.

3 The architect refuses to sign if off.

4 Variuos structures and in particular swimming pool  had to be underpinned as the were dragging an apartment block down with it

5 No habitaion licence

6 3 years late completing the build

7100% Bank Guarantee which I paid for myself for 1,500 Euros

8 The Banks agreeing that I have a clear case to claim against the guararantee and the developer telling the Bank not to honour it as they have told them that they have complied with everything.

9 .The fact that I am having to take both the developer and the Bank to court as they are playing this perfect senario to appeal and appeal again

10 The developer has never even suggested or request I complete.just told me that they can make as many alterations to the contract apartment details they wish to make.

 

Now I dont know if any of this is cause for a strong case anymore so its back to the questions that no one appears to be able to answer

1 Will Banks ever pay out on guarantees

2 How long wil someone have to wait to firstly get judgement after the appeals and what can you do if the developer or the Banks tell you to sod off WHEN the law says it must pay out.

3 And another that those with cases should be aware of

You get to court and you have one of the many bent judges who are on the developers or Bank payroll

Do people realise that if they loose they probably will have to pay for their costs as well.

You may very well have costs awarded against them to include lost interest from the day the court deemed you should have completed..

Community fees may also be added or perhaps you may find an embargo on your property already.

Totally agree that we cant lay down and die but fact is that many may have to give up through costs related to the legals and some will die due perhaps to the pressure of the situation they find themselves in

Somehow I just have this feeling that this is the vile game they are playing and there is nothing that the most respected lawyer seem to be able to do anything about

SOMEONE TELL ME I AM WRONG AND HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR YEARS.

I started by upsetting many  years ago when I said the future will be complete or loose your deposit and every other thing I have posted telling what people dont want to hear is coming true and OH HOW I WANTED TO BE PROVED WRONG.

Just Dan

 

 

This message was last edited by Just Dan on 11/8/2008.

This message was last edited by Just Dan on 11/8/2008.

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I think you have a strong case Dan, but they are obviously choosing to ignore it/delay in the hope you will give up!

There was a Lawyers convention in Marbella recently. Maria de Castro attended. She wrote on the "Spanish Lawyers" section about it:  http://www.eyeonspain.com/Secure/ForumPostsDesc.aspx?thread=5934&dev=FB38&name=Spanish%20lawyers

The lawyer she mentions is our Lawyer. He addressed the convention. I wrote and asked if it was ........ and she said " Did I know him?" I explained  how I did and she wrote back" A brilliant man"  He is IMO a great lawyer but has been to Court many times and lost cases that  should have been won on very strong grounds 

In my heart of hearts unless some MAJOR change or intervention occurs from Brussels, there is no hope for anyone.IMHO

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It is Saturday, Jacobo is sleeping and Teresa is playing with daddy, so.. let´s see if I can add something here. Please have answers below in bold green:

 

 

 

Think the answer to this question would be very useful following my last which was pretty well ignored,that being

1 Whats the chance of getting Banks to pay out on Bank Guarantees.  It depends on Banks, but Court cases for execution of Bank Guarantees are being generally won in Courts.

2 Next question. Just how long can someone expect to wait to get the litigation to court and I am not talking about the appeal that follows if you win. Are you asking about how much time,on average,for a decission in an executive procedure? I would say, on average, 6 to 8 months.

 

I have mine which is 4 Years and not even a court date set. An executive procedure? What is your jurisdiction? That is very unusual.

I know of several of 4/5 and up to 7 years with no date set. Again, very unusal, something specially wrong happening there.

Surely these are direct questions that need answers for EVERY single person who has property problems in Spain.

 

If someone where starting today my guess and its only that

Between 5 to 7 Years to get to court

If you win then there will be an appeal and thats another 2 to 3 years. Again, that is an extremely long timeframe. I am not sayinb is not possible, but it is certainly very exceptional.

