Does anyone actually understand reclaiming Witholding Tax on Share Dividends if you are a UK resident

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02 Jan 2020 18:56 by Despair2 Star rating. 37 posts Send private message

Even Abaco Advisors tell me the form 210 is correctly completed 

Yet Agencie Tributaria keep rejecting it 

I have just a few hours to resolve this 

Have been battling for months 





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02 Jan 2020 19:10 by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 5239 posts Send private message

Despair.  Not sure why you said on 2nd Jan 2020 you have few hours to submit form 210.
 The tax for year 2018 had to be submitted by midnight on 31st December 2019 

 

 


This message was last edited by johnzx on 02/01/2020.



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02 Jan 2020 21:14 by Jarvi Star rating in Halifax UK and Sucin.... 722 posts Send private message

This is what you stated on your other post

"because i know how to calmly research, work through and assimilate and gather info ready for HMRC to deal with Spain ......i really dont care whether they owe me €5 or €500   it is my money and Spain is not getting it"

So I cannot understand why you keep asking people on here....





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03 Jan 2020 12:47 by ads Star rating. 4011 posts Send private message

Is the following cause for concern going forward?

Is the tax authority in Spain, as part of a tax treaty, providing an online facility that might not be fit for purpose? 
How widespread is the impact? Are the associated costs and procedures to resolve this problem proving in reality a major disincentive, which implies this might be a purposeful attempt to prevent rightful reclaim of overpayments? 

Are the UK and Spanish authorities fully aware of this problem? Have they responded or ignored the  issue?

According to Despair2 neither of them have effectively addressed the online problem as yet.

If the Spanish authorities are not responding to this scenario and " agencies" have " given up" tackling this problem then what are the UK authorities doing to support and address this issue? Are the EU authorities, for that matter, equally aware or are they turning blind eyes to this? Despair2 has identified that MEPs have not responded to his educative communications to date which begs the question are the EU Commission unaware that the Spanish Tax authorities appear to have been obstructive to date? Quite a shambles of non accountability and hardly inspires confidence in bilateral treaty arrangements!

Roberto to his credit on the other thread ( currently locked) https://www.eyeonspain.com/forums/posts-long-24292.aspx appeared to have tried to assist but even he appears to have suggested that the solution is to sell the shares if the exercise of resolving this problem has hit a brick wall !

Perhaps the lesson to learn from this is either to make the relevant authorities accountable to "correct" an interactive facility intended to assist in reclaiming over payments, which requires an educative process that Despair2 appears to have been trying to accomplish, or the message goes out loud and clear for non residents not to purchase shares in Spanish companies ( such as Santander) until such time as this online reclaim facility is seen to be fit for purpose. 

 

 





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03 Jan 2020 14:09 by Despair2 Star rating. 37 posts Send private message

If selling the shares would not result in a major capitol loss because of the shsrp practice used when the companies were switched to spain the shares might have been sold ...however it is only the last 4 yrs that IAG has produced any dividends and that Spain is using sharp practice to avoid refunding Witholding Tax ss per the Dual Tax Treaty Article 10 they signed and agreed in 2014

 

Its now up to both competant authorities to sort the mess out because one thing is very certain 

Agencie Tributaria is running on very old and out of date servers /systems inc Mozilla 68 which is quite simply not safe and in order to install their stupid digital certificate you need a qualified Computer technician and to lower the security of your computer .....not happening to mine





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03 Jan 2020 16:26 by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 5239 posts Send private message

Despair,    I guess you are aware of this :-

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/11771851/First-victim-of-Spains-gag-law-fined-for-criticising-lazy-police.html

 

 


This message was last edited by johnzx on 03/01/2020.



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03 Jan 2020 17:45 by Kavanagh Star rating in Oil Drum Lane Newcas.... 884 posts Send private message

Kavanagh´s avatar

The shares are worth whatever they are worth; holding on to them does not make them worth what you paid for them. You have already encountered a major capitol loss. That applies to all shares and all assets.

Re the thread title. Are you asking a question or telling the answer?

Is this an extension of  This thread is currently locked.



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There is enough in the world for everyone, but not enough for the greedy!



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04 Jan 2020 12:10 by ads Star rating. 4011 posts Send private message

Could the moderators please explain why the previous thread was locked...... **update.....just noticed that the thread appears to have been unlocked now and appears to have been originally locked due to inciteful postings.**

Also Johnzx could you explain the relevance of gag law to this thread as I'm confused. Is the inference that there is false news being made here or is it the opposite and that anyone bringing attention to problem areas are under threat?

Could we have some explanation here please to give some clarity to the issue that was originally raised by Despair2.

Is there a problem with the tax agency website or not? And is this resulting in people not being able to gain refunds?

Are the people affected by this specific issue those who are outside the tax threshold  and therefore entitled to a refund of tax?

Also is there a practical issue relating to translation within the website such that the form is only in Spanish, and does this go against treaty arrangements in some way? Is there a translate requirement from both sides of such an arrangement, for this to be seen as fair equitable and workable?

