and of course he's willing to suspend parliament so that our elected MP's cannot vote against us crashing out the EU. 

I'd wish the same fate on Boris as Charles, but considering the Joe Brand debacle, I don't want to be accused of being for beheadings....(never mind that it would miss Boris' brain by about 6 feet)

Debate tonight on channel 4 at 6.30 pm (UK time) albeit without Boris Johnson ( he’s due to debate on Tuesday) :

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/14/boris-johnson-urged-to-debate-in-tory-leadership-tv-hustings

Sophie Ridge interview todaywith Dominic Raab :

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ega1LldmW28

Andrew Marr interview with Jeremy Hunt :

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zm4n4TIAw2U

LBC interview with Rory Stewart and Farage:

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/nigel-farage/rory-stewart-nigel-farage-olive-branch-brexit/

Tory leadership race: BBC prepares to host debate

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48673698

Results of next vote

Dominic Raab is out.....

Boris Johnson -126

Jeremy Hunt– 46

Michael Gove– 41

Dominic Raab– 30 ( out)

Sajid David– 33

Rory Stewart – 37

And all five will be in the debate tonight.

This message was last edited by ads on 18/06/2019.

https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1140885366360203264

What an eye opener this You Gov poll of Conservative Party members is.  Basically, Brexit or die is the battle cry.  

They would sacrific the UK for Brexit.   Explains why anyone would even consider Boris Johnson for PM.  

One of the principal reasons Mrs May tried to prevent a no deal exit was she knew quite well Scotland and NI will eventually leave the UK.

England and Wales as a separate state aligned closely with the USA is almost inevitable in a future no deal scenario. Such are the consequences and costs of folly.

In the You/Gov poll, 61% of conservative party members would be willing for the UK to suffer considerable economic damage to leave the EU. A clear indication that they are among the well-heeled in British society and believe they can withstand the serious economic damage. Little caring of course on the direct impact upon everyone else.

I am not sure that they are well-heeled, instead it seems to me that Brexit has become like a fundamentalist religion to them.   It is just weird.

"[The electorate] were at no stage invited to vote on whether Gordon Brown should be PM ... They voted for Tony, and yet they now get Gordon, and a transition about as democratically proper as the transition from Claudius to Nero. It is a scandal. Why are we all conniving in this stitch-up? This is nothing less than a palace coup"

Boris Johnston, Telegraph, 2007

Catch 22 scenario here if you allow yourself to look to the wider perspective....

It’s important not to dismiss the impact from EU policy decision making and Banks failures, such that the EU Commission failed to recognise the need for swift adequate measures to counter the lack of protective regulatory structures and compliance necessary to prevent disgraceful practices where hidden financial structures unethically “ bet on the system to fail”.....plus EU failure to recognise the need for measures to ensure sufficient financial reserves were put in place, leading up to and following on from the Banking crisis, and the subsequent impacts on lower income groups  unable to compensate for such a compromising financial crash where citizens were forced to find work outside their own member state. Plus the need to analyse workable  realistic growth strategies to compensate for all of the above.

All of which led to the need for austerity measures in those countries significantly compromised by growing debt.

Likewise with the failure to counter the proliferation of zero hours contracts that ensued following the increased availability of cheap  labour and relative income differentials as a consequence of the swift influx of people....again not foreseen by the EU nor responded to in a timely manner. Also the impact on the infrastructure and cohesion identified in so many EOS thread debates.

The bottom line for all too many is the desire for reform not only by National Government but also the EU, which requires a far more flexible and responsive realistic approach if trust in political establishments is ever to be regained., 

Given the present scenario, there has never been a greater need for a willingness between the EU and UK to formulate mutually acceptable deals, and develop realistic growth strategies such that innocent low income citizens are no longer used as scapegoats in an ideological manner where intransigence and lack of caring leads to division and stress for all but a few.

The EU should respect the UKs decision to leave and look forward to establishing a mutually beneficial deal, rebuild trust and cohesion, recognise the majority of citizens pride in their UK union, and stop these divisive power games and inciteful behaviour, where citizens through no fault of their own become compromised. 