Banks simply  or whoever wont pay anyway as they cant and will just ignore court orders.  With all my respect to you, your experience and your emotions... that is not grounded. Of course a Court Decission is directly executable against the deffendant ( whoever: Insurance company, Banks, developer´s will and assets)

Now this is Just the Banks.  The chances against a developer would be worse that that

Remember you will be paying legal fees and interest throughout this period. To be recovered at the end.

I understand  and agree on Justice not being perfect, but it  certainly works in Spain. Time frames are often frustrating ...but good and persistent work bring fruits. What can I say? We are committed lawyer for the interest of our cleints... and also try to improve the Justice infastructures... difficult , challenging, but... necessary and possible.

 

Just Dan

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Hi Maria

Thanks very much for that

Think the answer to this question would be very useful following my last which was pretty well ignored,that being

1 Whats the chance of getting Banks to pay out on Bank Guarantees.  It depends on Banks, but Court cases for execution of Bank Guarantees are being generally won in Courts.

THAT BEING THE CASE WHY HAVE I NOT HEARD OF THEM

2 Next question. Just how long can someone expect to wait to get the litigation to court and I am not talking about the appeal that follows if you win. Are you asking about how much time,on average,for a decission in an executive procedure? I would say, on average, 6 to 8 months.

AGAIN I PERSOANALLY HAVE NEVER HEARD OR ANYONE GETTING THERE THAT QUICK

 

I have mine which is 4 Years and not even a court date set. An executive procedure? What is your jurisdiction? That is very unusual.

MALAGA.

I know of several of 4/5 and up to 7 years with no date set. Again, very unusal, something specially wrong happening there.

AS I SAID THIS IS FACT AND NOT UNUSUAL AS FAR AS I HAVE SEEN.

Surely these are direct questions that need answers for EVERY single person who has property problems in Spain.

 

If someone where starting today my guess and its only that

Between 5 to 7 Years to get to court

If you win then there will be an appeal and thats another 2 to 3 years. Again, that is an extremely long timeframe. I am not sayinb is not possible, but it is certainly very exceptional.

WITH RESPECT I HAVE SEEN AND CONTACT WTH MANY THAT HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM ALMOSR EVERYDAY

Banks simply  or whoever wont pay anyway as they cant and will just ignore court orders.  With all my respect to you, your experience and your emotions... that is not grounded. Of course a Court Decission is directly executable against the deffendant ( whoever: Insurance company, Banks, developer´s will and assets)

LIKE WISE BUT I AM ONLY QUOTING FROM CASES I KNOW ABOUT AND THIS IS FACT AND NOTHING TO DO WITH EMOTIONS.

Now this is Just the Banks.  The chances against a developer would be worse that that

Remember you will be paying legal fees and interest throughout this period. To be recovered at the end.

I understand  and agree on Justice not being perfect, but it  certainly works in Spain. Time frames are often frustrating ...but good and persistent work bring fruits. What can I say? We are committed lawyer for the interest of our cleints... and also try to improve the Justice infastructures... difficult , challenging, but... necessary and possible.

AS I HAVESAID LIKE YOU THERE ARE VERY COMMITED LAWYERS WHO DO AN EXCELLENT JOB FOR THERE CLIENTS BUT I KNOW OF MANY THAT ARE TOTALLY FRUSTRATED WITH THE WHOLE MESS

TISH ?

You had the most blatent case of having put a deposit down several years back and before the real heavy problems came to light.

The courts are very much busier now than when you had your dreadful problem.

Yourcase was simple(if you can call it simple) that yourproperty was denied planning and in fact a straight foward claim

HOW LONG DID IT TAKE YOU

PLEASE. ANYONE THAT HAS EVER MANAGED TO GET JUSTICE INSIDE A YEAR POST YOUR EXPERIENCES.