 

 


This message was last edited by ads on 04/01/2020.


This message was last edited by ads on 04/01/2020.



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04 Jan 2020 16:44 by Roberto Star rating in Torremolinos. 4475 posts Send private message

Roberto´s avatar

To answer your questions Ads:

I think John's reference to the so-called gagging laws was in response to Despair's comments about Spain's "stupid" digital certificates and repeated criticisms of the tax office's systems. Probably rather superfluous in this context, whether those comments are justified or not. I'm fairly sure John has not been following the thread anyway, so I would just ignore it. 

The issue raised by the OP is basically this: she previously owned UK shares in British Airways & Santander (or maybe Abbey national?) which due to mergers are now Spanish shares. Under the double taxation treaty between Spain & the UK a witholding tax of 10% can be witheld by Spain on dividend payments, but for the last 4 years Spain has retained 19.5% (or 19% more recently) and she wishes to reclaim the difference. As she does not intendto visit Spain and does not want to pay a professional for help, that leaves her with the only option being to attempt to file a claim online using form 210.

And therein lies the problem: she needs help from someone with experience of doing this, as she is experiencing various difficulties. Despite her insistence, there is no issue with the agency's website; millions of Spaniards use it daily, and I myself have in the past succesfully completed a 210 online for someone (but not submitted it using a digital certificate, which is the only option available to her). 

The website does have some English translations, but there is a disclaimer stating that any disputes arising from the use of the site will refer back to the original Spanish version. Admittedly some of the translations are poor, but I am not aware of any obligation for the tax office to provide information in English. I don't think HMRC supply info online in Spanish either. EU institutions may have to publish everything in 24 official languages, but Spain doesn't.   



_______________________

 

"First get your facts; then you can distort them at your leisure"

Mark Twain

 

 

 




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06 Jan 2020 13:24 by ads Star rating. 4011 posts Send private message

Thank you Roberto.

A few more questions I'm afraid....

Re digital certificates.... "The most common use of a digital certificate is to verify that a user sending a message is who he or she claims to be, and to provide the receiver with the means to encode a reply". 

So given the above, is it the case that old operating systems require digital certificates? Or are these certificates required by all operating systems?
What is the criteria that makes Despair2 have to use a digital certificate as opposed to those not being exposed to this in Spain? Is the problem connected to the Agencie's website's old operating system or the user of the system having an old operating system, or both?

Do you know if the 10% withholding tax was part of the agreed treaty arrangements, and if so how can Spain unilaterally change this tax?
Or is it the case that each country has its own " freedom" to decide its own withholding tax arrangements and this is why trust and safe access ( including translation facility) to the online refund facility is so important to ensure that, in this instance, UK resident shareholders are not unfairly scapegoated or discriminated against in any way when trying to gain a refund?
 

 


This message was last edited by ads on 06/01/2020.



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06 Jan 2020 14:38 by Jarvi Star rating in Halifax UK and Sucin.... 722 posts Send private message

ads I can answer part of your question

"Do you know if the 10% withholding tax was part of the agreed treaty arrangements, and if so how can Spain unilaterally change this tax?"   I have Santander shares and they have only ever taken 10% witholding tax from my dividends. It seems that Despair and possibly many others are being charged 19% for some unknown reason. I have never declared the shares on my 210 form as the 10% is taken off at source.If I were Despair I would take my case up with Equiniti as they are the ones deducting the tax on behalf of the Spanish authorities and they are Uk based unlike the Spanish tax office.





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06 Jan 2020 18:50 by Roberto Star rating in Torremolinos. 4475 posts Send private message

Roberto´s avatar

That's interesting, Jarvi. I've never heard of Equiniti, but at a glance they appear to be the nominated share trading platform for UK resident Santander shareholders, so I wonder if Despair is aware of this / has already taken the issue up with them. There must be some reason why you are only having 10% withheld, and yet Despair has been hit for the full 19%. The only thing I can think of off the top of my head, is that maybe Despair is not registered with Equiniti/Santander as a UK resident, and therefore the DTT is not being automatically applied. Doesn't quite make sense, but I can't think of anything else.

Ads, I'm not sure if I can adequately answer your questions, but I'll try. A digital certificate, issued by the Spanish authorities, allows users to access specific government services online, including various facilities offered by the tax department, and the traffic department for example. It's a kind of personal identifier. Whether or not a specific action requires a digital certificate has nothing to do with the user's operating system. It does seem rather complicated to the uninitiated, but at the end of the day the system is there as a security measure to protect the user and their sensitive information. The reason I have said Despair has to use one is because she cannot submit her claim in person in Spain, and does not want to pay for the services of a professional (who will have their own digital certificate in order to access all areas, so to speak). And since tax returns contain sensitive personal data, a digital certificate is required to submit them online. I still think it may be possible to send a claim by post to Madrid, but in all honesty I wouldn't hold my breath for a speady resolution - especially if any covering explanatory notes are in English. Just to be clear, the tax agency's website does not have an operating system as such (a user's computer has an OS), and the website itself is not insecure or outdated. It's quite possible that a digital certificate will not work on an old operating system such as Windows XP, though. 