What is needed IMHO is a PM who has both the strength and diplomatic skills and intellectual ability to rationalise on the detail, to fight for democracy and respect citizens vote to leave, to care sufficiently for the country’s citizens and strive to build an economy based upon the positive benefits of leaving and regaining control over the sensitive issues that led to Brexit in the first place.

National governments are equally complicit in that scenario ads. Why single out the EU?  Grenfell Tower and hundreds of other buildings fitted with inflammatory cladding. Pollution in UK rivers and oceans with plastic, the Windrush scandal. The list is long. As Britain goes it's own way with rightwing leadership. regulatory processes and controls are very likely to become less. One of the principal aims of the political right is to be free to reduce and remove EU regulation and accountability. 

If you believe Boris Johnson has the skills and intellectual capacity to rationalise detail and improve regulatory compliance you are I suggest mistaken. His election is simply the party seeking a counterweight to Farage to help the Tories win the next election. Once that's achieved the party will dump him as quickly as they did Mrs May.

Wrong assumptions made again  I’m afraid Mickeyfinn.

I never suggested only the EU were complicit, but moreover made the observation that neither was the UK singularly complicit, nor did I name a specific contender that matched the necessary criteria!

I’m far more open minded that you suggest and prefer to make judgements based upon a wide perspective of research information,which includes listening to a variety of contenders arguments, rather than stick to political or tribal soundbites.

Politicians, and on occasions some political interviewers, all too frequently misinterpret and try and manipulate opinion for their own advantage, to sensationalise for a storyline, or focus too much on personality rather than detailed factual information, as opposed to being rational and independent in the best interests of citizens.

Politicians  frequently appear  resistant to move outside restrictive boundaries of belief, which all to often compromises citizens by  their intransigence and inflexibility to respond as circumstances dictate. The EU in this regard have throughout this process appeared  intransigent and determined to stick to a particular mindset (backstop) irrespective of the impact  this has on cohesion and good trading relationships between countries,  never mind a long fought for peace process. 

This whole debacle is to save the tories. It's why Cameron had the referendum in the first place thinking it would be remain, it's why May spent 3 years negotiating with the right wing nut jobs in her own party instead of the house of commons. This lot of charlatans see a way of making money, slashing health and safety and other regulations protecting us (red tape they call it). Now they've been infiltrated by UKIP, they've turned into some sort of cult...Brexit at any costs...economy crashes...don't care...Scotland and NI bail (and we will)...don't care. The UK is being held to ransom by 160,000 in the tory party...austerity was a political and unneccessary tool of the tories...they are beneath contempt

Too many emotive generalisations without willingness to consider alternative wider perspectives where more than one political party has been complicit, whether this be bankrupting a nation or failure to regulate financial abusive practices, etc..

Classic divisive political slants rather than basing judgements on factual detail where many political parties (and the EU ) strategies have compromised citizens over the years.

Political incompetence and intransigent political dogma, far removed from the best interests of citizens, has a lot to answer for!

So sad and equally frustrating....

Let’s hope lessons will be learned with reform forthcoming ( ever the optimist!)

This message was last edited by ads on 19/06/2019.

"....strive to build an economy based upon the positive benefits of leaving"

Sorry, did I miss something? Does anybody actually still believe there are any benefits? I thought it was now embarassingly obvious to all but the dimest Express HEADLINE reader that even the candidates who campaigned for Brexit are now just hanging on to their "fundamentalist religion" for fear of admitting that they've actually monumentally c*cked up. The only reason I hear now for leaving is because "we" voted for it. That's a (pi55 poor) reason, but it's certainly not a benefit.

It would be funny, if it wasn't so sad and pathetic.

Result of 2nd vote

BJ 143

JH 54

MG 51

SJ 38

RS 27 ( out)

ads you seem to inhabit a form of Alice in Wonderland world of perspective on how political life should be conducted rather than how it really is in the actualité. Cut, thrust, dog eats dog. I don't say that's desirable it's abhorrent personally to me that's why I could never be a politician. It's just the way it is. It is also pointless being a remote idealist. It's a 'Game of Thrones' to them all and joe public is all agog. This then is how democratic governments usually conduct themselves. Eton College is the finest training ground.