 

Just Dan

_______________________

Maria L. de Castro, JD, MA

Lawyer

Director www.costaluzlawyers.es

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From the time we learned our property was not going to be built to the time we got our money back took around 21 months. BUT, from the time we instructed our third lawyer who won our case ON APPEAL it took 3/4 months to get the Court hearing. We won, the bank appealed, we won the appeal. It then took  another 7ish months to get all our money + costs + interest. The huge corruption scam had not fully come to light. For the first time we were in the wrong place at the right time.....and count our blessings every time that we read of the sad demise of the thousands of others who, like us trusted the system in Spain.

Good lawyers like Maria and our Lawyer ,are trying very hard to correct the system. It's going to take a veeeeeeeeeeeery long time (if ever) to do that.

 

This message was last edited by Tish on 11/8/2008.

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Thank you Tish

Thats my point that there are many excellent lawyers in Spain like yours and Maria that are doing there damned best for their clients and to get things changed for the better

There are good judges that despair at what goes on.

I have SOOooooo much time and respect for them all but they are very aware of the fight they have.

You are aware,have helped  and given excellent support for many that have not been sorted for many years and  still no end in sight..

Now your case was an appauling abuse of the system when the real Sh-t hadnt hit the fan. What now for the 21 Months.

How the friggen hell did they have a case ti appeal and appeal again ? You had NOoooo property . HELLOOOooooo bet you had a few choice words at time gal.

Mine attended a black money conference when they all agreed the end of black money.

She got back to her office and the very next telephone call she had was from one of those that attended and no guessing what he was asking for on behalf of his client even with the risks now involved

She was spitting feathers.

ANYONE ELSE THATS HAD  CASES SORTED AND PAID OUT 

Lets hear from you please as many would love to grab hold of something.

Just Dan

 

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Hi

Just had a p/m from a long standing poster whoes case has been going on for many years

She got to court in  a quicker time than me with the view by many that she is with one of the best law firms around.

This lovely lady did get her first trial date in I think is 3+years having said that she really has devoted a massive amount of time and energy in hers and other peoples cases.

This lady won her case.earlier this year against a very wealthy developer.

This lady won an embargo over the developers assets and this was overturned.

The developer appealled and she has received notice that the case will be heard again hopefully in Sept/Oct 2009.

Assuming that appeals get back to court quicker than new cases( ie Tish posting ) she will be living the hell for 5 years ish + and of course could carry on much longer

Now this lady has won and on appeal she could very well loose and refer to my previous regarding the extensive legal costs etc and where and when will this end for her.

As I have requested please let people prove me wrong and to avoid any confusion as Spain is a big country where I am told the urgency in cases in the North issuperiour I am talking about the Malaga Costa del Sol area..

WHO ARE WINNING THESE DAMN CASES/GETTING THERE MONEY BACK

WHO ARE GETTING BANKS TO PAY OUT ON BACK GUARANTEES,

I FOR ONE GET FED UP WITH THE APPARENT MESSAGES THAT SAY

1 Late competion ? No problem just cancel the contract

2 Late completion ?No problem just call in the Bank guarantee

3 No promised golf course ? No problem Its a case of mis-selling so have your money back

4 No habitaion licence ? On that one there is said that there is little defence and as the law is the law then your money will be returned

I could go on.

Nowthis is not emotive ranter but what i have been saying for years and not making many friends at times is FACT

Tish is right and we cant give up the fight./Maria and other excellent soliciitors should never fight for change.

Many that do there very best to help and advise based on their experiences are and are such a value to many in trouble on this forum.

HOWEVER UNLESS THE FACTS ARE NOT EXPOSED THEN THE ADVICE GIVEN BY MANY IS BASED ON FACT AS THEY KNOW IT RATHER THAN TO PLEASE OTHERS THEN WHAT A WASTE OF SUCH VALUED TIME AND EFFORT.

 

Just Dan

 

 

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I have just checked with my assistant on the last executive procedure ( for the execution of a Bank Guarantee) won in Court by us. It took from May to October ( August is not counted as it is unactive in Courts), therefore 4 months. There was no oposition by the Bank.

Best regards,

 

Maria

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