The 10% withholding tax appears to be part of the DTT between Spain & the UK. The gross withholding tax is currently 19%, which presumably is charged to all non-resident (in Spain) shareholders on their dividends. If Spain is not aware of a shareholder's residency, I suppose the full 19% is deducted automatically. As far as I am aware, every country has the "freedom" to set it's own tax rates (including the UK, although some seem to believe that these things are dictated by "unelected bureaucrats in Brussels"). As for translations of government services, as I said before, I am not aware of any legal requirement for this; HMRC does not appear to offer their website in other languages (apart from possibly Welsh), so the fact that the Spanish tax agency's website has any English pages is a bonus really. 

Clicking through various links from Santander's website turns up info that I'm quite sure Despair has already seen, such as "If you are resident in the United Kingdom then you may be eligible to apply for a lower rate of withholding tax of 10%, or for a refund of any withholding tax deducted in excess of 10%." The same document goes on to say "All paperwork has to be submitted through a Spanish tax representative or ‘Gestoria’", which rather suggests that sending a claim by post may not work anyway. Of course, it does not help that the gestor they suggest, according to Despair, no longer exists / handles these matters. But it does then finish with "Please note that the costs of the above service may outweigh the benefits." Which brings us neatly full circle back to Despair's original request for help doing it oneself!



_______________________

 

"First get your facts; then you can distort them at your leisure"

Mark Twain

 

 

 




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06 Jan 2020 19:08 by Jarvi Star rating in Halifax UK and Sucin.... 722 posts Send private message

"The only thing I can think of off the top of my head, is that maybe Despair is not registered with Equiniti/Santander as a UK resident, and therefore the DTT is not being automatically applied". You may be right about this Roberto, I am registered with them as a UK resident. It may be possible that the Spanish tax authorities are not interested as it is Equiniti that have applied the rules not them.





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07 Jan 2020 08:41 by ads Star rating. 4011 posts Send private message

So the question now remains has this helped you Despair2?

Were you aware of Equiniti?
If this resolves the issue in some way then should this not be reported back to the UK authorities for them to advise others of a practical solution?

Or are there still outstanding problems to be resolved?





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07 Jan 2020 11:10 by Despair2 Star rating. 37 posts Send private message

Equiniti ignore all emails on the subject just as IAG and Santander doo.....oroginally both said they had no option but to deduct WHT and issued the info on reclaiming via a 210 ...the info from santander has disapeeared on the web but IAG is still there 

 

I honestly believe that Spain is simply determined to avoid paying ...but its all now with a MAP review and up to HMEpRC and AEAT to sort out ...i cant do any more 





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07 Jan 2020 12:13 by ads Star rating. 4011 posts Send private message

Oh dear.... so frustrating.

Can you update us on this thread how things transpire with the MAP process.

Hope this gets resolved not only for yourself but for others affected also.





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07 Jan 2020 13:12 by Jarvi Star rating in Halifax UK and Sucin.... 722 posts Send private message

Despair

Equiniti are regulated by the FCA and as they are the ones deducting the money and are ignoring your emails, this is what you should do "from the FCA website"

Step 1: Contact the firm directly

If you have a complaint, it is best to first ask the firm involved to put things right.

Contact the firm as soon as possible.

It is usually best to write to them so you have a record of what you say.

Complaining to a financial services firm

In general, financial services firms we regulate, must respond to your complaint in writing within 8 weeks telling you whether the complaint has been successful or why they need more time to look into it.

https://www.fca.org.uk/consumers/how-complain





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07 Jan 2020 13:13 by Roberto Star rating in Torremolinos. 4475 posts Send private message

Roberto´s avatar

I Googled "Santander UK shareholder dividends", and within five clicks found this:

https://www.shareview.co.uk/4/Info/Portfolio/santanderhelp/en/home/help/Documents/Spanish-withholding-tax-information-dividends-received-after-6%20June-2016.pdf

which I presume is the info you were originally going on. I understand that it's not a great deal of help, but it hasn't disappeared from the web!

Have you tried speaking to Equiniti on the phone? If you can't get any response from them, how about contacting the FCA? (They are listed as "authorised" by the FCA)



_______________________

 

"First get your facts; then you can distort them at your leisure"

Mark Twain

 

 

 




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07 Jan 2020 14:04 by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 5239 posts Send private message

Despair  

I just looked at the info on the link provided by Roberto.

I noted this:- 


"   Please note that the costs of the above service may outweigh the benefits. "
 





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07 Jan 2020 20:29 by angeleyes1 Star rating in Camposol & Bradford. 406 posts Send private message

angeleyes1´s avatar

Despair2 is quite entitled to take any action she feels justified to get back her €60 no matter how much it costs. There is a human rights issue here.



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When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk.



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