Classic divisive political slants rather than basing judgements on factual detail where many political parties (and the EU)  strategies have compromised citizens over the years.

This is the essence of the job. Divide and rule. These people care not one jot how Brexit will damage Britain. What matters to them above all else is their careers and their place in history.

Since the only remaining candidate who was saying something slightly different is now out, if the other three still standing believed their own rhetoric of people being fed up and just wanting it done, why don't they just quit now and give Boris the crown? 

So fight for reform Mickeyfinn.... little in life is achieved without struggle and conviction to fight for a more accountable system, with self belief and resilience to stand up to those who have hidden agendas or malintent, to stand up to those that deny the need for adequate regulations in place to protect, or fail to be willing to learn from their mistakes

It’s defeatist to assume that  you can’t effect  measures to enhance accountability and deter abuse, and pessimistic to write off reform. 

How many for instance suggested from the outset that it was impossible to make Banks more accountable? Just look what is possible when nationals and non nationals come together with a willingness to listen to one another’s perspectives, to debate and rationalise with good intent and common purpose,  with determination and courage, to counter abuse and protect citizens rights....

Only by believing that you can make a difference when politicians or financial institutions refuse  to listen to genuine concerns, refuse to seek fair practical solutions etc, refuse  to remain open minded,  refuse to consider mutually effective  solutions, will any progress be made.

One step at a time and all that.

P.s. Given your support for the EU, I thought you would have been just as interested in the elections and possible contenders for EU Comssioners given the recent changes in EU Parliamentarians? Another thread perhaps?

https://www.google.com/search?q=provisional%20results2019%20and%20seat%20distribution%20of%20the%20outgoing%20parliament&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-m#imgrc=qvBKoBb3ug1NqM:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48280134

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/14/next-european-commission-president-candidates-and-process.html

This message was last edited by ads on 19/06/2019.

I a. Fighting for reform ads.  That is why I am fighting against a dead end no deal Brexit

Based upon what financial modelling system? A system proven to be wrong in its negative assumptions, requiring a treasury rethink? It doesn’t exactly inspire confidence when the treasury have to adapt their modelling system to one more realistic and proven to be more accurate by those who it was swift to criticise, again without remaining more open minded and reflect that they needed to change.

But also comprehend wider issues such as the changes occurring in car manufacturing, where it is inevitable that change had to be better structured and forward planned, where climate change and the advent of technology will make an immense mark on citizens lives.....but focus  on positive solutions and regulatory structures instead of constantly pointing fingers or exacerbating the problems by lack of good intellectual debate.

One small example and a recent positive note has been the development of a hydro train in the UK built by good collaboration between university and industry. There are so many possibilities to develop given  technological change, and the UK needs to focus on its people to plan ahead, retrain where possible, but never lose sight of the need to remain a caring and inclusive nation.

But that aside, if you want no deal then why not pressure the EU establishment to stop their intransigent approach to the backstop, or on a far wider issue, to make them more accountable for the way they assess member state differentials in terms of debt, housing, etc , the need to make the Banks far more accountable for their failures that directly impact citizens ( look to the glut of housing in Spain and the lack of housing in the UK!!!) and the need to establish realistic growth models to better forward plan for individual states requirements, where a far more flexible realistic approach is required to lessen the pressures on cohesion.....

IMHO, too  little debate on real issues that have emanated from EU decision making, or lack of, issues that take account of citizens growing concerns and insecurities, To bury ones head in the sand or to suggest you can never change the status quo, serves little purpose, other than to embolden those who have different agendas which have sadly scapegoated all too many citizens in that process.

I would ask the EU establishment to listen to citizens concerns, to widen the scope of intellectual analysis and reflect upon mistakes with a view to learning and regaining trust and most importantly rebuild cohesion. To ensure that they face up to uncomfortable  realities.  Too  much tribalism, division and arrogant behaviour and too little focus on establishing flexible stabilising mechanisms intended to protect.

Setting aside your own instransigent avoidance of uncomfortable realities etc etc etc for a moment (just teasing, please don't report me for inciting), I ask again: Does anybody actually still believe there are any benefits to leaving? From this latest essay, am I to understand that the lack of affordable housing in the UK will be solved by leaving?